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  #26  
Old 05-04-2009, 07:25 AM
EJB EJB is offline
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Art is what you get when you work twice as hard for half as much, which benefits others tenfold.

(see Evaldart for the iron cladding)
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  #27  
Old 05-04-2009, 10:10 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

ok this is what i think art is.

if you go the same way everyone else is going you will see the same things they all see. if i a different way i will see things other than what the rest are seeing. what i find along the way may be interesting to the rest of the folks as it will be new to most of them. so here is the example of this from today. i was in the local art shop looking at some cheep canvases to make a few 2d. lot of people there all thinking and saying and doing the same thing. piles of canvas various sizes and various manufacture. standard sizes, standard thickness frames, all white and primed. slight variation in texture and quality but not much else. so get the picture. familiar? been there a thousand times. Nothing on them canvas to inpire. no art on them at all. just a receptacle for someones infliction of will. nothing on them to guide. no underlying story to expose, nothing. bared back to boredom but totaly devoid of anything that could cause the person who buys them and puts an image on them any embarasement. no underlying floor or unexpected intrusion to cause their masterpiece to have that thing that causes any discomfort from not being perfectly normal. millions of folks doing that and for sure i like a lot of the stuff they come up with and am always chuffed when i manage to bag something but you can guaranteee someone will have seen something similar resecently and of course if they realy know their grits they will be able to name the artist and where all of his influences came from and therefore where i have got this idea from be it maybe subconciously. so do you get the idea of the same track that most folk are going down. and all argueing the toss about who knows what they are talking about and who is right

ok then here is my point. not sure if it is valid or indeed very strong and i am sure someone will have seen it before and so forth but......

i gave up on the canvas idea and went to my local salvage\timber/hardware store and found some boards. he wanted a buck each and 50c for the half sized ones. it was easy to see they were art materials, they had an asthetic of their own that i hoped would lead me to some art. got exited and bought them all for 50bucks. when i got them home i gave one a sand on my little belt sander[they are the marks in the foreground] and rubbed some stain into it. nothing else. now to me the image that showed itself is very interesting. it is a voyage of discovery looking at it. the more i look the more i see. it fires up my imagination. maybe that is what art is. that simple.

i apologize for the long winded post.

Last edited by rusted_art : 02-12-2010 at 07:37 AM.
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  #28  
Old 05-04-2009, 10:30 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

in summary:
Art lights your fire.
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  #29  
Old 05-04-2009, 10:35 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

I'm with ya, RA. Your connecton to the process, the material and the event is possibly the only validator or identifyer of what "art" is.
We codify it all here with our language but it cant communicate it. When the art succumbs to the universality of communication it has been dumbed. This is why the best scribblers are the most difficult to grasp...they are advantaging and maximizing the potential (limited) of the code, making secret messages that anyone else may not ever solve. And thats okay by me, because if theres any Art in it, any of it (painting music, poetry, sculpture etc) I dont want to think that I should simply "know" what some other body was knowing. I want to revel in the way it eats my moments up. If you're honest, really honest, you will realize that you only approve the Art that you wish you had done or wish you COULD have done yourself. If you say you like other things, things outside the wishes of your wonder...then you are saying it to be INcluded ("Eclectic" is a terribly destructive term). And INclusion will only let you prosper among the ants; not in the real world of real close-by stuff that you can hug, wrestle and laboriously consider.

Last edited by evaldart : 05-04-2009 at 11:29 AM.
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  #30  
Old 05-04-2009, 12:07 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Art is about a kind of truth. Truth is a personal thing to those that understand the nature of truth, and therefore you only ever "get" part of the truth, never all of it(even your own), as it is a kind of infinite malleable personal thing like I said. That the thing morphs all the time, as it should if you are living your life, is the beauty of it. Your life and the things that have meaning should expand. That's the concept of infinite joy. That my mother's life ended this weekend now has morphed a lot of truths for me.
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  #31  
Old 05-04-2009, 12:25 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

jOe, that is probably the most profound of your posts and a rare moment where I find myself agreeing completely with your descripton of art. I feel for your loss (and gain of wisdom)... when my father passed on in '02, I transmuted grief into art during the creation of a mural, while "Fragile" by Sting became a soundtrack for much of the experience.
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  #32  
Old 05-04-2009, 12:41 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Sorry to hear that Joe, my condolences to you and yours..


It could be that some stained wood is art Rusted, but to me it is just stained wood and my take on it is that if there actually were such a thing as art then it might as well be the grand daddy, the greatest myth, the highest form of illusion, faith and trust in the impossible. It would have to come from the big one, the main work, the core idea itself and just because a lot of people believe it is art won't make it so.. There's no such thing as a great Artist, there are only great works. Great work being the key divider between whatever is and is not art.
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  #33  
Old 05-04-2009, 01:34 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
There's no such thing as a great Artist, there are only great works.
Poppycock.

Quote:
Great work being the key divider between whatever is and is not art.
More poppycock. Like I've been yammering about since I joined this forum. There are no hard lines--anywhere--except in your head. That is perfectly ok. BUT, don't expect others to agree or even acknowledge your own private reality/truth creating system. Art is art when it is expressive, i.e., contains a bit of truth. That is why I am for all art--the truths fascinate me. Oh yeah, there is much mediocre and bad art. But it is still art. Not every one can work at a "high level" or is capable of expressing, let alone uncovering, "their best thoughts and feeling". Some can only tap into "their best thoughts and feeling" a few times a year, if at all. Meanwhile the urge to do art, to express, to learn keeps throbbing and for some, it needs to be released daily, no matter what the quality. Thus we have all kinds of art from all kinds of people, who are probably doing the best they can to learn and grow at what every "level" of art they are at. And, some people just have strange ideas, sense of humor, outlooks--hence art definitions are impossible since you have to make room for everyones attempts and the morphic nature of truth....and art.
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  #34  
Old 05-04-2009, 04:06 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

So I stumbled upon a blog post saying neuroscientists have discovered people's brains light up more when they see particular proportions (ones used in the best art of the ages), and light up much less if you tweek the proportions a bit.
It's here, quite interesting...
http://makinads.blogspot.com/2008/01...ubjective.html
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  #35  
Old 05-04-2009, 04:41 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Originally Posted by CritterSteve View Post
So I stumbled upon a blog post saying neuroscientists have discovered people's brains light up more when they see particular proportions (ones used in the best art of the ages), and light up much less if you tweek the proportions a bit.
It's here, quite interesting...
http://makinads.blogspot.com/2008/01...ubjective.html
There are, I think, aesthetic "truths" which resonate universally. I recall not too long back looking at photos of a stunning cloister in France and marveling at the glory of the stone arches and remarking to my wife that even though there are varied tastes, I don't believe a single person could look at what I was seeing and not marvel at the beauty. They may not want it in their backyard, but I sincerely doubt they could fail to register the aesthetic masterpiece.
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  #36  
Old 05-04-2009, 05:09 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
I transmuted grief into art during the creation of a mural, while "Fragile" by Sting became a soundtrack for much of the experience.
Great tune. Still his best song to date – hands down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Art is about a kind of truth.
Personal “truth” seems too much at odds with larger (societal?) notions of symbolism to serve as a fair parameter for determining “Art”. Does Art really ever transcend symbolic actions or symbolic studies of a subject?

Sorry about your loss jOe.
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  #37  
Old 05-04-2009, 06:44 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Does Art really ever transcend symbolic actions or symbolic studies of a subject?
If you let it. Or as evaldart might summarize, in a few words, if forced to, if you wrestle it with all your might it will transcend. Truth never comes easy. Always requires, time or effort or both, and commitment. Sure it'll slap you across the face once in a while, but that's just good fortune, luck.
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  #38  
Old 05-04-2009, 07:46 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Joe, very sorry for your loss. Of course, words wont suffice...but thought will. And you have a handle on that.
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  #39  
Old 05-05-2009, 07:56 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Art is about a kind of truth.
One of the problems with many of the definitions given here is their ambition. My wife is a beadworker - a definition of art that includes all art forms must include her work, and I can assure you that she would find many of these great claims for art quite alien to what she does (Personally I think she plays aesthetic games with bits of stone, a kind of amusement). So, you must include the thought-processes of jewellers, illustrators, advertisers, medieval icon makers, CHILDREN!

I suspect that many of the definitions offered here speak of the writers' own ambitions for art - they don't explain why my little grand-daughter is already busy scribbling. The pursuit of Truth? I suspect not....
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Last edited by Portoro : 05-05-2009 at 10:09 AM.
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  #40  
Old 05-05-2009, 08:33 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

I do suppose that children are correctly motivated in their creative pursuits...doing it for the right reasons...which would be NO reason. Yes there is a pre-functional purity there that is only missing strength and dexterity. Culture teaches this out of us, though...learned talking and co-existing are demolishers. It will take heroic efforts to ever get yourself back.
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  #41  
Old 05-05-2009, 09:48 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
learned talking and co-existing are demolishers
It depends upon your perception, perspective and reaction. It could be fodder for the efforts based on these.

Complacency breeds craft if you're not vigilant. And yeah, luck can produce some winners, but complacency dulls the mind & ends the searching and questioning.

Docile cows...
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  #42  
Old 05-05-2009, 09:55 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
One of the problems with many of the definitions given here is their ambition.
Definitions? I've yet to find one. Ambition???

Quote:
So, you must include the thought-processes of jewellers, illustrators, advertisers, children, medieval icon makers, CHILDREN!
These are the very individuals I'd like to include.. even "CHILDREN". Like I keep SHOUTING in my Whitmanesque voice, "I'm for all art". Of course you'd be mistaken to assume I like all art. But I am for it! You see, I believe that the more you enjoy, why, the more joy in your life ..the less you like the more up tight and snooty you become. Some definitions need to be expansive, flexible, have room for future generations. Look at the mess and pain created by the old fashioned, restrictive definitions of "family".
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  #43  
Old 05-05-2009, 10:12 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Well, unless we are playing word games, Joe, I quoted one of your own.
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  #44  
Old 05-05-2009, 11:11 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Well, unless we are playing word games, Joe, I quoted one of your own.
I said, "Art is about a kind of truth". That is not a definition. That is just a statement. It is not precise. "Art" is not delimited, "kind of" is not very specific, and "truth" was left to flutter in the breeze. I just made a very vague statement. So what would you like to discuss, "art", "kind of" or "truth" ? (note, I said discuss, not define)
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  #45  
Old 05-05-2009, 11:40 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Proposing that art is 'a kind of truth' still makes art an ambitious project, which was my point. My wife's beadmaking has nothing to do with what you here attribute to art - it's not about ANY kind of truth. So my point, again, is that a number of proposals about art in this thread have tended to make of art something that is ambitious by definition. Whatever 'kind of' truth you propose it may be, it elevates your activity well beyond stringing beads.
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  #46  
Old 05-05-2009, 11:42 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Poppycock.

There are no hard lines--anywhere--except in your head. That is perfectly ok. BUT, don't expect others to agree or even acknowledge your own private reality/truth creating system..
Well yes of-course and no I wouldn't and in fact I'd be somewhat bothered if they did.

For me (and I always try and stress this; "for me") all "great" art is really just great work, work that has been practiced, fine tuned, studied, torn up, redone, done again, thrown away, started over, rebuilt, built up, studied, crumpled up, chucked in the trash can, started fresh, worked on, chiseled, broken, set aside, made again, built up, fine tuned, studied, smashed to bits, reworked, built up and on and on and on until one gets it right. It is all about the basics, just like anything else we endevour to achieve. I don't think "genius" or "gifted" or any of these other lofty notions play any part in it. It is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
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  #47  
Old 05-05-2009, 12:01 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

In the extremely unlikely event that we could actually come up with an Iron clad definition of 'Art", it would only last for a few moments until there would be a mad dash of many to "reinvent and redefine" it outside of those accepted parameters.

On this planet.


Elsewhere, people are too busy creating Art to concern themselves with definitions.
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  #48  
Old 05-05-2009, 12:14 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Man, if those words "reinvent" and "redefine" will ever be good for anything they will encourage the abandonment of the accomplished, the forsaking of the accrued, the disemboweling of the accepted, the usurping of the known, the atomizing of the understood, the smithereening of the comforting and the unseating of the believed.
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  #49  
Old 05-05-2009, 02:07 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
Man, if those words "reinvent" and "redefine" will ever be good for anything they will encourage the abandonment of the accomplished, the forsaking of the accrued, the disemboweling of the accepted, the usurping of the known, the atomizing of the understood, the smithereening of the comforting and the unseating of the believed.
Fine. And then what?
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  #50  
Old 05-05-2009, 02:20 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Fine. And then what?
Didn't we agree that it couldn't be defined, so how can you ask that if you understand?
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