Why Beauty Matters........

[GlennT]

Originally Posted by grommet

Glenn, you have much to learn about nurturing, as well. Acknowledge & celebrate the gains.

Okay, by a show of hands, how many of you sculptors out there would like me to nurture you?

[grommet]

Originally Posted by GlennT

Okay, by a show of hands, how many of you sculptors out there would like me to nurture you?

If you're gonna take a poll, get all the info, or it's just another misleading survey.

Glenn, you have much to learn about nurturing, as well. Acknowledge & celebrate the gains.
You'll note I said "until". Rather than squash his new-found wings, you might instead give him feathers for later.

Okay, that sounds insipid, but try not to urinate on the cake, at the very least.

Who here appreciates encoragement with candor?

[Giotto]

Originally Posted by chris 71

real art is our trying to fathom that place.
that freedom to be creator.

This last bit is what I agree with. "Freedom" for me IS THE ABILITY TO TAKE MY VISIONS AND DREAMS AND BRING THEM INTO REALITY. Before I gained any skills I had little freedom...now I feel I can tackle any challenge I choose. I am not bound by the rules but rather I can transcend them...therein is "true" freedom.

G

[cheesepaws]

Originally Posted by GlennT

Okay, by a show of hands, how many of you sculptors out there would like me to nurture you?

I'll pass - but what you wrote below rings true to me.

Originally Posted by GlennT

Chris, I find the big flaw in your thinking being the concept that freedom means being free from something. True freedom is a matter of directing will as you choose. That includes the freedom to acknowledge, pay homage to, or be inspired by anything. The freedom you describe sounds like you would be most free if you were born the sole man on the moon. That might be an empty page and a blank slate, but not the freedom I would choose.

[chris 71]

well i wasent looking for any nurturing or hand holding i truly felt i had come to an intelligent and profound conclusion. i respect and hold everyones opinions here high, and think of you all as some very advanced individulas. just trying to play with the big kids i guess. still though i believe in what i say... usually untill the next delusion of grandure comes knocking oh well

[jOe~]

True freedom is a matter of directing will as you choose.

Close, but not close enough. What if the "you" that is doing the choosing is repressed, deluded, or just plain nuts? As William James said: "A great many people think they are thinking when they are actually rearranging their prejudices".

[GlennT]

Originally Posted by jOe~

Close, but not close enough. What if the "you" that is doing the choosing is repressed, deluded, or just plain nuts?

Are you suggesting that the "repressed" are not entitled to express freedom?
Who is gauging repression anyways? If I don't want to stand nude at a bus stop, does that make me repressed?
Who is judging "deluded"? We would probably each judge the other deluded in some areas. "Just plain nuts?" What about pistachios?

Your objection is like taking this statement;

"Running is good exercise."

And having to change it to this:

"Running is good exercise.*

* If you still have both legs."

People thrive with wisdom, lawyers with convoluting language so as to obscure meaning.

[jOe~]

Are you suggesting that the "repressed" are not entitled to express freedom?

You are not understanding--at all. EVERYONE is entitled to all the freedom possible or imagined. Ok??? But, if your efforts to express your will only serve to reinforce self limiting beliefs, how free are you really? And yes, you are free to be uptight, nervous, anxious, or happy, delirious or what ever. Again, the point is that your choices may not be as free or freeing as you imagined them to be. Read the William James quote again. Yes, I know I've used it several times before.

[GlennT]

Believe it or not, I already understood your point. But we live in a schoolroom, Earth, where we have the freedom to experiment with free will and learn from its use or misuse. These acts create karma, good or bad, that then can form the conditions of limitation that you mention.

So if self-limitation is part of an individual's karma, the soul is still learning from its use of free will. Their excercise of directing will may not be "true freedom" relative to one who has greater self-mastery, but it is true freedom for the palce at which they are at, and to learn the lessons that are needful there.

As long was we are unascended humans on Earth, we cannot know ultimate Freedom. But our experience of freedom is an important element to help us evolve. My point to Chris was that this has little to do with denying the world around us, but rather accepting what is, learning from that which is helpful, and finding ways to transcend limitations.

[chris 71]

Originally Posted by jOe~

Close, but not close enough. What if the "you" that is doing the choosing is repressed, deluded, or just plain nuts? As William James said: "A great many people think they are thinking when they are actually rearranging their prejudices".

joe im trying to understand what you mean, i know your talking to glenn but are you saying that im rearranging my prejudices?

and your quote about "A great many people think they are thinking when they are not and what if the you is repressed or nuts or whatever

do you think that nutty people are incapable of thinking straight? havent there been a great many people through history that have been a little nutty, and this nuttyness has actully helped them to think in a different way to figure things out that straight minded folks have missed?

and i learned a great lesson the other day about judging people. i have been bad at that im trying to not do this.
i was at a centre were mentaly ill people go to use the internet. there was a lady there that constantly was talking away to her self.
with what seemed to me to be just jibberish. she was sitting beside me and her constant talking to her self was getting in the way of me being able to think.
i wished she would shut up. and thought she was one of the most messed up people there.
she was talking about finishing her book. i thought she was just yammering on bout nothing.
what a surprise i got when on another day i went there and there she was pappers scattered all over the desk.
i took a closer look and there was a book with her picture and i started reading turns out she is a award winning literary schoolar. i read some of her book it was a book of poetry and her poems were beautiful. i was amazed and said to my self i will try to never judge anyone else again

[jOe~]

joe im trying to understand what you mean, i know your talking to glenn but are you saying that im rearranging my prejudices?

Sorry Chris for any confusion. My comments were directed at Glenn.

[StevenW]

Originally Posted by jOe~

But, if your efforts to express your will only serve to reinforce self limiting beliefs, how free are you really?

See "Dunning Kruger effect".

Freedom is not a stack of dominos (individual liberties) piled one on top of the other by number and we are all "limited" (denied an infinite supply of liberties) simply by the world we live in.

[jOe~]

See "Dunning Kruger effect".

Interesting. What I was pointing to was the usual basic psychological mechanisms of defensiveness, delusion, denial, repression, etc. in support of one's defensiveness, delusion, denial, repression, etc..

[GlennT]

jOe, I certainly do not want you judging my freedom or exercise thereof.

[Giotto]

Interesting article on Beauty and Ugliness, gets into the pleasure of beauty and outlines some of Kants thoughts on the nature of beauty....

New Dictionary of the History of Ideas | 2005 | Lorand, Ruth

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3424300078.html

G

[grommet]

Nice compilation that serves to highlight beauty as not a universal truth, but as a baseline default.
That is not to say that something beautiful cannot have further meaning (you thought I was dumb enough to dig that hole?... well, not today anyway..)but because of its more accessible nature (if you have standard notions of beauty) your work will be more easily digested. Whether the viewer gets the whole message is another question.

[jOe~]

jOe, I certainly do not want you judging my freedom or exercise thereof.

WHY would I want to do that??? You obviously relish the person you are and there is nothing I can say that would dissuade you from the path you are on. Fantastic. Conviction. Peace of Mind. As I said in post 233:

And yes, you are free to be uptight, nervous, anxious, or happy, delirious or what ever.

[GlennT]

Originally Posted by jOe~

But, if your efforts to express your will only serve to reinforce self limiting beliefs, how free are you really?

This, jOe, is the judgement to which I refer. If that alone is not clear, an example:

Let us say that someone, using free will and inspiration, decides to sculpt an angel, and that angel is to go in a church. You might conclude that the artist is not truly free because of a "self-limiting" belief in angels, or in any doctrine connected with the church. You would be entitled to think that, yet have no clue as to what actually occured in the artist's thoughts and feelings and connection to a higher realm while sculpting the angel. You would merely be looking at the work through a narrow prism of what you think of angels and religion, and on the basis of that perspective think that such efforts were reinforcing self-limitation.

[Ries]

Originally Posted by GlennT

Let us say that someone, using free will and inspiration, decides to sculpt an angel, and that angel is to go in a church. You might conclude that the artist is not truly free because of a "self-limiting" belief in angels, or in any doctrine connected with the church. You would be entitled to think that, yet have no clue as to what actually occured in the artist's thoughts and feelings and connection to a higher realm while sculpting the angel. You would merely be looking at the work through a narrow prism of what you think of angels and religion, and on the basis of that perspective think that such efforts were reinforcing self-limitation.

He "might" also think that real angels have moustaches, and you did it wrong.

In point of fact, ANYONE "might" think virtually ANYTHING.

Which is one of the side effects of freedom.

But what possible difference does it make?

we are all, effectively, free, to think whatever we want, and to make whatever art we want.

And, whether you "want" us to judge your opinions, artwork, or politics, or not, every single human on earth is free to do so.

again- so what?

Nothing in this thread so far has convinced me that "beauty" is a constant, definable thing that can be agreed upon outside of any one persons brain.
Or that "beauty" matters, in any way, any more than any artificial construct of the individual brain.

You like what you like.
I will like what I like.

In some cases, there may be overlap.

Or not.

[jOe~]

You might conclude that the artist is not truly free because of a "self-limiting" belief in angels, or in any doctrine connected with the church

You are putting up a "pretend argument" and then proceed to try to win the argument. I haven't concluded " that the artist is not truly free because of a "self-limiting" belief in angels, or in any doctrine connected with the church". Those are your defensive words. I have not concluded anything about such imaginary artists. I have no freekin' clue as to what a belief in angels feels like. How it affects your perspective of the world. I can not comment on what church doctrine does to or for people. Most of the people I know are very serious about their faith, yet it affects each person differently. Some can justify any kind of behavior without crossing over into the realm of "sin". One, who is tattooed from head to toe and face, drinks like crazy, but is a 25 year old virgin. What the heck do I know about the affects of church doctrine except that it is not for me. Angels, I've never seen one. Are they invisible? I really don't know. Whatever.

[grommet]

i think it's cool the way Joe can flatten himself out so there's nothing to grab onto or claw. It's almost ...beautiful.:rolleyes:

[GlennT]

Originally Posted by jOe~

You are putting up a "pretend argument" and then proceed to try to win the argument.

I used an example of angels and a church, but that was not the point, and it was not neccessarily reflective of your perspective. The entire point was that you put out there the idea of "self-limiting beliefs" as a caveat to expressing true freedom, yet that can be a very subjective idea. I tried to use an example that we could both understand, but perhaps not.

If you want to convince me that you do not think religion is full of self-limiting beliefs, fine. I actually think it is. In fact, a huge point of religion is to place limits on one's self, limits that align one (hopefully) with God's will, and shun the false identity of the perverted human ego. After a while if all goes well, one realizes that those so-called limits lead one to experience a much greater freedom than one had when caught in the miasma of the unfettered lower self.

[grommet]

one might think one just reinforces the concept of hierarchy by excercising one's faith to feel better about one's life and then encouraging others to do likewise. One enjoys the idea of a blender full of different people each doing their own unique thing & then just slurping up the contents. mmmm, meat. maybe I'll go for the veggie smoothie instead.

[StevenW]

I forget how we went from beauty to freedom, but yes, freedom is beautiful.

[jOe~]

i think it's cool the way Joe can flatten himself out so there's nothing to grab onto or claw. It's almost ...beautiful.

I'm blushing.