Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net  

Go Back  Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net > Community Announcements > Polls
User Name
Password
Home Sculpture Community Photo Gallery ISC Sculpture.org Register FAQ Members List Search New posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 05-20-2010, 11:22 AM
cheesepaws's Avatar
cheesepaws cheesepaws is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,137
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

To clarify - I don't think there is any actual mannequin in the Mander's piece. The head and torso are separate and are likely solid unfired clay.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 05-20-2010, 11:40 AM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
To clarify - I don't think there is any actual mannequin in the Mander's piece. The head and torso are separate and are likely solid unfired clay.
I thought "clay" was referring to the other works. I was seeing what I was habituated to see. This does change the work significantly. I can now enter it and read it as: beings, confined and bound--restrained. Some of the restraints, the cable, look kind of permanent, or require outside tools.

Now how about the second piece you presented?
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 05-20-2010, 12:10 PM
cheesepaws's Avatar
cheesepaws cheesepaws is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,137
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Now how about the second piece you presented?
That is a Doris Selcedo piece in which the voids of a chiffarobe* (with a chair inserted) are filled with cement. She tends to speak of her work as being largely about memory. I can see that (imagine excavating the cement to release other embedded domestic objects) – but I also enjoy her work as great mediator between the body and architectural space. I also like that she achieves monumentality without resorting to overwrought pictorial decoration or by simply increasing scale. Instead, she makes it f-ckin’ heavy and implies her labor. Mostly I like it because I have to fight the urge to try this on my own furniture. Love the surface – not overworked but not perfect. She also has a great sensory thing going with the chill of the concrete against the warmth of the wooden furniture. Simple and elegant.

*I never heard this word until I was married and was told by my wife that my dresser isn't a dresser, but, in fact, is something called a chiffarobe. I'm still not convinced - I don't even own a robe...
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 05-20-2010, 12:17 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

I've been a fan (pre FB) of her work for some time. The concrete was not evident from the photo and I couldn't get a read on it. Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 05-20-2010, 02:46 PM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesepaws View Post
I also enjoy her work as great mediator between the body and architectural space.
I usually reserve that mediator role for my brain. Can you explain what you mean by this?
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 05-20-2010, 03:03 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

First, the figurative thing is not respectful to process in that it hes been designed to fail structurally. While I'm sure it was quite an enlightening experience to make the thing, It would have been MORE enlightening to take the trouble to make it at least challenge the destructive forces of "being".

The dresser, well, there is nothing monumental about it at all. Something that is monumental ALWAYS intentionally dwarfs the things in its immediate environment. None of that here. It does in fact employ the potency of the monolith...but not any better than a simple cast block of concrete. And it aint "f*cking heavy" at all. I could move that around with a hand truck. But SHE doenst even move it, period. All the personal treasures that might be frozen inside that thing are asking for way too much suspension of disbelief; and that should be for the stage or cinema...not the physical relationship between manipulated matter and the human consciousness. So there aint much there, either.

But the NYC galleries are full of this stuff...but I bet Saltzy aint into this at all. Even though it has been massively de-skilled.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 05-20-2010, 03:56 PM
cheesepaws's Avatar
cheesepaws cheesepaws is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,137
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Shame on me taking the bait....

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
First, the figurative thing is not respectful to process in that it has been designed to fail structurally. While I'm sure it was quite an enlightening experience to make the thing, It would have been MORE enlightening to take the trouble to make it at least challenge the destructive forces of "being".
Why does that make it MORE enlightening? A claim like that deserves some ‘splainin’. You failed to note that it IS challenging the destructive forces of "being" by BEING. Oh…and “respectful to process”??? That doesn’t sound like you? (Note to self: possible alien abduction of Evaldart and probable replacement with an android.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
The dresser, well, there is nothing monumental about it at all. Something that is monumental ALWAYS intentionally dwarfs the things in its immediate environment. None of that here.
Besides totally disagreeing with your definition of monumental – certainly it depends on the environment. Don’t forget the primary context for her work isn’t Storm King but rather an imagined domestic setting. It IS monumental compared to the typical use of the furniture, the clothes that go inside, and the furnishing that might surround it in a living space. It is also monumental as a surrogate body…as a figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
And it aint "f*cking heavy" at all. I could move that around with a hand truck. But SHE doenst even move it, period. All the personal treasures that might be frozen inside that thing are asking for way too much suspension of disbelief; and that should be for the stage or cinema...not the physical relationship between manipulated matter and the human consciousness. So there aint much there, either.
Except that she got you to “hand truck” which speaks of the labor I mentioned in an earlier post. Of course these things move (hell, it could be a false weight and filled with foam) – but the sculpture forces viewers to consider weight and the literal work of object making. Even in your dismissal- she has struck a chord: weightless to you, heavy to me……seems like something going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
But the NYC galleries are full of this stuff...but I bet Saltzy aint into this at all. Even though it has been massively de-skilled.
Nothing de-skilled about these at all. Both use well-established processes (mixing of concrete, sculpting of clay, etc.). Saltz was talking about approaching NEW challenges where skill must be invented from scratch (hence his rocket from rocks example). New skills imply new processes and thus new ways of approaching art making.

Suffices to say “is not”, “is so”, “is not”, “is so”….. infinitum

Lets skip to you posting some art that you like.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 05-20-2010, 04:13 PM
jim collins jim collins is offline
ISC Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Posts: 93
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

DAMN, Cheesepaws that is some good thoughts.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 05-20-2010, 04:24 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
Shame on me taking the bait....
"I share your pain".
Quote:
it hes been designed to fail structurally...take the trouble to make it at least challenge the destructive forces of "being".
From my read, that is important. Fragility. Add it to your repertoire. No one can challenge " the destructive forces of "being", beyond a few years, and then only superficially. No one gets out alive. Nothing lasts forever. Its all fragile. Basic.

Quote:
but I bet Saltzy aint into this at all
What is this all about? Evaldart who slams critics and egg heads left and right is now looking for validation in his role as critic. That said, Eval's complaints are unique. To him. And always the same ones...weight. Worrying about weight all the time. Irrelevant, compared to looks.
Quote:
too much suspension of disbelief
Too much? All sculpture requires enormous suspension of disbelief--akin to that of a mad man, day dreamer, or day tripper. That is the beauty of all art. Art is about the trip. Apply your criticisms to your own art and you'd be paralyzed. The art wouldn't hold up. I may have to insist on a certified scale reading for all your poundage claims.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 05-20-2010, 06:20 PM
grommet grommet is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,279
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

I might have to get the popcorn.

What I get from what E is saying is that the figure has been caught in the act of creating a situation to feel sorry for itself, not doing its utmost to propel itself to a higher existence (the artist's furtherence) by using the materials at hand with an eye to personal integrity, allowing a more natural aging of the materials as when they're used sincerely, rather than like a child unskilled would.

That said, some days you feel vulnerable...

And that other one, well that's a mighty thick painting. A bit muddy, but I like it.
__________________
Taking my own advice
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 05-20-2010, 06:36 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

We have been over the issue of how matter interacts with perception, how "weight" and mass influence the "negotiability" of a regarded physicality; how pain, struggle, difficulty and the thresholds of potential must be addressed to achieve the worthy. It all boils down to that.

We are all at liberty to define terminologies as we see fit; in fact its better for language that we do that. But it would require a damned creative wordsmith to give any monumentality to that dresser. Enough creativity that said writer should just go ahead and venture into art.

And if anyone managed to interpret my reference to the Saltzilator as one for validation then I erred again in my horrible use of this primitive toungue of ours.

Folks that copy and paste critics words and views into their "understanding" of art are just "fans". And said critics are mere commentators...rambling dutifully to an audience, for the sake of the audience. And its a damned shame when real artists take them seriously. Some real artists write plenty...read THEM, not the coddled.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 05-20-2010, 07:26 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
how pain, struggle, difficulty and the thresholds of potential must be addressed to achieve the worthy. It all boils down to that.
Boring. I'm not a believer. It doesn't have too be evident every single bloody time, if ever. Things do get easier as your struggles continue. For krice sake, you acquire tools, hand trucks even, skills, efficiency. It isn't slow suicide. You musta been brought up with some real sicko physical work ethic that only legitimizes your being if you hurt. Which counts more, evidence of grunt work, or respect for your ideas? Using your brains is OK you know. You're not gonna get younger or stronger or have more energy. You could advance yourself more by executing better ideas, in my opinion. Work your fingers to the bone and whata ya get? Bony fingers.

The work at hand is not about the physical labor or mass, etc.. Its about ideas. That is what needs to be addressed. You are on the wrong page here.

Quote:
What I get from what E is saying is that the figure has been caught in the act of creating a situation to feel sorry for itself, not doing its utmost to propel itself to a higher existence (the artist's furtherence) by using the materials at hand with an eye to personal integrity, allowing a more natural aging of the materials as when they're used sincerely, rather than like a child unskilled would.
Feeling sorry for itself??? "Higher existence "? This and the rest is poppy cock. You are just following Eval's drum beat too closely, even using his terms. Follow your own advice.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 05-20-2010, 08:19 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

creative outputs that are only about "ideas" would be better addressed INSIDE the noggin. Ideas are, though, part of the concoction the chocolate flavor in the muscle shake (not the eggs) , the utility infielder (not the dh or the left-handed fireballer), ideas are the boy- scout rubbing together sticks (not the match, fuse nor the ka-blam), they are the hose-water (not the quick-crete), ideas are the millions of things NOT DONE over and over and over.

Joe you must differentiate thoughts/thinking from "ideas". Ideas are for raising an eyebrow or two, not for raising a sculpture.
Thoughts/thinking is either the ONLY creative medium there is, or it cannot be a creative medium AT ALL. I havent decided which is the case just yet. But I'm working on it...til it hurts.

Is Art philosophy in solid form, or is philosophy yet-to-be formed Art?

And there is no such thing as "art-philosophy".

It always surprises me to see artists who shy from the necessary demanding throes of the tactile; who justify shortcutting and delegating and making the most personal experience possible the problem of other folks. Shame, shame.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 05-20-2010, 10:16 PM
grommet grommet is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,279
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Boring. I'm not a believer. It doesn't have too be evident every single bloody time, if ever. Things do get easier as your struggles continue. For krice sake, you acquire tools, hand trucks even, skills, efficiency. It isn't slow suicide. You musta been brought up with some real sicko physical work ethic that only legitimizes your being if you hurt. Which counts more, evidence of grunt work, or respect for your ideas? Using your brains is OK you know. You're not gonna get younger or stronger or have more energy. You could advance yourself more by executing better ideas, in my opinion. Work your fingers to the bone and whata ya get? Bony fingers.

The work at hand is not about the physical labor or mass, etc.. Its about ideas. That is what needs to be addressed. You are on the wrong page here.

Feeling sorry for itself??? "Higher existence "? This and the rest is poppy cock. You are just following Eval's drum beat too closely, even using his terms. Follow your own advice.
You're bored way too easily, which is your problem. When you and others continually complain about it you get your disease ick on me. Luckily my immune system is pretty good. Can you keep your peevish boredom to yourself? Sort of like coughing into your elbow in public.

As to me paraphrasing E's statement-- it was a bridge, which starts on Evaldart island and temporarily spanned a plausible route. Who knows if it's what he meant? And as I said, it makes sense in that way, but... do your close reading, I disagreed with his dismissal.
__________________
Taking my own advice
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 05-20-2010, 11:25 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
Joe you must differentiate thoughts/thinking from "ideas". Ideas are for raising an eyebrow or two, not for raising a sculpture.
Thoughts/thinking is either the ONLY creative medium there is, or it cannot be a creative medium AT ALL
Common Eval. Its really rather basic. I'm stunned you don't understand. But then maybe I shouldn't be that surprised, given you evaluate most works by the grunt factor. I find that art, art that has lasting power, is driven not by the brawn that produced it, or the pain, but by the quality and depth of the ideas(which includes feelings) presented or suggested. Doesn't make a bit of difference how or what its made of.
Ideas, the concepts, the organizing principles, the ones finally implemented, are the result of the thought/thinking/feeling/intuition/experience that evaluates potential candidates for action Ideas don't do the examining. There is a symbiotic relationship in that ideas can drive, limit or expand thinking.

Your proclamations, using words like "we", "must", "should", set off alarms in my head--because "we" "must" be individuals first. Proclamations are tools for an army of one. A bigger problem is that your narrow weight /mass based critiques/ideas do not stand up to examination. They are too limited and not valid. The art world is so vast. Even a Swiss army knife, or hand truck, won't do. At times, you've given many here great advice. For some reason though, you often go on auto pilot with this wrong "idea" of the primacy of sweat and pain.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 05-21-2010, 06:13 AM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

could it be Joe that you are not aware that 87.7 % of what your "art world" puts forth as art is not art at all? The all-too-common drivers of function, fun, foreboding and tomfoolery are responsible for the greater part of what you find in the rags, galleries and museums. Indeed though, even some of THIS is worth a look during casual dalliance (remember our dualities).

A cloud of gullibility has always hung over us humans. En masse we'll believe anything; succumb to the wiley fanatic way too easy. It will take a strained detaching to be able to identify the 12.3%. It will take a fully realized individuality added to that other existence that busys itself with fun and worry.

And no, its not about the plain kind of "sweat and pain" you refer-to. Look deeper and find the sweat and pain that lets you know you are in the place of "exceeding". Thresholds are thresholds, artists who work at those edges and precipices are getting whats to be got. And thresholds change with every age, month and moment. So it dont matter how old or young or fit or weak or strong or rich or poor, no excuses for not working AT THE LIMITS on Art (the lazy mode is the common one where regular stuff prevails - perhaps 87.7% of existence).

The atomless ghost only wants a little relevance, thats all, and the poor bastard aint got no arms and legs. Let him borrow them occasionally for some solid work....some ARTwork.

Last edited by evaldart : 05-21-2010 at 08:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 05-21-2010, 07:47 AM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Evaldart, you are using a premise that I might be willing to agree with,

Quote:
87.7 % of what your "art world" puts forth as art is not art at all
to reach an unjustified conclusion.

I would argue that the reason for this is due the the failure of

Quote:
the quality and depth of the ideas(which includes feelings) presented
which is jOe's criteria, and also but not always poor execution of the ideas.

Last edited by GlennT : 05-21-2010 at 07:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 05-21-2010, 07:57 AM
rika rika is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,451
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
En masse we'll believe anything; succumb to the wiley fanatic way too easy.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 05-21-2010, 08:04 AM
grommet grommet is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,279
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

what funny bisected potatoes.
__________________
Taking my own advice
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 05-21-2010, 08:09 AM
chris 71's Avatar
chris 71 chris 71 is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: ont canada
Posts: 1,054
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

im the guy with his head up looking at all the others asses
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 05-21-2010, 08:11 AM
jim collins jim collins is offline
ISC Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Posts: 93
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Yes, to the 87.7%.

Eval quote:
"creative outputs that are only about "ideas" would be better addressed INSIDE the noggin"

Art only takes place in the MIND OF THE ARTIST, period, the end. The object (art work) produced is a manifestation of the thought process, period. Sculpture is an alternative form of communication. The better your skills, the better the communication. So, bad or poor ideas make for poor sculpture and poor skills make for poor communication.

That 12.3% had great ideas and wonderful skills.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 05-21-2010, 08:16 AM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Hah, man that is funny Rika (and quite the travesty as well). Cheese or Joe will likely have an explanation for this charade, I think this photographer was in Artforum. Ants.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 05-21-2010, 09:13 AM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
could it be Joe that you are not aware that 87.7 % of what your "art world" puts forth as art is not art at all?
Well, you must define art for me. There is no other option. Its up to you to save the world.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 05-21-2010, 09:25 AM
grommet grommet is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,279
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Well, you must define art for me. There is no other option. Its up to you to save the world.
there you are, expecting other people to do your work for you again.
__________________
Taking my own advice
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 05-21-2010, 09:38 AM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Well, you must define art for me. There is no other option. Its up to you to save the world.
Well, thats what superheros do...and I'm workin' on it, believe me.

But the saving wont occur by any "definitions"; quite the opposite actually. The saving will occur by the laborious obscuring of a presiding primal rigidness. When folks quit mixing needs and amusements with pertinence - and get on with the travail of mixing-it-up with reality (and reality is not what is being experienced 87.7% of the time) , individuals will quite save themselves - off in their lonely corner with their interesting thoughts and secluded activities. (It only sounds pitiful because of language
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Sculpture Community, Sculpture.net
International Sculpture Center, Sculpture.org
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Russ RuBert