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  #26  
Old 12-27-2008, 12:29 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

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Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
Despite their history together sculpture has quite moved-on from architecture...to the point where it is barely even considered along with it. Now the architects would LOVE to consider their work "sculptural", its buys them respect as they borrow our existential priorities to form their ant-boxes. And of course THEY, clean-handed conceivers, embrace all things programmed. One fine day the ambitous "viewer" will notice that civilisation has succumbed to an uninspired design "mean". An easily predicted Jetsons scape fed to its inhabitants by computer savvy over-achievers. In the end it will make Art much easier to recognize - because it will be shocking; done by the rawness of a single hand, a single vision, a single desire to be more than just what is required.
Wow....Evaldart, This is a very sage observation...something I will remember...also consider the role of building codes, zoning, contractors etc. all conspiring to disassociate architecture from sculpture. Gaudi would have a difficult time constructing in the US today...

You can also see this work was not and could not be created in a computer

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  #27  
Old 12-27-2008, 03:16 PM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

True about Gaudi, Giotto, he was an architect with a sculptors visual appetite. He ate BIG.
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  #28  
Old 12-27-2008, 04:48 PM
Andrew Werby Andrew Werby is offline
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

I suppose one could come up with a definition of "sculpture" that excludes any digital manipulation whatever; you could also do that for photography (no digital cameras allowed); writing (chuck that word-processor and pick up a quill pen); graphic art (brushes and goo only); architecture (you just get a T-square and a compass, that's it); film ( good news for the casts of thousands); etc. But what would be the point? To make the world safe for simple chiselers, film freaks, calligraphers, frisketeers, and slide rules? Are you that insecure, thinking you can't compete, so you need to ban alternative means of production in an act of artistic protectionism?

Just because a computer is used in the production of a sculpture does not make the work "computer-generated". That would be true of a piece that was entirely conceived of and executed without human intervention, but that's rarely the case. Sculptors can use computers in various ways; from producing a working sketch without wasting paper, preparing a presentation that shows a proposed piece in situ, to pre-planning a large piece by rearranging component elements until they're right, or scanning in a small maquette for enlargement without interpretation, or realizing a mathematical concept in 3-dimensional form, or (like me) assembling scanned-in natural forms into composite creations.

There are numerous other uses of this exciting new technology that we are just starting to explore, which will enable sculptors to do things that never were possible before. But I suppose it depends on your point of view. If you think of sculpture as a game - like an Olympic event, where the meaning lies in a set of self-imposed rules, and any infraction makes the whole exercise meaningless, then sure - we can restrict the contestants to a single hammer, three chisels, and a block of stone. This would be fair, not only to living sculptors but also to those of the past - we could all compete on a level playing field (as long as strict drug-testing was conducted).

But if you think of sculpture in a wider sense - where artists can come to grips with the full range of what's possible to achieve with a multitude of materials and techniques in three dimensions, and are allowed to take advantage of whatever tools we can get access to, and be judged on the results, not how we got to them - then it's pretty ridiculous to arbitrarily rule out the most potent means we have at hand for bringing what's in our dreams into the realm of physical reality.

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www.computersculpture.com
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  #29  
Old 12-27-2008, 05:29 PM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

Very elegant argument. I usually distill my ideas in hopes they get read. Yours are so lovely that it makes for good reading.
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  #30  
Old 12-27-2008, 05:40 PM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

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Are you that insecure,...
Well Yes, and erm, no and all drug testing and Olympics aside you make an excellent argument Andrew, but O.J. got off on an excellent argument too.. I mean, the day we pit the X-Box 360 vs. Playstation-3 against each other and load them up with EA Sports and call it the World Series is the day I join the Taliban and ask; Where's my cave...
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  #31  
Old 12-27-2008, 05:57 PM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

If you are defining the success of your work by the criticisms, judgings and accolades you might receive at the end then fine - any means necessary. Type away. We will all need to have a relationship with this developing technology on SOME level if we hope to please our bean counters and our biographers. "Culture" will demand it of us. Even me.

But it goes back to knowing which work is your real Art. Just cause you communicated the thing and got the commish and there it sits; in front of the bank, does not mean that you consider THAT your Art. Maybe the real stuff is the thing bred of unusual convictions that are self administered, RULES, yes, rules, standards, lines in the sand, integrities that make sure you see a sculptor in the mirror - and not just another full-time panderer-to-function, another participant. If we, as sculptors, top-shelf creatives, do not vigorously engage our matter with our meat then we might as well slip to other genres and mediums...easier ones, ones that only require some thinking, ones that EVERYONE can get involed in...there are plenty of artforms available that might even get improved by technology. But I doubt very seriously any sculptor would be as fulfilled as he should be - must be - with any product mostly enabled by a thinking machine.
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  #32  
Old 12-27-2008, 06:35 PM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

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a thinking machine.
Well herein lies the problem. You are making the same mistake as Picasso when he said "computers are useless, they only give you answers." They don't think. They don't give you answers to problems that require real thought. They are high powered flunkies that crunch numerical calculations. Of course we can do the same boring stupid work, by hand if necessary. But, it would take soo long and be soo unproductive. We still own the creativity, no matter what the output. I mean, we have final approval. We control the on/off switch. Creative people will always find creative uses for any tool. No tool will ever do it all.
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  #33  
Old 12-27-2008, 06:40 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

This reminds me of the threads regarding the artness of bodycasting. Yeah, more tools, more toys. Rest assured we can find a way to screw up a perfectly good cast/ computer generated whatsis into something truly horrific and provoking. And then where will we be??
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  #34  
Old 12-28-2008, 10:56 AM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

I am with Andrew on this one- a tool, any tool, is just as good as the hand that weilds it.

I judge the finished work- does it please me, startle me, amuse me, challenge me, kick me in the ass, make me jump for joy, or make me want to vomit?

The process that was used to get there only matters to the guy behind the curtain.

If somebody doesnt want to use any computerised tools, or eat brussel sprouts, or wear green on thursdays, thats just fine, and I support each and every one of you in your right to do so.

But to somehow condemn others for the technical route they used to arrive somewhere, because its not YOUR technical route- well thats just small minded.

Nobody but YOU cares how you made your work, no matter how much you try to claim that process is of supreme importance. Craft techniques are important to craftsmen, and, in my craftsmen hat, I pay a great deal of attention to how things are made, and scoff at shortcuts and lazy techniques.
But I dont kid myself that eventual art viewers, now or in the future, could care less about MY hangups.
They dont, and they wont.

The proof is in the pudding.

Some great work ends up being made by breaking rules. If you make rules for yourself, just remember, they are just that- for yourself.

As for examples of work that has been successful, made digitally, I propose the Cloud Gate, in Chicago, by Anish Kapoor.

I find it to be absolultely "ART", as convincingly as any Brancusi, Serra, Smith or Rodin- and yet, it was midwifed by bits and bytes.

What people forget, of course, is that no computer, or CNC machine, builds itself, runs itself, fixes itself, loads itself, of knows anything about the outside world.
The best Computer Jockeys, and certainly the artists (and there are many) who use CNC processes, find that there are just as many decisions to make, just as steep a learning curve, and just as many potential pitfalls, as there is in any hand process.

You dont just push a button.
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2008, 04:40 PM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

Ries just called me "small-minded". I think thats okay with me; as it indeed has been an ongoing effort for many years now to diminish the role of the "mind" during the artmaking process. So if that part of me has shrunk or collapsed a bit upon itself...good. It means the other part has grown or is being better utilized and that the relevence has been kept-close.

That big kapoor thing is not Art to me, sorry...maybe one day it will be (if my mind doesn't just outright disappear altogether). Also, as I continue through my artistic changes it might come to pass that the laptop goes into the toolbag. But for now, for ME, its an Art killer.

I'd like to get that damned mind down to nut-size, so I could be truly unreserved, unrestrained and unleashed. If this thinking seems too aggressively confining, well, I'm not sure how long I can hold out...its a chore, keeping that mind so compressed.
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  #36  
Old 12-28-2008, 11:20 PM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

I didnt call you small minded- YOU DID.

I was totally willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Really, though, this is the classic Technique Nerd argument that occurs in every art, craft, and creative endeavour.

First off, I think that we all have an audience, and because we will be here such a short time ourselves, our audience really has the final say- we can say whatever we want, but the work WILL be judged for what it is, not what we say it is.
And the vast majority of the audience for EVERY art, craft, and other creative endeavour could give two hairy you know what's about how it was made.

Face it- nobody but you and I cares.

Frankly, I would guess that 90% of Sculptors dont even care- its usually only 10% of the actual practitioners in any field that have this argument.

90% of Guitar players just buy an amp- but 10% of em will talk you to death about how ONLY a tube amp is any good. Neil Young spends hundreds of thousands of dollars tracking down specific antique Fender Tube amps. Its really important to him. And it matters not one Iota to the people who listen to his music.

Keith Jarrett Swears that all electric keyboards ruin music, and he will never play one. Except, when he played with Miles Davis, for a couple of years in the late 60's, and made some of the most sublime electric jazz ever recorded, Miles made him play electric keyboards- and you know what- he was great. Audiences love Jarrett on electric keyboards, and those albums still sell like crazy. This is not to say that Jarrett, acoustic, isnt great- it just means that his silly personal predjuices are provably wrong, even for him.

There are knockdown, dragout arguments about how analog synthesizers are 100% better than digital ones. Who cares?

You either like the song, or you dont.

Among other things, I am a blacksmith, and I know perfectly serious blacksmiths who earnestly believe that a drill is the tool of the devil, and every hole MUST be punched hot, or the work has no integrity or soul.
If thats what they wanna believe, its fine with me, but, again, the public, the people who will love their work for hundreds of years, could not care less.

Technique is only important to technicians.
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  #37  
Old 12-29-2008, 12:11 AM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

well its true, tubes sound far better than solid state, and the digital "modeling" of the tube sound...way worse. I own all these kinds of amps and effects. and even as a crappy player, its OBVIOUS that the digital has diminished sonic possibilities (but you can record your entire album in an hour "cd quality" with just a fancy cell phone) If you've ever heard any master tapes played on a Studor machine, 2 ", 16 track tape, you'd know what I mean. Your general public, viewers, audience are not allowed to judge, they cannot matter one iota, they dont know what it feels like to DO what you did. so the "song" is not the Art, so it doesnt matter what it sounds like to them. If you, the musician, made choices based upon the pertinence of the act, the "song" will just be what it had to be...and the audience may or may not grow to like it.

We cannot have this discussion where more commercial ventures are involved, because very little of that product is evidence of high-level work (finest of the fine).

I wish like hell I could feel what Neil Young is feeling when he's up there playing Powderfinger...even if its for the thousandth time. I can only enjoy his work in a secondary fashion...and thats plenty enjoyable. But man, Imagine how it feels to be him as hes doing it. And we are sculptors...we can do even better...because we dont need anyone else and eyes are more important than ears.
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  #38  
Old 12-29-2008, 07:00 AM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

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Despite their history together sculpture has quite moved-on from architecture...to the point where it is barely even considered along with it.
Huh? Not so. While definitely linked, the historical relationship between sculpture and architecture is one of deduction - that which is not architectural structure (or landscape) is more likely to be sculpture. With the ever-evolving advances of engineering, materials, and digitally informed processes the line between architectural structure and sculptural license is more blurred than ever – making that relationship closer and not more distant.
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  #39  
Old 12-29-2008, 08:06 AM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

Cheese, this cant go anywhere because you and Ries will let anything be sculpture.
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  #40  
Old 12-29-2008, 08:36 AM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

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Cheese, this cant go anywhere because you and Ries will let anything be sculpture.
No -only that which is designated by a sculptor. Your boy Serra too plays with the connective relationship between Sculpture and Architecture. It's natural.

I appreciate one of the BIG differences between your model and mine (and perhaps Ries and others here) is the disconnect from the final object and all it represents and the ACT of art as the Art itself (although I don’t know why they would have to be exclusive). Fair enough - but it strikes me as a bit ironic that the more parameters one sets out for defining a personal definition of art – the hierarchies of expression, materials and processes – the MORE conceptual the model. While you claim to crave a creative process that denies (or down plays) the intellectual rationalizations of art, what you describe is filled with self-imposed limits. Such art making denies the ultimate raw impulse to see your ideas manifest using any mean necessary. The limits you impose ARE an intellectual rationalization and, ultimately, more conceptual than being open to any process or creative act that serves your hand and head and need.

Even if it is a given that we will disagree - I think the discussion is a good one.

Last edited by cheesepaws : 12-29-2008 at 09:13 AM.
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  #41  
Old 12-29-2008, 09:51 AM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

Its easy to see that Serra has NOTHING to do with architecture. That is regurgitated hyperbole. Dont believe what you read...use your own eyes.
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  #42  
Old 12-29-2008, 11:11 AM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

I think it is entirely possible to have someone type instructions into a keyboard, manipulate 2-D images on their computer screen, send the information to a machine which mills metal into a form based on the digital information, and produce an object that could be called sculpture.

I also think it is entirely improbable for such a work to have soul.
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  #43  
Old 12-29-2008, 11:18 AM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

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I also think it is entirely improbable for such a work to have soul.

My Nike tennis shoes have souls, they're made the same way.
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  #44  
Old 12-29-2008, 11:38 AM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

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I think it is entirely possible to have someone type instructions into a keyboard, manipulate 2-D images on their computer screen, send the information to a machine which mills metal into a form based on the digital information, and produce an object that could be called sculpture.

I also think it is entirely improbable for such a work to have soul.
I cant believe I'm saying this (but language is so confoundingly limiting) that yes, the "soul" is IT. It is the smudge of YOUR OWN blood that gets left on a work of Art when it has properly come about. It is the courage to take-on a daunting, unrequested and improbable task.
See, these discussions are good for something. Ol' Evaldart is learning what a soul is...I think.:

And like The Grinch, when my heart gets sooo big it wants to bust outta my chest...I'll use that excess energy to make all the art in Whoville for all the poor folk who would otherwise have to make their art with computers.
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  #45  
Old 12-29-2008, 12:13 PM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

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I also think it is entirely improbable for such a work to have soul.


We have some African wood carving hanging on our walls, given to us by a Dr. that revisits his homeland several times a yr., included with these gifts are stories of the artist primitive life style..family life, etc….the art could be produced I suppose with cnc routers ‘r whatever, but then, to me they’d be lifeless……...more low value commodities???

i use cnc machines to create some of my stuff though...go figr
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  #46  
Old 12-29-2008, 12:54 PM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

Don't get me wrong, I think there are plenty of valid and respectable applications for such techniques, especially in the realm of architecture, decorative, and ornamental sculpture. I'm just not willing to fool myself into thinking that it is another tool no different than a hand tool. One is not creating a hand-made object through these means. There is a transfusion of mind, but not of soul, not of heart, head, and hand, when you give a robot instructions on how to sculpt something for you.

I believe that the results are what matters most, yet I'm not sure where we have gone astray in our thinking if we want to pretend that there is no difference between robotic work and a person physically manipulating form in 3-d with their own hands. It would be like pretending there was no difference between having sex with a human or with a robot.

You would be able to tell the difference, right?
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  #47  
Old 12-30-2008, 10:32 PM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

whats the difference between the guy offering to enlarge the piece with a computer, which by the way requires quite a bit of clean-up, and retooling, or a Pan-o-graph see this links here http://www.keropiansculpture.com/enlgmachine.html

http://www.ohranger.com/mount-rushmo...mount-rushmore

some project the 2-d art on foam and carve, which is how theme park and display sculptors create thier work.

since if we all went oldschool like some believe we would be digging clay from the riverbed with our hands so we can sculpt with our homemade tools to show the nieghbors our work in the cave...

as we write our artful words on computers.......
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  #48  
Old 12-31-2008, 12:48 AM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

Your question is missing the mark of the discussion. First, if I understood this correctly, the guy was not offering to enlarge artwork, he was offering to have the sculptor bring models, i.e. life people, in to pose for him and he would scan the people. Thus, voila!, instant art, saving the artist the trouble of creating anything.

Second, a pan-o-graph is enlarging a smaller version of a completed work of art in order to create a larger one. The smaller work has been physically produced by the artists hands. How does this compare to someone who never handles material with their hands, but uses a keyboard and a computer screen to transfer information? It is not a valid comparison.

Your example of projecting a 2-D image onto foam is a better comparison, although I don't know if that technique leads to fine art or just fair-to-middlin' art.
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  #49  
Old 12-31-2008, 07:51 AM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

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Your question is missing the mark of the discussion. First, if I understood this correctly, the guy was not offering to enlarge artwork, he was offering to have the sculptor bring models, i.e. life people, in to pose for him and he would scan the people. Thus, voila!, instant art, saving the artist the trouble of creating anything.

I think it is a given that a straight up scan of a person - without further hand manipulation OR set in its conceptual context - would have a hard time finding its place in the Art world beyond the decorative.

There seems to be an assumption in this thread (and on this forum in general) that some corrupt, moustache-twirling sculptor is out there thinking he can scam the art world and make a ton of cash by just scanning sh*t and having it digitally executed. Sorry, this "art charlatan" character just doesn't exist. The life of the artist is too hard to do with out sincere interest in art and one would have a better chance of making a killing on the tables in Vegas. Have a little faith people!
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  #50  
Old 12-31-2008, 12:12 PM
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Re: Is digital sculpture....sculpture ?

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I think it is a given that a straight up scan of a person - without further hand manipulation OR set in its conceptual context - would have a hard time finding its place in the Art world beyond the decorative.
There are NO givens, especially if it could be decorative. That's a crreepy thought. I'd rather it be art, somehow, even if it was hard, rather than decorative.
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Have a little faith people!
In what? You mean there are givens, to have faith in? Lay it on me man. Blow me away!
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