A Retail Economy?

[StevenW]

That is funny, we made crabapple mash in 10th grade and put it in our slushies. I guess things really do come full circle.. Production of alcohol, prohibition, Al Capone dies in Alcatraz for tax evasion and now tax evasion gets you elected to some of the highest offices in the country.

Eyes the apple tree out back,.. Nah...

[evaldart]

You wanna see some revolution? Make the beer unaffordable. There are higher-ups who understand that for modern civilization to to remain a comfy place for fat-cats, people MUST be able to afford beer...no matter HOW poor and deprived they are otherwise. This is why a 40oz bottle of Colt 45 was 2.50 in 1988 and its 1.80 now. And if you take inflation into account...that jug of beer is a buck. I dont know if anyones making money selling it, but its being propped-up allright. God help those suburbed suits if the great amber appeaser ever goes away.

[outsider]

Every president brings an 8 year plan with them. Clinton had the internet and the dot com bust. Bush had the credit and mortgage crunch. Now Obama gets his turn. Alot of our economic problems stem from the mere shuffling of the deck every 8 years.

Beer? Since Bud sold out to InBev, Belgiums finest, Stella, also owned by InBev, is being imported heavily. Restuarants have it on tap. Good stuff!

Ya wanna talk economic upheaval, what will happen when I, or someone, introduces instantaneous travel, teleportation. It will replace airplanes, cars, and trucks. It's coming!

http://www.Y-16.com Your future is here!

[StevenW]

Revolution,... hmm.. no, don't want that.. But it does bring us full-circle again to topic.. Retail economy? What else is there? Of course I want to see revolutions in art, the new, even if it is something very small, which it usually is. Manufacture and the creation of things is at the heart of any economy, govts. by definition cannot create wealth or jobs. Sculpture, by divine providence is the apex of the economic great chain of manufacture and the pinnacle of man-made creation. Therefore, sculpture drives the economy and everything else is a coat-tail riding parasite.

[evaldart]

Originally Posted by StevenW

Therefore, sculpture drives the economy and everything else is a coat-tail riding parasite.

IN-DEED!

[GlennT]

We make our own beet kvas, kefir, and kombucha. Way easier, much healthier, and no explosions. Not that easier, healthier, or lack of explosions is much of a draw for evaldart!

[iron ant]

EV,making your beer is like my chickens keeping my egg basket full.Well they arrived by us mail one day old,at $2.45 a chick.It takes twenty weeks or more until they lay,and by the time I figure my time,feed cost,and the eventual lost by dogs,bears,coons,and foxes,I guess you could say that first one will be a golden egg.At the end of the day though it is good fun with the kids,and I know what my birds are eatin....

[evaldart]

This thread pertains to sustenance; the eeking-out of a living, and thusly pertains less to the notion of Art as in our "finest of the fine". So, as sculptors we are better enabled because of the physical skills we have developed as we danced and played and strifed through our various mediums. It will serve us all, in dire economies, to be open to a wider range of opportunities. Some small effort to make yourself available in a tangential manner will easily fatten your wallet. "Jobs" which is how human beings get paid, will simply need to be pulled from other areas. It doesnt matter how close these menial and mundane dalliances are to Art, because if its not Art, they are no better than labor. So reach out and dont be afraid to WORK. Its there as much of it as you want...no complaining about the art market...because most of what gets traded back and forth there is not Art anyway.

[sculptor]

back around 1970 there was a radical rag called "rising up angry" in one issue of which they bemoaned the interlocking directorates of major corporations, claiming that when Director/CEOs of interlocked corporations met to discuss executive compensation, they had a vested interest in raising each others compensation packages far beyond what reflected their actual contributions...
golden parachutes, freebie stock options, and grants of stock,

all the while, our millionaire congress was encouraging relocation of manufacturing facilities to other countries---then the enviro-loonies added unreachable hurdles to the few companies who remained

all the while the W.S.J., I.B.D., etc. were singing the praises of companies like Worldcom and Enron and their visionary leaders, and the S.E.C. got it's members from this select group of pirates...and offered the kind of "regulation" apropos to their members' associates.

(...........................)( a series of deleted expletives)

"Animal Farm" right here in your front yard...
all the little piggies lobbying rich legislators for legislation that robs from the working poor to give to the rich........
and the public is given a "partisan" song and dance to distract the rubes while the pirates pick their pockets and sell their children into bondage.($37,000.00 givemint debt for every man woman and child alive within the confines of the "great society"---should reach $50,000 within 4 years)(medical cost over twice what any other country pays while we rank lower and lower in all measures of quality of care)(etc...)

all the ranting aside, even China is experiencing massive lay-offs

we few producers can't change the world---just our own frontiers

It seems that:
A retail economy is an unsustainable vessel with leaks overpowering the pumps

but
if that is the problem,
why is it shared world wide?

I'm reminded of Iceland's folly in borrowing heavily to bring massive hydro-power to a remote bay where they expected alcoa to build a massive aluminum smelter---recession hits, plant doesn't get built, and the debt has no means of getting serviced........And---that wasn't envisioned for a retail economy---just widgets---

One world-----with interlocking problems---and interlocked benefits

take the bitter with the sweet
and the exploding bathtub beer with the mellowing buzz
beer is mothers milk
when a lad, i built a still and made some white lightning
(i had been collecting field grain and meadow flowers and seeds to feed my chickens and rabbits, and had a little extra)
me mum was vociferously unhappy about the smell
but
after a few days of dedicated effort, me and Terry Dowell and Bobbie and Ron Holstrum took a gallon of the hooch up to the gravel pits and proceeded to consume ----we passed out and slept on rocks that night---nothing retail about it, 'cepting the woefully inadequate aspirin.

[SPRINGFIELD]

Originally Posted by sculptor

It seems that:
A retail economy is an unsustainable vessel with leaks overpowering the pumps

but
if that is the problem,
why is it shared world wide?

.

I like what you said and I agree with it. Still since you asked a question I couldn't help but put in my 2 cents.
I believe that a retail economy is an unstable economic plan. Right now the rest of the world is NOT suffering because of their economys being retail.They are suffering because we are their best customer.
They are not sharing a world wide recession they are sharing OUR recession.

They hitched their hourses to the wrong wagon. Don't think that they haven't learned their mistake.
In the future their economies will become more dependent on each other and less dependent on our economy.
This doesn't look good for america unless we get real busy and start manufacturing HERE again and make other major changes.

[StevenW]

Originally Posted by SPRINGFIELD

I believe that a retail economy is an unstable economic plan. Right now the rest of the world is NOT suffering because of their economys being retail.They are suffering because we are their best customer..

Well the good news is it pays to take care of your customers. A consumer driven economy may not be perfect, but it is better than anything else we have.. It's perfectly natural for economies to go up and down and they will just like climates whether we like it or not. The Japanese hit a very hard recession in the early 90's and tried to buy their way out of it with massive spending much like we are poised to do and the result was that they extended the suffering an additional decade. Notice the world's second largest economy is in no hurry to try that again.

[Landseer]

Originally Posted by Aaron Schroeder

The issue of home ownership is the big one. And Mandating the relaxing of mortgage requirements set off many unitended consequences.

So a backlash occures, now it will be hard to buy a home. Is that what we really want ? People who own their house take care of their property and their neighborhoods. Quality of life improves in communities as a result.

Entire neighborhoods have become vacant, gutted by scrappers, boarded up. Would this have happened if Traders had been denied the profits of trading mortgages ?

The problem I see is a bloated class of folks that want to get rich quick. Buying and selling with no regard for how it will effect people.

Making home ownership available to everyone is better than not.

I never in my life "got" the concept that a person seeks out and buys a house as an INVESTMENT to live in for a couple or three years and resell and move on to another house, what an insane concept, gee, I thought houses were to LIVE IN, not as a hedge fund or commodity to buy and sell like a shipment of potatos.
I laugh when I read things where someone claims their home VALUE is less because Joe next door did or didn't do something on his property, if that's the case and you were looking at your house as a SHELTER- you should be glad the value goes down because your TAXES would as well on it. But see, people don't look at their home as a shelter anymore, it's strictly an INVESTMENT, and when something is strictly an investment it's easy to walk away from it if it loses value, and that is what we are seeing more of.

Fact: people have to live SOMEWHERE, whether it's a $1000/mo rented apartment, a $1000/mo mortgage on a home, or $35 a night hotel room, shelter will cost them "X" dollars per month.

Fact: utilities and taxes cost you whether you buy or rent, even if included in the rent (or mortgage) you are still paying for them.

The problem hasn't been the easy mortgages, someone who can afford to make payments on mortgage or rent the first year can afford it- they are keeping up with payments obviously otherwise they'd never make it to their first anniversary w/o eviction or foreclosure.

The PROBLEM is;

Margional people making ends meet, doing reasonably okay, who then decide to pop out 2 or 3 kids in a row, now they have 3 mouths to feed, diapers, extra food, formula, toys, crib misc needed, medical bills and they fall behind.

People who then want everything NOW for their new house or apartment, so they rush out and buy 2 new cars, new furniture and bric-a-brac, big screen TV, computer, snow blower etc. They get all of that junk on store credit (buy for $0 down 0% interest for 12 mo), consumer loans and credit cards.
Now they can't keep up with all those payments and realize the minimum payments eat up their income w/o paying much if anything down on the principals.

The person is doing fine, then they get hit with huge medical bills for cancer, a car accident, their kid needs long term intensive care in the hospital with a transplant, or leukemia, they have a house fire and not insured enough, they get LAID OFF, the company they worked for goes bankrupt, their parent(s) needs medical care or a nursing home, the list goes on for what can happen to anyone and does.

I can relate to sudden medical bills, even though I have health insurance, the deductable is $2500 a year, resets Jan 1st each year. I wound up getting what turned out to be a herniated disk in my neck out of the blue with severe pain down my arm to where I was unable to sit down for 7 WEEKS because the pain would get worse in minutes. I took a week off work, went to a chiropractor several times $300 or so there, then the doctor, $90, who ordered an MRI $1600, to get the MRI I had to get my eyes xrayed to ensure there were no metal bits in them from welding/grinding, 2 visits to a specialist an hour drive away $202 and $92, home traction device and misc $100, physical therapy at the hospital 3x/week for 3 weeks - average cost around $50 per treatment.

With the Wellmark network discounts which help- even halved the chiropractor's bill, I'm still responsible for around $2600 because the MRI and most of this was prior to Jan 1 and on last year's deductable, and the rest is towards this year's deductable which hasn't come close to being met. So even with insurance, I'm paying 100% of the bills. I can imagine how coming up with that much money would be for someone working at Mc-Donalds for minimum wage, or is on lay-off, or barely scraping by.

Hospital said I can pay $200/mo over time as I want to use my HSA which has $200/mo going into it, that is pre-tax money which is good for me as it goes further than if I wrote a check or used a Visa card which has interest involved, but what if I (or someone else) needed surgery on that and it was $8,000 and I (or they) didn't HAVE insurance? chances are it would go on a credit card for a down payment, heaven help them if they get laid-off!

A co-worker had a hernia out of the blue, that was over $5,000, he has a $5,000 family deductable...
He's also had a detached retina a couple of years ago and needed eye $urgery..

One woman called a lawyer's talk show I listen to and revealed she had TWENTY credit cards, $160,000 in debt. now you tell me how the hell she got TWENTY credit cards!!! did not any of those free for all pre-approved card companies even bother to check her credit report to see she had 10, 11, 12 lines of cards already open and $100k in debt???

Cuba once had a higher standard of living than any country in Europe, circa 1958 before the nutter commies took over and today they're still all driving 1959 buicks...

Blame the 40 year long ridiculous EMBARGO for that, there's nutter commies in China, N Korea and elsewhere and we deal with THEM, in fact we LOVE China- everything we buy is made there, China owns a significant chunk of the US and billions in loans we are paying them interest for.

[sculptor]

I can relate to ... medical bills

My cousin, David spent his last 2 weeks in the hospital.
After failing to save his life, the hospital and doctors contentedly collected all of his available insurance money, then shamelessly billed his estate $350,000.

It seems that having made the decision of getting rich off of other peoples misery:
They behaved like a pack of wolves,
feasting on the weak and injured.
"Sicko" only touched the tip of the iceberg.

The greed based cabal of insurance companies, the AMA, AHA, etc. coupled with favorable legislation is most likely responsible for these rediculously escalating prices decoupled from quality of service......

If carpenters had the same political clout, you'd need a medical license to buy a hammer, and a prescription for nails.
Pretty soon, you'd be paying $5,000/year for carpenter insurance just in case a window were to be blown out during an ice storm.

(IMHO)The above decried behaviors do more to harm the economy than

those free for all pre-approved card companies

with their usery interest charges.

all the ranting aside,
back to the USA being a retail or consumer economy,
Without consumers, producers quit producing, and lay off workers who then are not able to be consumers so more producers quit producing, and lay off workers who then are not able to be consumers so more producers quit...into a really depressing feed back loop
As Americans, our collective rampant consumption has, almost single-handedly, created a positive production/consumption feed-back loop---we buy from the germans who then consume and we buy from the japanese who then consume, and we buy from the chinese who then consume, and we buy from...(fill in the blank) who then consume ... round and round and round in an ever escalating spiral until the whole world is entwined in an orgiastic capitalistic orgasmic excastacy of consumption
...gasp, pant, wheeze....

was it good for you?

A little recession now and then is just a breather in the orgy.

so,
whatcha gonna buy next?

[SPRINGFIELD]

Originally Posted by StevenW

Well the good news is it pays to take care of your customers. A consumer driven economy may not be perfect, but it is better than anything else we have.. It's perfectly natural for economies to go up and down and they will just like climates whether we like it or not. The Japanese hit a very hard recession in the early 90's and tried to buy their way out of it with massive spending much like we are poised to do and the result was that they extended the suffering an additional decade. Notice the world's second largest economy is in no hurry to try that again.

America is either not paying attention or is in denail.

{"it pays to take care of your customers"] I believe that's true and recently the Chinese government considered calling up our loans. Fortunatly their government economists told them that doing this would hurt them as well because of our interdependancy. However I don't believe that they plan to remain in this vulnurable position. Especially in view of how miss managed our economy has been.
[" a consumer driven economy may not be perfect, but it's better than anything else we have"] Gee I feel better already.
{"It's perfectly natural for economies to go up and down"} this economy is going down but it's not going up for a very long time. There are deep fundemental problems. The colapsing of the credit / retail driven economy being the most apparent to at least some of us.
{"Japan hit a very hard recession in the 90's] That's true but I believe they
were not as much of a retail based economy at the time and did not have near the national dept. Nor were they fighting two wars and maintaining other
unprofitable commitments all over the world.
I agree with your view on this current stimilus program. I'm very suspicious of it. Throwing money at a problem without changing things dosen't help. We are in too much dept already.

[SPRINGFIELD]

Originally Posted by sculptor

back to the USA being a retail or consumer economy,
Without consumers, producers quit producing, and lay off workers who then are not able to be consumers so more producers quit producing, and lay off workers who then are not able to be consumers so more producers quit...into a really depressing feed back loop
As Americans, our collective rampant consumption has, almost single-handedly, created a positive production/consumption feed-back loop---we buy from the germans who then consume and we buy from the japanese who then consume, and we buy from the chinese who then consume, and we buy from...(fill in the blank) who then consume ... round and round and round in an ever escalating spiral until the whole world is entwined in an orgiastic capitalistic orgasmic excastacy of consumption
...gasp, pant, wheeze....

was it good for you?

Looks like a nice feel good argument untile you ask yourself what the japanese, chinese, germans etc are consuming from [fill in the blank with anything but american manufactured goods.] While we consume and buy with
borrowed money [and pay interest on-ie national dept] from china and japan
in an orgasmic capitalistic orgasmic excastacy of consumption-oink oink.

[sculptor]

Originally Posted by SPRINGFIELD

Looks like a nice feel good argument untile you ask yourself ...with
borrowed money ...-oink oink.

My friend, it seems that you and I are of the opinion that a retail economy fueled by a fiat currency is unsustainable
like we're accelerating a jet airplane 2 minutes beyond it's fuel capacity and enjoying the ride

While you and I are much more comfortable with what i refer to as a widget economy-----more efficient production leads to more or better product leads to a higher standard of living.

I have begun to see the placebo effect in this supposedly insane approach to a sustainable economy
it seems the damned thing should have crashed and burned already, but
in point of fact, it hasn't
much like our currency
if everyone agrees to make believe that it has value, then it has value
faith (forget god) in the green-back
has allowed this age of technological miracles
bubbles burst
.com housing
and lookit all the unoccupied houses
we got more'n we need (one valid definition of being rich)

lose faith in that otherwise worthless piece of paper which claims "in god we trust" and it has no value
so, valueing anything in the fiat currency has removed the value atleast 2 steps from reality
(pity i blew it all in the .com bubble---there is some nice housing ready to be bought for pennies on the dollar)
wherein does the value lie?
I got the house, furnace, sneekers chainsaw, rototiller and truck, and the other guy has my country's i.o.u.
Now, as that marker gets worth less or worth more, the other guy might get the same things, passing the "legal tender" on to an even greater fool.

all faith
and that etherial faith has created substance
reality from thin air?
Or, do our perceptions of reality as/re our economy need a bit more of an eclectic viewpoint(s)
Aside from that thing about stepping off of tall buildings
believing makes it so
so have faith brother
(and, I'll keep my fingers crossed)

[SPRINGFIELD]

Sculptor
Sounds like we are on the same page. I enjoyed what you wrote.
I would like to add that I believe that this economy has been sustained by
easy credit supported by dept. So I don't find it very unusual that things have been good untile recently.
You have an interesting way of putting things possibly above my litterary pay grade. I guess in the end you were asking if God suffers fools. I only wish I knew.

[Ries]

Originally Posted by SPRINGFIELD

I believe that's true and recently the Chinese government considered calling up our loans.

Huh? you kinda lose credibility with that one- the Chinese have been buying T bills. How, exactly, do you "call" a T bill?
It says right on it the date it will be repaid by, and the interest rate.

The chinese have NO ability to "Call" anything.

What they can do, and which would be Bad News for us, is to STOP buying Treasury Bills and Savings Bonds.
If they did that, WE might have to.

Like we did in World War 2- to finance our debt back then, which, per person, was a LOT more than our debt is now, the US government asked every american to buy War Bonds, and we did. Nowadays, slacker americans dont save anything, or, if they do, they actually scoff at Savings Bonds and T-Bills, and believe that the tooth fairy, in the form of Bernie Madoff, will actually pay them 14% on their money. We all saw how that turned out.

Nope, its our own get rich quick mentality, combined with borrowing our way into the high life, that has screwed us up.
The chinese, on the other hand, have been saving like crazy, and investing their savings in nice, safe, low interest rate US bonds. And the chance of us defaulting on those bonds is very small. So they are gonna have the last laugh on this one.

As for us being all "retail"- last year, the USA exported around $1.3 TRILLION DOLLARS worth of goods and services. Rumors of our demise are just a bit premature.
Boeing alone exported $26 Billion or so in 2007, Caterpillar exported over $6 Billion worth of machinery, HAAS, of Oxnard Ca, sent over 100 CNC machines to china every month, and we exported $215 Billion plus in high tech and software, another couple hundred Billion in Books, Music, Movies and TV shows, and a bunch more manufactured goods and then, lots of apples, lumber, and other commodities.
Oh, and we also exported every BMW and Mercedes SUV that was purchased worldwide, every BMW convertible sports car, every Honda Element that was sold in Japan, along with a fair amount of stuff like Kubota tractors and Komatsu excavators that are made here, and shipped abroad.

Sure, our balance of trade could be better. But frankly, if we drove a bit less, and imported less oil, we could come close to balancing our trade- one of the biggest factors is keeping all those full size 4WD trucks running.

[SPRINGFIELD]

Reis

This is funny because I don't care about my credibility.
I got that stuff about China calling back it's loans from the news so you can take it or leave it.
Even assuming t-bills and bonds are all the financial obligations we have with china {which I don't believe] Are we in fact going to be in a better position to make good on our t-bills and bonds in the future? [I dought it]
I try to look at things simply and honestly. People always tend to find things and arguments to support whatever they want to believe.
This is not rocket science for people who arn't kidding themselves.

[Ries]

I am not kidding myself- I actually looked up what the chinese own.
Here is the link-
http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

(this is a US dept of the treasury website)

Right there in black and white, at the bottom, it says "T Bonds" and "Treasury Bills".

The Chinese, as of Nov 2008, owned $680 Billion worth of the two.

Since you dont believe that, could you tell us what debt you DO believe the Chinese own?

It is true, the Chinese also hold quite a few actual US dollars- not the paper money, but bank accounts in dollars. It is true they could sell their dollars. But to do that, somebody would have to buy them- and I cant see how it impacts our economy one whit WHO owns all those dollars.

The Chinese are not dummies- they are not gonna sell all those T Bills at a LOSS, just to spite you. They are confident the USA will pay em back, just like I am- I have some TBills in my IRA.

The US government IS gonna pay back those bonds and Tbills, if it possibly can- because, regardless of who owns the bills, if it defaults, it loses its ability to borrow. And we need to borrow money, even if our budget is balanced- tax income does not come in at exactly the same times and amounts as spending- every government does short term borrowing to even out its cash flow, no matter how prudent they are at spending.

If you are proposing that the US government is gonna go broke, and we are all gonna be living in anarchy- well, I am sorry, but I dont believe that one, any time soon.

The FACTS, not what "things and arguments", about borrowing and exports, are what I am basing my understanding on. And the facts are easy to find online.

[Mr. Malloy]

Thats a very good argument Ries. The over looked point that everyone is not seeing is that the whole thing is rigged. For example, the Wall street phenomena. is an "old boys" club for the well to do. And the business world of America is owned by the big companies that own all the small ones. We are not much more than a marketing experiment for them. This is why I do not have a TV and get my news from other countries mostly. And still I can ask "Do I really need this? Why am I buying this?" every time I spend a dollar And yes even on Gas. I work from "Found Objects" only in part for political reasons.
YES WE ARE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW DARK AGES.

[evaldart]

Well finally. "The New Dark Ages". I've been waiting for this my whole life. A culture I can embrace, a community that will REALLY let me in (not just pretend).
Okay, we got a lotta burning to do to get things right. Change the signs on all the cathedrals and mosques to "Odin's Place". No more cheating at war...swords and axes only. We will live in the war jets, put them all at the gaza strip, F-14 trailer park. Sculpture.net members must (under penalty of beheading) make an annual pilgrimage to the MoMA to discuss the correct direction of Art (and to swill beer).
I'm gonna go dust off and prepare the weapons and garb.
See you all in the heat of battle. Or Valhalla.

My gear...all made from scrap metal

[GlennT]

Really, evaldart...I thought you were more of the hearts and flowers type of guy!

[sculptor]

which brings us round to
the ragnorok
the great battle awaiting us
when the glaciers advance again

[Ries]

Ah, the post-apocalyptic fantasy.

Who ya gonna be- Mad Max, Will Smith, or Charleton Heston?

Me, I got dibs on Tank Girl.

I dont believe a word of it.
But that doesnt mean I havent been stockpiling weapons.