Let's talk non-objective

[StevenW]

Well I had to think about this Aaron.. See, I think what I'm getting after is a new way of "doing" for myself..

There's a lot of ways we do things and I've tried to think about all the different ways I've done them..

Do out of passion, out of nuerosis (obsessive etc..) out of boredom, out of lonliness, out of inspiration, joy, to learn and grow or just out of the plain old need to do something etc.. Many more I am sure..

Since I want it as detached as I can manage from anything referential or "experienced", then larger parts of my life will have to step aside and that includes music, work, relationships, family and so on.

Deliberation still comes to mind, each chisel stroke a word in a poem that has yet to be written, no second stroke intended in any one of them. Pure deliberate chiseling for the sake of chiseling and in the name of nothing.

[GlennT]

Here's an idea: wear a blindfold while you carve (with hammer and chisel).
Work entirely by touch. That will increase the odds of a non-referential result.

[StevenW]

I've already done that,.. it reminds me too much of chess and I can play that blindfolded as well.

[grommet]

How about you have random people either send you something & you glue it all together using a schematic for a dishwasher, or you have random people send you coordinates for hammer strikes on the piece of yule. That's disconnected and connected at the same time. Or, just leave your key, leave town, and leave a note in your studio with the expectation that people will execute nothingness for you.

[StevenW]

I don't know what all that means..

Here's more I like: Intentional, deliberate and nothing overstated either in form, color or texture, yet adding up to something more than blindfolded refrigerators.

Shannon Willis, cute young kid in Oregon..

[Portoro]

OK, I'm starting to get worried about you now, Steven (And some of the advice your'e getting here is just silly).

I'd recommend (an old Cantab position coming up) you go to the tradition - research what has gone on before so that you can springboard from something. DON'T work blindfold, either literally or metaphorically. Stone sculpting isn't like writing poetry or producing paintings - both these mediums offer the opportunity of re-writing or overpainting. Stone isn't really a very 'plastic' medium, like clay for instance, and you can't 'work it up' like painting. I think you need to get what you actually wish to achieve IN STONE clear, so go to others who have been trying before.

Your pre-viz of post 1: how would you have made the final work - what media? You seem to have moved to stone at some point - take care that you are tapping the resources of the right medium.

Personally, I'd say don't abandon form, but look at what sculptors have achieved with texture, surface markings and such like - look at the texturing on the sides of Henry Moore reclining females, the richness there and how it might be used. Consider, too, relief work, and the variety of technical things you can do to the surfaces of the forms. Otherwise, have a look at NASA pics of outer space (attached) - build what you want into something that still has form.

[LimeCutter]

Portoro, great pictures - looking at the black and white one I have had a sudden moment of inspiration (I'll have to change my trousers ). Seriously though I know what I need to do for a couple of my projects. I have always been interested in the cosmos but it hasn't really formulated into a specific starting point sculpturally until now.

SteveW, a tough one - it sounds to me like you want to create something without creating something. You intend to do something devoid of any intention. You want detachment whilst being able to say I created that.

It's a dichotomy: i think you need to make a paradigm shift and redefine your terms. I do think that questioning your artistic process and end result in this way is very healthy.

[grommet]

I can only guess that I'm the one being addressed as silly.

But as Dan suggests, you need to look outside yourself a bit, shake things up. To stare at the yule and try to make that ethereal vision wrap around the stone is not an easy way to go about it. What I was suggesting is loosen up, brainstorm, and get the visual firmly in your head, with no concern for what it's made of or how. Once you've got it firmly in mind, make sketches, notes, pictograms in the sandbox, whatever adequately acts as a reminder of that elusive bit. THEN you get to figure out how to make it. Approach it as a third party-- you've got these cryptic notes; how would you-joe off the street - make this object/nonobject?
You are not tied to your history, it is only an easy habit.

[Portoro]

No, Grommet, you were being your usual witty and incisive self. And you were right too. I just think that the artist has to be in control, which is what you're saying too.

Dan - went to an exhibition of the NASA stuff - stunning.

[grommet]

well now I'm just crushed. What was silly then, and why?

[GlennT]

I think Portoro considered my advice to be silly. In fact, I was trying to bring a different (slightly Zen-like) perspective to the quest in as much as it was sounding much too mental, like trying too hard and doing too much research just to whistle a song.

[StevenW]

No worries, discussion is the stuff of what not to do more than what to do anyway. It's all good.. Haven't dug in to the rock yet, still too vague and I won't begin until it's clear. I have been drawing portraits and gestures though and trying to get to a generalised essence of something without representing IT, the figure or non-figure or whatever it is. I'm still leaning toward something whose form is not dominant, but not a ball of yarn either.. True that you can't work it up like paint, but maybe then I'll paint it too... Got plenty of gesso and other interesting materials to play with..

[Portoro]

Sorry, guys 'n' gals - I used 'silly' without really thinking. Things were just starting to look a bit surreal...

[craigktx]

take a cold camping trip to them thar mountains,dont forget the beer.
nothing better than camping during mud season.

Mohab might be nice this time of year and no mud either.

[Mr. Malloy]

I think everybody's mixing up the words objective with subjective. If the piece is something identifiable to my psyche as some thing I identify with (even as an object resemblance to some thing I know) then, that is subjective. I also avoid that genre at all costs. That is why I think that human figurative work is more or less "copying" nature instead of "creating" art. I know there is a HUGE argument against this. and I respect and even love many art pieces that use this method. It is hard to get away with but it can be great. ie. David.
As far as my work; I am looking for a feeling that the viewer is stimulated by as they approach the piece. I am most stimulated by works that do just this (transcend my logic/rational/subjective point of view.)

[Portoro]

This is a fun article that deals with some of the issues of form, as well as the subjective issue. Read - enjoy! Historical of course, so doesn't apply well to a lot of more contemporary stuff. (Woods does some lovely pieces, included in the article).
http://www.ours.ch/cosmicdancer.php

[LimeCutter]

Originally Posted by Mr. Malloy

I think everybody's mixing up the words objective with subjective.

The term non-objective simply refers to art that does not represent a recognisable figure or object. And in this sense is very subjective particularly in the interpretation of it.

In other words it addresses the subject not the object.

Abstract is a better word to use in my opinion. What do others think?

[GlennT]

Originally Posted by LimeCutter

Abstract is a better word to use in my opinion. What do others think?

I think: Too much head-scratchin', not enough art!

[evaldart]

"Abstractions" as a noun referring to some art should suffice. Beyond that, the hair-splitting will only confuse and confound.

[Portoro]

Personally, I have only ever used abstract, if only because everyone understand what you mean.

The subjective issue: I see no other way to producing art than through the subjective, but the work has to emerge with ‘universalised’ forms that other people can key into – otherwise it’s just emotional mush.

[evaldart]

"Emotional Mush" nice.

Lets change the emo to "intellectual...and be sure that your "mushing" is challenging (no paid mushers helping) and we can have "Intellectual Mush". A term with promise.

[ironman]

Hi, I make non-objective welded steel sculpture. You may call it emotional mush, intellectual mush or anything else you want to. I don't care.
It speaks to me and that's all that matters.
If you like it, fine.
If you don't like it, that's fine too.
That's my curmudgeonly attitude.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[suburbanartists]

Steve W -

Very Simple - Material manipulation.

And you work with materials that you love.

No other reason or goal needed.

[StevenW]

No, no mushiness.. It must be pristine and not cluttered, everywhere yet nowhere in particular. With "universal" form and a relationship to it, but not overpoweringly so. A balance of playful color without being toyish and texture without being a chia-pet.

I'm getting there..

[GlennT]

Originally Posted by StevenW

No, no mushiness.. It must be pristine and not cluttered, everywhere yet nowhere in particular. With "universal" form and a relationship to it, but not overpoweringly so. A balance of playful color without being toyish and texture without being a chia-pet.

I'm getting there..

I think you are getting in touch with your inner critique-generator.