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  #76  
Old 09-29-2007, 02:52 PM
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Landseer Landseer is offline
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Araich, if you go back to the first post, the thread is actually a good one, save for a couple of posts, the author of one now blocking my posts from her reading as I suggested.
I agree on the "point scoring" the "tipping a hat for taking a stand" sounds like one, I didn't think a sculpture forum was for taking a political stand, but to discuss the arts and related issues connected to them, this isn't a politics forum where we earn points or awards for beating opponents to see who gets the most reads, followups, pats on the back or has the most popular clique behind them supporting every word they post.

People are entitled to their opinions of course, and so far there hasn't been any personal attacks, and Steven and I and a few others are engaging in a civil discourse with a lot of side-issues that are interesting.
The bestiality aspect of the sculpture is a given and a fact and everyone has their opinions on both the sculpture itself as well as what it represents, I don't mind correcting false statements or erroneous claims and I don't take it personally, people just have to do a little research and learn about things they don't understand before making statements off the hip.

McCain's intent was to create controversy with it in a public gallery and make people think, his goal and that of his art accomplished this, in other words; art worked.

While I do not appreciate entire blocks of text of my old posts from months ago being hijacked from totally unrelated threads and inserted here without my okay to fan the flames as in post 42, and that is my only objection to anything in this thread.

The author is going to block reading any of my posts as I suggested she do in the first place.

As the originator of this thread, I'm not seeing any serious bickering or argumentation, statements were made I knew to be wrong, I posted in counter the facts to correct that and that aspect was dealt with that way, but I don't see any name calling or outright disrespect towards other colleagues here going on.

Heated debate yes, controversial topic, yes, but I'm going to draw attention to this section regarding Mapplethorpe's work and the insane selective reaction, and attempted book burning by the police in the UK over a book a student was using in a University class, it has many parallels and shows what can happen when selective Govt or religious controlled censorship using Govt offices and branches becomes involved;
----
In 1998, the University of Central England was involved in a controversy when a book by Mapplethorpe was confiscated. A final year undergraduate student was writing a paper on the work of Robert Mapplethorpe and intended to illustrate the paper with a few photographs. Unwisely she took the photographs to the local chemist to be developed and the chemist informed West Midlands Police because of the unusual nature of the images. The police confiscated the library book from the student and informed the university that the book would have to be destroyed. If the university agreed to the destruction then no further action would be taken.

The book in question was Mapplethorpe, published by Jonathan Cape 1992. The university Vice-Chancellor, Dr Peter Knight, supported by the Senate took the view that the book was a legitimate book for the university library to hold and that the action of the police was a serious infringement of academic freedom. The Vice-Chancellor was interviewed by the police, under caution, with a view to prosecution under the terms of the Obscene Publications Act. This Act defines obscenity as material that is likely to deprave and corrupt. It was used unsuccessfully in the famous 'Lady Chatterley's Lover' trial. Curiously the police were not particularly interested in some of the more notorious images, nor any of the images of children, which could have been covered by other legislation. They focused on one particular image, 'Jim and Tom, Sausalito 1977'.

After the interview with the Vice-Chancellor a file was sent to the Crown Prosecution Service as the Director of Public Prosecutions has to take the decision as to whether or not to proceed with a trial. After a delay of about six months the affair came to an end when Dr Knight was informed by the DPP that no action would be taken as 'there was insufficient evidence to support a successful prosecution on this occasion'. The original book was returned, in a slightly tattered state, and restored to the university library.
------

I highlight with bold a few important points, one is the selective nature of aiming for a particulr image, one in the entire book, while ignoring those involving minors- very curious!

"Obscene" is another point which varies according to time, culture, location and many more aspects. "Obscene" as in this case- obscenity LAWS have typically been religion based, and even languaged to reflect that, i.e "Crimes against nature" note that is not a crime against a person who can testify in court as required- the accused has the right to confront the accuser in court, in this case an accused cannot confront and cross-examine "nature"

And the last one is; the police basically committed blackmail- telling the University that if they allowed the police to destroy the entire book, there would be no further action taken, that is blackmail.

By the way, the B&W photo that caused all of that is on this page with several others of Mapplethorpe's;

http://phomul.canalblog.com/archives...ert/index.html

Last edited by Landseer : 09-29-2007 at 03:40 PM.
  #77  
Old 09-29-2007, 04:09 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
This Act defines obscenity as material that is likely to deprave and corrupt.
This sentence can be taken in many ways, it's so broadly written that anything could come under it's umbrella if a particular person in power were inclined to want to see something done away with.

Read those words carefully;

"likely"

"to corrupt"



"Likely" is a subjective opinion, it both condens and convicts in advance, it is not an absolute, or a fact, thus this can be abused easily by those with any kind of personal agenda or dislikes.

"Corrupt," who defines "corrupt"? again that is broad, subjective and can be abused by any of the ever growing corrupt officials themselves.

The selective police action on that book's ONE photo proves that law was abused, and the police themselves were no doubt sent to that University by a higher-up on a personal crusade or agenda and basically ordering the book burned because he or she objected to the one image in it.
  #78  
Old 09-29-2007, 04:24 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
I agree on the "point scoring" the "tipping a hat for taking a stand" sounds like one
My comment was not intended as "a point scored". Reread the post and you'll see that Tamara and I come from entirely different/opposing sets of beliefs. I'd never seen her take a stand before.(I could be very wrong ). I was very pleasantly surprised. My impression was that all her posts had to do with figurative sculpture(and again from a style as different from mine as could be). My intent was to congratulate and encourage her to speak her mind.

I love it when people speak their minds. Its the only way to have a dialog, to learn, and to get to know them . If someone says something offensive, its my responsibility to ignore it or to respond appropriately. Otherwise I'm as guilty as they are of causing "problems". Deleting posts deprives readers of valuable information about the poster. Those who respond by flying off the handle in a reply also provide valuable info about themselves. Since there is no visual feedback, all words are essential to meaningful dialog. Verbal clues are needed so you can size them up, and figure out how or who is worth responding to. Not everyone is mature, experienced, educated or smart enough to cope with what ever you consider the truth. Silence from me could sometimes be considered an unspoken insult.
  #79  
Old 09-29-2007, 04:47 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~
My comment was not intended as "a point scored". Reread the post and you'll see that Tamara and I come from entirely different/opposing sets of beliefs.
Joe, I was using that as an example to illustrait what Araich mentioned, on the surface it can read that way to those not in the know, but I realised your intent from previous posts with you which was why I didn't say anything directly to you about it in my subsequent post.

Our colleague hails in from a totally different message board with many novices who do mainly craft type things, faux finishes, pen and ink drawings, pastels- mostly non-sculptural work and I've always viewed the place as one largely for amateurs who never held a piece of vellum in their hands before.
Our colleague and I have done battles in the past in the matter of that particular forum's rotten policies of using members' work/images as their own to promote their groups of companies. Their user agreement says you give them unlimited, lifetime free use of your images and text posted there to promote their site(S) and enterprises.

Then when I was working on a model, Our colleague offered some excellent suggestions, and in fact after that I changed my opinion on her to a more positive one, now this is totally reversed and I wish nothing to do with this person again.

Quote:
I love it when people speak their minds. Its the only way to have a dialog, to learn, and to get to know them .

Since there is no visual feedback, all words are essential to meaningful dialog. Verbal clues are needed so you can size them up, and figure out how or who is worth responding to.
This is true, but the method used, at least here was poor. The end results would have been just as effecive with comments, and/or referencing an URL to a post or thread, not hijacking and selectively re-publishing someone's words from a long buried post to brow-beat them with some kind of "gotcha!!!" behind it.

Yes, since this is a text based environment it's difficult to tell what is behind the words, and I'm hardly some great writer, I dropped out in the 10th grade and tested years later for a GED with college level reading/comp, but 9th or 8th grade math and English composition/writing skills. I also tend to go back and re-read my posts and make changes and corrections where I see problems, but I don't catch all of them and my posts can be somewhat disjointed as a result. They are also not easy to read, or difficult to interpret meanings from.
I also think of additional things when I'm doing that, so you'll see almost all of my posts show an "edited last at..." line at the bottom, i ncluding this one now
  #80  
Old 09-29-2007, 05:15 PM
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Angry Off topic in-fighting.

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