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  #1  
Old 05-02-2009, 03:55 PM
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CritterSteve CritterSteve is offline
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Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Anyone got an ironclad definition of 'art' that applies to all the arts, so it can be held against anything and determined if it's 'art' or not?
My bet is 'no'!
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  #2  
Old 05-02-2009, 04:39 PM
Pam Niskanen Pam Niskanen is offline
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

It is undefinable. By its very nature, art defies definition. If you could define it, you would kill it. Why try?
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  #3  
Old 05-02-2009, 05:05 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

My belief is that we don't need a definition of art, but we do need artists willing to approach the creation of art as though it were an opportunity to express the best thoughts and and feelings of which they are capable.
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:15 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

My belief is that "best" is just exactly as difficult to define as "art".

And therefore, just as subjective, arbitrary, and individual in definition.

But hey, I also believe in leprucans, the flying spagetti monster, and Hunter Thompson for President.
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  #5  
Old 05-02-2009, 06:29 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Just because someone thinks they are an artist, is what they produce art?

Is there a difference between a photograph taken by someone who thinks they are an artist, and someone who doesnt know they are an artist.

Last edited by rusted_art : 05-02-2009 at 09:13 PM.
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  #6  
Old 05-02-2009, 06:55 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

"Art" is the stuff agreed upon as "Art" by critics, theoreticians, historians, peer artists and the general public. Also, anything I make or consider "Art" is also "Art".

Anything that falls outside these parameters is merely a figment of your imagination.
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  #7  
Old 05-02-2009, 07:43 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
and Hunter Thompson for President.
I wonder what Hunter would have added to this conversation, verbally that is, beyond the obvious. "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" after all was an art film, in the disguise of a reality film.
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  #8  
Old 05-02-2009, 07:56 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Ooooh, great thread. Okay, here we go.

ART is: Bigger matter (and nothing lesser) generated out of an individual thresholded perception aided by the vigorous physical attack during a rare burst of inspiration that occupies to maximum vitality its immediate environment (forsaking all other environments) and pertaining to NO human need or function (quite forsaking humanity) and resulting in the painful yet glorious attainment of bigger and bigger questions all the while excavating bigger and bigger chasms to be entered and exited only during the PRIME episodes of an ELEVATED perceiver's bigger and bigger existence.

I'm a beer and burger burning funny car...racing to no end. Leaving the artifacts crashed and smoking along the way.

Tomorrow Art will be something else altogether...can't wait to see just what THAT will be.
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  #9  
Old 05-02-2009, 09:43 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Since not everyone can ever agree on a definition, does that mean art doesn't exist?
Or does it exist in the sense 'happiness' exists?
Different for everyone?
'A' is art to me and 'B' sucks, 'B' is art to you and 'A' sucks?

Hard to make progress on agreement if that's the case!
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  #10  
Old 05-03-2009, 07:01 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

It is not the goal or job or destiny or responsibility of anyone to ever "agree" with anyone else. Its is indeed "handy" to be on the same page with others now and then in the interest of negotiating a trade, clarifying a warning or sharing a joke. It should only bother you that you were misunderstood when they give you "mild" instead of the "extra spicy" that you so vehemently ordered (at which point, exasperation now affecting your pronunciations during the execution of their garble "EXTRA SPICY, PUH-LEASE", you will issue a warning and have your will done this time...in the name of an endurable moment of sustenance).
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  #11  
Old 05-03-2009, 07:45 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Find something else to make progress with. Say an idea or inspiration lurking in the back somewhere. But you won't make progress in agreement when it comes to art. Better to "agree to disagree" and move on with what you need to do for yourself. Some will get on board, most wont. And that's the most liberating thing about being an artist. Losing that need to agree. Losing that need for vindication that agreement brings with it.

lisa
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  #12  
Old 05-03-2009, 08:37 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

I'll agree that it's frustrating when people can't agree on the basic functional stuff, but people won't even agree what stuff is basic. Nevermind the bigger thoughty questions, ain't gonna happen. The best you can hope for is moments of grace when what you need at the moment matches what someone else has to give.
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  #13  
Old 05-03-2009, 09:06 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Art is a will-o-the-wisp, 'existing' differently for each person.
Seen through the lens of my unique experiences and preconceptions it might be round and slow, seen through yours it might be spiky and nimble.
It has to live up to the different expectations of each of us.

Groups of people with similar outlooks will agree to some broad terms, but closer inspection will reveal differences of opinion since everyone's lens is different.
Hence art movements, and their ever splintering factions.

So art is like any god or religion.
Great for arguing and getting all excited about. You can love it, you can really hate it.
Great for joining forces with the like minded.
Great for railing against.
It can change lives for better or worse.
But proving art definably exists in reality isn't ever going to happen!
It exists because we want to believe it exists.
All you can really know is 'my version is best, or I wouldn't believe in it'!
So how come we don't kill each other over it?
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  #14  
Old 05-03-2009, 09:24 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Art is a will-o-the-wisp, 'existing' differently for each person.
Seen through the lens of my unique experiences and preconceptions it might be round and slow, seen through yours it might be spiky and nimble.
It has to live up to the different expectations of each of us.
That is true for EVERYTHING and ANYTHING. Thus what Grommie said is so TRUE:
Quote:
I'll agree that it's frustrating when people can't agree on the basic functional stuff, but people won't even agree what stuff is basic. Nevermind the bigger thoughty questions, ain't gonna happen. The best you can hope for is moments of grace when what you need at the moment matches what someone else has to give.
Quote:
But proving art definably exists in reality isn't ever going to happen!
I do ALL the time. I just do not use words. They are what confuse everything. Looking and pointing are all that is required.

Quote:
It exists because we want to believe it exists
True of everything, like weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Quote:
So how come we don't kill each other over it?
Some do and have. Nazis took care of artists not on the approved list.

Quote:
the best you can hope for is moments of grace when what you need at the moment matches what someone else has to give
This needs repeating. Art is about the grace YOU feel and hopefully some others share and experience in their own way too. Interesting word grace, to contemplate...on a Sunday morning. Thank you Grommet. For all the differences we've had lately, they aren't so big here.

Last edited by jOe~ : 05-03-2009 at 09:35 AM.
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  #15  
Old 05-03-2009, 09:41 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ries View Post
My belief is that "best" is just exactly as difficult to define as "art".

And therefore, just as subjective, arbitrary, and individual in definition.
Generally, it would require a college indoctrination for someone to become alienated from knowing what "their best thoughts and feeling" are.

That does not make it easy to define, but definitions are someone else's job.
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  #16  
Old 05-03-2009, 09:59 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Thank god I dropped out of college and went to live in geodesic dome after a couple months, then- no indoctrination for me.

I am proud to say that beyond a studio class in which the instructor was never there, I didnt take ANY college classes. Except night school in machine shop, at LA Trade Tech- but they didnt get into philosophy much there.

And yet, I still am unsure that there is one, universal definition of "best"- especially when I look at what millions of other people consider the best.

I know that sometimes when I think I am doing my best, I come back and look at it a few years later and say- "Oy- what was I thinking?".
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  #17  
Old 05-03-2009, 10:06 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Originally Posted by CritterSteve View Post
Anyone got an ironclad definition of 'art' that applies to all the arts, so it can be held against anything and determined if it's 'art' or not?
My bet is 'no'!
There is no such thing as Art and that is why no one can define it or prove it exists any more than they can with Peter Pan, the Easter Bunny, God, Love, the Tooth Fairy or the Gennie in India who magically knows when you sign the back of your Citi-bank platinum Visa card and makes it work.

There are no great Artists, only great Artifacts left by a race of curious little bipeds that went extinct millions of years ago.
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  #18  
Old 05-03-2009, 10:23 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Art is anything made by hand.
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  #19  
Old 05-03-2009, 10:31 AM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Schroeder View Post
Art is anything made by hand.
I know that a hand-made Chicago style deep-dish pizza is a work of art.
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  #20  
Old 05-03-2009, 01:25 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Quote:
the best you can hope for is moments of grace when what you need at the moment matches what someone else has to give
This needs repeating. Art is about the grace YOU feel and hopefully some others share and experience in their own way too. Interesting word grace, to contemplate...on a Sunday morning. Thank you Grommet. For all the differences we've had lately, they aren't so big here.
Well ya see, that wasn't what I was talking about. I'm glad what I had to give at the moment was what you needed, but that is not my art, that is just about communication, or a meeting of minds, which can occur in art or about art, but is not art. People agreeing on something can definitely seem like art though, if not a documentable miracle.
My art is not about the grace I feel.
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  #21  
Old 05-03-2009, 02:05 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Quote:
Well ya see, that wasn't what I was talking about
Of course not,me neither, cause we never specified...made it "iron clad". Ya see, that dog turd on the stump was shall I say, "graceful". But we didn't agree there I guess. Its about the "YOU feel" or Glenn's "best thoughts and feeling".

Quote:
People agreeing on something can definitely seem like art though, if not a documentable miracle.
"documentable miracle", hmmmm.
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  #22  
Old 05-03-2009, 05:14 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

people agreeing usually assures that it ISNT Art. But, some people finally coming around and partaking in your artifact or, by extension, taking part in your event...that isnt "agreeance", that is influence. And influence is perhaps the only way that Art can matter to "civilization". Art is the only thing in culture that can actually grow the pertinence of an individual consciousness, yet if it ever INTENDS to do so...it will surely not.

In this way, barriers continue to get exceeded, the difficult perceptions become the regular ones (opening the striving minds to continued complexities). Soon enough, ritual and nature will be unworthy recollections and real Art will drive the will of every perceiving unit. Cherishing, killing and exchange will no longer be part of humanity. There will be the absolutely fulfilling and continuous assessment of form accompanied by the maximal efforts of bettering that form. The fuel for this will be processed by organs NOT alimentary or visceral in nature...perhaps a "inhaling" of protein. No more art-crit in the crapper; just constant 5-D optical scrutiny followed by athlectic feats unimaginable to the wiggle-worms that we are today.

Last edited by evaldart : 05-04-2009 at 08:03 AM.
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  #23  
Old 05-03-2009, 05:18 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Or, something else...
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  #24  
Old 05-03-2009, 09:44 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

So I guess that wraps that up then!
Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
Have a great week!
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  #25  
Old 05-03-2009, 10:48 PM
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Re: Iron clad definition of 'Art'

Art is what I say it is.

The word itself is about as useful as the word, poop. But calling oneself an artist does give some a sense of inside knowledge to creativity, and a free ride to create murals of splatter and have some viewers look and go "Oooo, how edgy."

The word is useless because it has no parameters. At least poop can be quantified, and you can use lots of coolio synonyms like feces, shit, fudge, caca, loaf, excrement, etc.
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