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Old 09-26-2007, 09:21 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Originally Posted by GlennT
Yes, please move on from there. If you can escape from horse-donkey-zebra-mule examples
How about a dog and a pig? two male donkeys? a deer and a dog? a cat and a rabbit? a dog and a cat? just to name 5 off the top of my head that pictures and in the case of the donkeys- a video are available of.

Maybe a male tiger and a dog count;

And a dog with a lion;

My dog tried to hump a monkey once
This is not as unusual as you may think, in fact captive apes have attempted to have sex with human caretakers, there are many examples and while not considered "common" it happens enough it's hardly rare or isolated either.
Male lions and giraffs weill even cuddle and show signs of homosexual acts, especially when females are not available- National Geographic who filmed a documentary on this;

Cultural Gothic, the goat piece. is pretty sedate for McCarthy- many of his works
I noted that when I looked at his portfolio, one involves feces, so cultural gothic is not a surprise.

Artwork only affects the brain. If your brain is made uncomfortable,
I agree, a person does not have to go and seek out art to look at that they would be offended by, get offended, and then complain about it.

The artist is not advocating sex with goats, he is using the subject SYMBOLICALLY
It would be interesting to get his views and comments directly, anything else is speculation on our parts as to meaning and motives, but in any event the controversy in the work did it's job.

Enumclaw Washington man who died
I have the DVD and I know who he was, his complete story, and I have seen a previous encounter video clip of his, and you'll have to take my word for it- he definitely was at a physical disadvantage under a 1200 pound stallion. The story was all over the media, plus the fact that he was a married father who worked at Boeing as an engineer, he died just after buying a small farm with a tiny barn, and a horse he planned to move to it nestled in the woods. The horse was stabled in the barn next door to the one the Enumclaw group rented, thus the tresspassing charge, but the horse involved was his. The media doesn't always get the facts straight.

When McCarthy does a sculpture of a man having sex with a tree, as in his piece "The Garden" he is not advocating sex with trees, nor is he somehow encouraging our children to go out and rape shrubbery. It is SYMBOLIC.
I saw a clip of that, it was pretty strange, I guess I didn't get the symbolism there, I saw humping a tree.

I gotta agree with Landseer on one point though- why is SEX so horrible, but death and dismemberment, and then eating the animal, not?
It's cultural, learned and sex in general is taboo to begin with, death and dismemberment of animals is so accepted because it's always been that way, mom taught the kids, mom was taught BY her mom who was taught by HER mom who probably beheaded her own chickens and turkey back in the days before white pre-packaged death trays in supermarkets.

Same as smoking, the kids grow up around mom-dad smoking, actors on tv and movies and ads all smoking and they take it up too. You look at movies from the 50's and 60's and everyone smoked.

So the 1930's era woman teaches daughter that sex is BAD, to do her duty for her MAN, and that she is not supposed to enjoy it lest she be considered a slut, and that bad men "do" sheep, and homosexuals "do" children, that's why daughter has sexual problems and is frigid, and she turns around and teaches her kids the same things her mom taught her years before.

Assuming that an actual goat/boy sex act occured, which obviously is not what this piece is about- Wouldnt the goat still be a lot better off than if he was goat stew?
Of course, and chances are the goat probably wouldn't even notice junor back there due to "size" differences, which would be much more with a man and a cow.

Beastiality is not an uncomfortable question, it is a sickness.
There's only one "A" in the word bestiality by the way... according to the DSM-lV manual- the psychiatric field's respected guide-book it is not, but is simply a paraphilia or fetish. Declaring something a "sickness" in absense of published proof is an opinion. Someone who commits arson for no reason has a sickness, the teen who sets fire to cats and dogs for fun has a sickness, and those are peer-reviewed and documented as such.
Remember; it wasn't long ago homosexuals were treated as mental patients and "treated" in mental hospitals, some of which included electro-shock and drugs.

Here's part of a study I extracted to keep it shorter, note that 11% are artists;

th Congress of the
Berlin, June 29 - July 2, 2000
"For a Millennium of Sexual Health"

University of Erlangen, Germany
New insights from current Research
Throughout history we can find pictures, paintings and reports about humans having sexual interactions with animals.

One of the earliest rock paintings, that shows a depiction of a man having intercourse with a large quadruped (probably a deer), dates from the bronze age (the 2nd millenium B.C.) (Dekkers, 1994). Ancient rock paintings in Siberia show the intercourse of men with moose (Taylor, 1996). Another rock drawing from 5000 B.C. shows a fox/dog copulating with a woman (Neret, 1994).

Sometimes only the intercourse with certain kinds of animals - e.g. impure animals - was forbidden, as in the society of the Hittites (13th Century B. C.). Thus, it was forbidden to have sex with a dog or a cow, but not with a horse or a mule (Gregersen, 1983; Dekkers, 1994)...

...a 350-item questionnaire... She received data from 82 men and 11 women... Only some of her results can be presented here. Most of the responding men (48%) and women (45 %) were college graduates or above. 16% of the males work in computer-related fields, 11% are artists, about 9% are students and about 7% work in animal-related fields. 27% of the females are students, 9% work in animal-related fields and 18 % in the medical field.

26% of the men and 27% of the women have never been married or lived in a sexual relationship with another person for a month or more. 32 % of the males and one woman are currently married. But almost half of the men and the majority of women are currently single.

One woman and 20 % of the males currently live on a farm and 67% of the males and 73% of the females live with a pet (mostly canines, felines and equines).

For the men the following reasons were "true /mostly true":

- I am sexually attracted to the animal 91%
- I want to express love and affection to the animal 74%
- The animals are accepting and easy to please 67%For the women the following reasons were "true/mostly true":

- I am sexually attracted to the animal 100%
- I want to express love and affection for the animal 67%
- The animal wants it 67%
- The animals are accepting and easy to please 56%The animals the men are most attracted to are the following:

- Canines 87%
- Equines 81%
- Bovines 32%
- Goats 28%
- Sheep 27% The animals the women are most attracted to:

- Canines 100%
- Equines 73%
- Felines 27%
Then the issue of art and the internet come into play along with censorship, and Glenn's concern about art and how freely children can access graphic material that migth "damage" them or "give them ideas" the results may surprise you. In this study neither hard porn nor artwork such as McCarthy's was even mentioned.
How about the family oriented "Discovery Channel" about wildlife on TV as a cue in some cases? If a wildlife show on TV can start a child down the road to bestiality, then so could a wildlife CALLENDAR, maybe even Santa's reindeers could be the spark;

How did they start fantasizing about sex with animals or having sexual relations with animals?

Some have always been interested in their preferred animal and only later developed sexual fantasies about them, some read in books/magazines about zoophilia (e.g. the Sex Atlas), some found it very exciting to watch animal matings on TV (especially on the Discovery Channel in the US) and fantasized about that. Others started to touch the genitals of their pet-dog out of curiosity, in some cases the dog came up and licked the person`s genitals. Others did not remember when their fantasies started, but the behavior often started with nonsexual cuddling with the animal and then became sexual. So we see that there are a lot of ways that can lead up to the first sexual experience with an animal.

...have a very close emotional attachment to their animal partners. They report that they love their animal partner as others love their human partner and are devastated when their animal partner dies. They care about the sexual pleasure of the animal as well as their own.

(2 page long list of reference material omitted here)

Again, I point to the fact that because people murder people, this is not a good reason to say that rape is not so bad. Likewise, because animals are abused in many ways that are more horrific than thru beastiality, that does not make beastiality less of a crime. ( except in Sweden )
Again you miss the point, the point again- people happily accept brutality as long as they get the MEAT, MILK and EGGS as cheaply as they can, even when confronted with photos and videos showing the horrific cruelty to animals in the meat industry they don't care, yet you insert "sex" (even masturbation which most animal breeders as well as VETS do to animals with artificial inseminations) into this and the very same people get all worked up and scream; "ANIMAL ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!! there needs to be a LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!"

The vet or farmer who sticks his entire lubed arm inside a cow to implant sperm is putting a lot more in there a lot rougher than "Joe" and his 6 inch wonder pickle, yet the former is just fine and dandy as long as it produces CHEAP meat, and milk, the latter is somehow "abuse", that is so laughably stupid my eyes are watering!

The statements from that study show just how invalid the abuse opinion is;

I want to express love and affection to the animal 74%
have a very close emotional attachment to their animal partners. They report that they love their animal partner as others love their human partner and are devastated when their animal partner dies.They care about the sexual pleasure of the animal as well as their own.

Last edited by Landseer : 09-26-2007 at 10:40 PM.