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  #26  
Old 05-09-2007, 02:47 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Yep, Phil. There’s no getting away from sex! And it has always interested me how much great religious art, sitting in churches and cathedrals worldwide, is SO sexy! Bernini! How on earth did he ever get some of his stuff agreed! Michelangelo, too. All that power and sex!
However, Bernini was an absolute master carver (although I do not like the perfect finish he was so committed to – it IS stone, not drapery and flesh) and Michelangelo reinvented carving, with some of his best pieces left criss-crossed, like drawings, with the claw chizel. Mark Quinn is different. His work ONLY displays the techniques and stylistic devices of the Italian commercial stone carving studio. Next time you are in Italy, look at all those gravestones of Madonnas and Christs in Italian cemeteries. Stylistically, exactly as Quinn’s work. The hair! The Lapper and Moss pieces are CARVED without thought to meaning or significance. Oh, sure. There is meaning and significance here, but only in terms of reference and allusion. The work itself is a denial of carving, of sculpting, of working intelligently with the tool. Quinn is exploiting a manufacturing process here, like shop mannequins. In fact, he could have achieved all he had to say by using a shop mannequin – the same blandness, the same empty, unattractive sexuality, the skinny adolescent body fixation of immature males, the faces that offer a pose not a person…. Dreadful, unthinking work, it seems to me. And it’s not good enough to say that he is representing a culture when he does this. The culture can represent itself all too well. Quinn’s work fails to offer a perspective on the shallow, screwed-up values of the world he represents here – more failure, either of vision or of artistic distance.
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  #27  
Old 05-09-2007, 05:33 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantab
Yep, Phil. There’s no getting away from sex! And it has always interested me how much great religious art, sitting in churches and cathedrals worldwide, is SO sexy! Bernini! How on earth did he ever get some of his stuff agreed! Michelangelo, too. All that power and sex!
However, Bernini was an absolute master carver (although I do not like the perfect finish he was so committed to – it IS stone, not drapery and flesh) and Michelangelo reinvented carving, with some of his best pieces left criss-crossed, like drawings, with the claw chizel. Mark Quinn is different. His work ONLY displays the techniques and stylistic devices of the Italian commercial stone carving studio. Next time you are in Italy, look at all those gravestones of Madonnas and Christs in Italian cemeteries. Stylistically, exactly as Quinn’s work. The hair! The Lapper and Moss pieces are CARVED without thought to meaning or significance. Oh, sure. There is meaning and significance here, but only in terms of reference and allusion. The work itself is a denial of carving, of sculpting, of working intelligently with the tool. Quinn is exploiting a manufacturing process here, like shop mannequins. In fact, he could have achieved all he had to say by using a shop mannequin – the same blandness, the same empty, unattractive sexuality, the skinny adolescent body fixation of immature males, the faces that offer a pose not a person…. Dreadful, unthinking work, it seems to me. And it’s not good enough to say that he is representing a culture when he does this. The culture can represent itself all too well. Quinn’s work fails to offer a perspective on the shallow, screwed-up values of the world he represents here – more failure, either of vision or of artistic distance.
I agree with your points, and I think it's revealing on the position our current contemporary art current tries to "set in stone" ;-)

Sexyness
Yes, I'm always astonished to see how sexy and even sometime arousing the sculptures are. Religious ones are at a good position in the top 10

I particularly loved the parallel of Richard Deacon (a sculptor whose work I _love_) between his sculpture (and the incredible feeling of attraction you get to it) and the reference he was using which most of us are familiar with, Gregor Erhart’s sculpture of Mary Magdeleine.



Techniques and revolution of expression
I think every new technique has been concomitant with new current of expression. I cannot say if it's the effect or the cause. I'm much more thinking in a Simondonian kind of way that there were fields of possibilities that existed and some individuation in term of artists, art production and used techniques were the meeting point of different force vectors.

Concept in denial of technique
It's very much a trend in the contemporary art dogmas: creators on one side, mystified, pop-starified with their "critical eye" and not their "mastery genius"; and on the other hand, the technicians, the doers. I agree that it takes sometime 10 years to acquire a technique and 10 years to forget about it, i.e. to free yourself from the mental constraint it created in yourself. So it's easier to separate the two from day one into two different people, but the flip side of it is that new possibilities or art exploration perspective also come from doing it and researching way to do things. Thus the feeling of "rarefaction" where you seem to be seeing always the same things.
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  #28  
Old 05-09-2007, 07:42 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Phil - I also wonder what Quinn is proposing to do by ‘setting in stone’ what seems alien to it. After all, a sculptor/artist preoccupied with modernity might be better using modern materials – as with Rachel Whiteread’s use of resin. When Whiteread uses her other favourite medium, plaster casting, she uses the medium in a subtle way that evokes the history of the material and its rich allusions. Since you can’t do this with resin she uses this medium for different purposes. Why make Moss sculptures in marble and bronze? I would say, for the same reason as Whiteread uses plaster. But the Quinn sculptures of Moss in marble and bronze appear to DENY the history of these media by simply not recognising them and what Whiteread might call the ‘memory’ of the culture that resides in some media.
The techniques of mass production are also perhaps better applied to modern media, rather than to stone and bronze. Quinn’s pieces deny the hand (they are stripped of the sense of an artist at work, as with Michelangelo’s pieces) in a way that is typical of much modernist sculpture and art. So why use the media of the hand?? I also think one of the reasons why these sculptures are often described as lifeless is the use of media that have, by tradition, been used to represent and express personal emotion, artistic individuality and technical brilliance. If you go abstract, you can get over these problems; if you go figurative you can't help but evoke this grand tradition. This is what makes his work disappointing. The carving of the good stonemason is OK for the cemetery, but fails in the gallery.

Last edited by Cantab : 05-09-2007 at 04:03 PM.
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  #29  
Old 05-10-2007, 08:19 AM
CroftonGraphics CroftonGraphics is offline
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Why doesnt he make Kate Mosses sculpture from a bundle of hello magazines and a lot of white powder ie (cocaine).

I think then it would be interesting (ha ha) as it would evoke celebrity culture and if Quinn thinks she is the new venus then it is fitting she should be forged from the materials that the media portrays her, made up from thrown away tabloid papers and drugs.

Throw away materials for a throw away trash culture.

I dont personally make judgements of people like Moss, posh and becks and all these plastic celebrities, I do not know them and have no wish to either, I just dont like the media of portrayal of them......
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  #30  
Old 05-10-2007, 11:03 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

This guy is visibly mirroring the work of American "artist" Daniel Edwards, who also sculpts pop icon/celebrities in absurd, provocative or scandalous poses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Edwards

Hard to call someone relying on lifecasts a real "sculptor" in my book, since the cut and past method doesn't really give much credence to one's proficiency as a sculptor.

Low-brow, low-taste art in it's purist form. Sorry reflection of a culture's naive ability to embrace talentless exploitation of celebrity to gain recognition.

Maybe if I go sculpt Jessica Simpson in some lewd position I can make enough money to make real art. Or Michael Jackson with a . . . . naaah.

Mort
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  #31  
Old 05-10-2007, 01:51 PM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Excellent post, Mort! Is it just me, or do others find life casts somehow rather lifeless, unlike the hand-sculpted alternative? How do you get the character of the person, or the spirit of an idea, into a life cast? I'm beginning to feel that Anthony Gormley's reliance on casts, once rather 'zen', is now more like dead. But maybe that's what happens when an idea is overused.

Last edited by Cantab : 05-11-2007 at 06:29 AM.
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  #32  
Old 05-12-2007, 06:45 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CroftonGraphics
Why doesnt he make Kate Mosses sculpture from a bundle of hello magazines and a lot of white powder ie (cocaine).

I think then it would be interesting (ha ha) as it would evoke celebrity culture and if Quinn thinks she is the new venus then it is fitting she should be forged from the materials that the media portrays her, made up from thrown away tabloid papers and drugs. ...
Why? Because it would be considered as trivial by the contemporary art market. And they need to pretend works are sophisticated.

As was said, I think he's using stone and bronze in order to create a contrast: technical mastery, without the technical guy behind on the forefront, without the media tell-tale marks that are specific to it. Some post-modern 3-level quantic state that creates the play, what we call here "mise en abime" (play of/on abyss). Well... it _could_ even be nice if there was something touching in his play, if it _worked_. But at least from what I've seen it's a failure.

I laughed about the Michael Jackson and chimp joke that was made too, but some of Jeff Koons work actually _work_ and that's all I'm concerned with.

Now that critics are completely under the law of the contemporary art market, with NONE daring to say they _don't_ like an artist, the view has been polarized: the market says "oh nice, wonderful" and the rest shouts "s h i t". In fact, the critics don't dare anymore because 1/ they fear to blow up they track record and career by criticizing a future top artist, 2/ they don't dare to say when a top artist produces bad works. Ahaha.... of course, sane and clean will come from the bottom: blog comments.

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  #33  
Old 05-14-2007, 02:48 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Phil – re post 32. I have seen waste materials being used creatively, and to the ends we might consider Quinn to be pursuing,

Regarding the use of stone and bronze – you make an interesting point about “technical mastery, without the technical guy being on the forefront.” I think this may be true. 20th century art history can be defined in terms of the fear of technical mastery, and the aesthetic trap it creates. And it still seems to be a problem today. BUT, I come back to the HAIR! Look at the Alison Lapper and Kate Moss hair on these works. The technical mastery of the artist has been replaced by the formulaic representations of the graveyard, and I mean that literally and metaphorically. If the artist steps back, and he is only present in the ideation, then formula replaces creativity at the level of physical creation.

I noticed recently, too, that a favourite artist of mine, Rachel Whiteread, has gone for a group of ready-made doll houses and arranged them in a gallery. Looks horrific, and why? Again, the artist has retreated behind the work, and the art itself exhibits the craft and design formulas of manufacturers. How much BAD art do we have to look at to get through to the artist behind?

Last edited by Cantab : 05-14-2007 at 03:40 AM.
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  #34  
Old 05-14-2007, 10:31 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantab
How much BAD art do we have to look at to get through to the artist behind?
A lot more I think, Ripley's believe it or not is listed as a museum and is apparently where many contemporary critics get their formal education.

She belongs there with a dime slot close to her nose to make her perform some unspecified act of foolishness.
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  #35  
Old 05-23-2007, 10:01 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlion
I think you mean the National Gallery, London. Very few here would have the chance. So show us a picture or two.
http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cg...rkNumber=L1011

Artists' name is actually Agostino di Duccio (1418-1481)


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  #36  
Old 05-23-2007, 10:40 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Thanks Boatbird. And welcome to this forum.

Let me see, I asked about this in post #21 above. What you showed is not really what JSSculptor was talking about in post #20, is it?

He said, "Oh and by the way...the National Gallery has (This is a gallery of painters basically) just added to its walls a carving, marble relief, by Agostino Di Duchio, stunning. This is, was sculpture. If you get the chance check it out.
Sorry Mr Quinn but this IS carving, subtle, superb and created just a few years earlier than your efforts...."
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  #37  
Old 05-23-2007, 11:02 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Yes, its the relief from the Sainsbury Wing of the National Gallery in London... sorry I should have quoted post number..

I've seen it a couple of times, I'm not entirely sure why it's in the collection of the NG, almost everything else they show/exhibit/own are all paintings.
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  #38  
Old 05-23-2007, 03:02 PM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

You are definitely right !
should the title be "Swann", certainly nobody would pay attention to this so called sculpture.
Looks like computer assisted carving from a 3D draw. not interesting at all. The very kind of sculpture i am used firing at sometimes, just as if I were at a shooting gallery.
Maybe it will be better in bronze provided there is a nice patina ???
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  #39  
Old 08-08-2007, 05:30 PM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

The artist has made a new larger version of this sculpture. A picture can be found in this link.

YOU LITTLE SPHINX

Aug 8, 2007, BRITISH artist Marc Quinn is dusting off designs for his naked, yoga-contorted sculpture of Kate Moss, which toured the Netherlands last year, to create a new version for display in the UK. A three-metre [10 ft] high version of Myth (Sphinx) will be crafted from white-painted bronze will sit ...... at the upcoming Beyond Limits sale of modern and contemporary sculpture at Chatsworth House in Derbyshire. Quinn - famed for his controversial sculpture Alison Lapper Pregnant, which currently resides in Trafalgar Square – claims Moss embodies the perfect modern muse. ....... Alex Platon, a specialist in modern art at Sotheby's, agrees the sculpture packs a punch. "Myth (Sphinx) is a blow-away piece: she has a completely mesmerising, Medusa-like effect," he tells today's G2. "It is a real testament to the compelling, tantalising, power of beauty."
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  #40  
Old 08-08-2007, 08:11 PM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

I remember finding on an article in a magazine about this artist. I skimmed it and looked at the images. In one set of pieces, he had included the medication that his subjects took in the casting(?) (can't remember the process) of the sculptures of them. I think this is a good example of a technique that some artists try that is doomed to failure, because art is visual, and you can't tell just by looking at these works the sort of significance that the artist wants to convey! There was also an image of a monumental sculpture of a person who lacks some limbs. I felt it was so sterile. I hope the sculpture is attempting to bring dignity/sympathy/whatever to the subject, but I felt completely unable to empathize. Now maybe it worked for others. Just because I don't appreciate it doesn't mean it isn't good; some artists most people like greatly I just don't get fired up about. But these are my thoughts on this artist.
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  #41  
Old 08-14-2007, 03:18 PM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

I'm reading this thread and looking at the pictures of live Kate Moss and the 'Yoga Mannequins' and I am thinking I would be more interested in seeing pictures of sculptures made by Kate Moss. I mean, why not? She probably isn't art trained or particularly interested in sculpture (maybe she is, I didn't check) but I bet her celebrity would be enough to get her a London gallery show and a few write ups in the tabloids and the Arts and Leisure sections of more 'serious' daily papers.

Give Kate Moss 50-100 pounds of air dry clay + a bucket full of doll parts/drawer handles/plastic cutlery and a day to make something with it - come back when the clay is dry and spray paint the whole thing white or gold and the result would be more interesting to look at than these Yoga Mannequin things. If she promised to donate a portion of any sales to charity (she already does a bunch of charity stuff) she could get a ton of good press (to counter the whole 'COCAINE BAD' thing she has now) and maybe get a bunch of other celebrities to jump in on the action.
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  #42  
Old 08-28-2008, 06:52 PM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

It is almost eerie to stumble across a conversation that has been gathering dust in the attic for a couple of years. Perhaps the posters now have different opinions than those shown here. It is also a little intimidating to walk in on a group of unknown people. Perhaps you are all experts in the field or perhaps not. Should one kowtow to expert opinion or is each of us an 'expert' in the internet world?

Rodin used maquettes. Obviously others did too. Does that make those of you who mock an artist for using assistants or 'contractors' ignorant? I don't know.

All discussions that profess to address the question of 'what is art?' seem to me to be elitist. When my child daubs paint on paper (or the walls) it is art. When Joe Smut draws on toilet walls it is art. If it is a thousand years old it is ore likely to be considered art than if it was scrawled yesterday afternoon. A feeling for the stone? We have no idea whether an artist has a feeling or what it may be. Ask him or her? Absurd. Guess nd you can be sure you are wrong.
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  #43  
Old 08-28-2008, 07:35 PM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Quote:
Originally Posted by travelyen View Post
It is almost eerie to stumble across a conversation that has been gathering dust in the attic for a couple of years. Perhaps the posters now have different opinions than those shown here. It is also a little intimidating to walk in on a group of unknown people. Perhaps you are all experts in the field or perhaps not. Should one kowtow to expert opinion or is each of us an 'expert' in the internet world?

Rodin used maquettes. Obviously others did too. Does that make those of you who mock an artist for using assistants or 'contractors' ignorant? I don't know.

All discussions that profess to address the question of 'what is art?' seem to me to be elitist. When my child daubs paint on paper (or the walls) it is art. When Joe Smut draws on toilet walls it is art. If it is a thousand years old it is ore likely to be considered art than if it was scrawled yesterday afternoon. A feeling for the stone? We have no idea whether an artist has a feeling or what it may be. Ask him or her? Absurd. Guess nd you can be sure you are wrong.
"elitist" is far too timid and limiting a word to describe discussions about Art. A mere elitist discussion might involve such crudisms as metaphysics, quantum mechanics or macro-economics. If you want to talk about Art you simply must be in possession of singular vision and a vigor and output that makes the busybodies around you appear to be standing still (and yes, there are imaculately inspired children and cave-men who fall into this category). The real Art "expert" knows all too well that context, history, current-events and popular culture are no more impactful upon the creative process than a silly altercation, a mishap or the passing of time by the gulping-in of a thick book. The world is lousy with elitists - what damned artist would even bother to notice them?

Last edited by evaldart : 08-28-2008 at 10:57 PM.
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  #44  
Old 08-28-2008, 07:52 PM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

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Originally Posted by travelyen View Post
Perhaps you are all experts in the field or perhaps not. Should one kowtow to expert opinion or is each of us an 'expert' in the internet world?

You can accept or reject an opinion based on its own merits. Who is being asked to kowtow?

Rodin used maquettes. Obviously others did too. Does that make those of you who mock an artist for using assistants or 'contractors' ignorant? I don't know.

Maquettes are small study models. What does this have to do with using assistants? ( personally, I don't have an issue with artists using assistants. It is the quality of the result that matters to me.)

All discussions that profess to address the question of 'what is art?' seem to me to be elitist.

I guess that makes us all elitists, who grapple with basic core issues, or are so bold as to actually have opinions.

When my child daubs paint on paper (or the walls) it is art. When Joe Smut draws on toilet walls it is art.

With definitions this broad, who needs things like words and definitions?

If it is a thousand years old it is ore likely to be considered art than if it was scrawled yesterday afternoon.

Some famous stone monuments have graffiti carved into them from various past ages. Most people describe such inscriptions as grafitti, not art, despite their being hundreds or thousands of years old. But it is true that a thousand years ago there was less confusion about what was considered art, so things made with the intention of being art back then are more likely to be considered art today, as compared to, for example, a dog turd with a flag in it.

A feeling for the stone? We have no idea whether an artist has a feeling or what it may be. Ask him or her? Absurd. Guess nd you can be sure you are wrong.
It sounds like you are finding fault with people who react to what is presented to them as art and who leave the safety and comfort of silence to express their opinions. And if those opinions are tempered by the results of years of focused inquiry and experience in creating art, they are labeled "elitist". Would a surgeon asked to comment on the merits of a surgical procedure be labeled "elitist" as well?

If we are unable to assess an artists' feelings, we are still left with presentation of those feelings in the form of their art. If we as viewers respond with our own feelings about the work, why does that response lack merit in your view?
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  #45  
Old 08-28-2008, 10:51 PM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Well, maybe I'll get nicer as I age, but I doubt it. Quinn just made another one of Moss, whom he considers to be the modern aphrodite. It's 110 lbs of solid gold and is purported to have cost 2.5 million dollars to produce.. A very small part of me is envious at the "success" of a hand full of artists whom I consider to be clowns and another part of me feels sorry for them. It's no different in any other field, look at all the musicians who went to school and became extremely good just to make 20 bucks an hour teaching and those who can't even read or play a note making millions. I think it was Sophocles who said there are men with titles (wealth and fame) and those who deserve them..
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  #46  
Old 08-29-2008, 09:02 AM
donnadodsonarti donnadodsonarti is offline
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Looks like Liza Lou's self portrait- http://deitch.com/artists/sub.php?artistId=14
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  #47  
Old 08-29-2008, 09:03 AM
donnadodsonarti donnadodsonarti is offline
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

Liza Lou
Self Portrait, No. 2 (The Heretic), 2004, cast polyester resin, steel, glass beads, 30h x 22w x 18d inches, Photograph © Douglas M. Parker Studio
Front view
http://deitch.com/projects/slide_pop...ame=Liza%20Lou
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  #48  
Old 08-29-2008, 09:06 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

I'm sorry... I got four fifths of the way through a reply when the page collapsed and I got a 'page has expired' notice. I haven't the heart to do it again. It's bed time. What kind of a site has a 'page expired' notice and disappears???
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  #49  
Old 08-29-2008, 09:21 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

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Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
We all have commented much on the subject of these statues so dependent on current tabloidica. This is just another. Another over-priced, under-sculpted thing designed to engage a viewer by means of name-recognition and some titilation. I guess its kind of amusing, but it doesn't look like her. I would much prefer the Giacometti version - elongated and monsterous, eliciting intensity, and scaring the hell outta me even without a face.
i agree.
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  #50  
Old 08-29-2008, 10:32 AM
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Re: Meet Kate Moss - contorted

I disagree with virtually everyone here. I like it for precisely all the reasons you hate it. That is what makes it so successful, wonderful actually. I do note that the most vocal nay sayers are also the least likely to enjoy contemporary art. So be it.
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