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  #101  
Old 11-25-2008, 07:25 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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why is it that self defined atheists don't like to be called "godless"?
maybe because it's like driving down the one way street in the wrong direction. ?

(mmm quiche...)


Now we can't just have art, we gotta have cutting edge too? If that's what motivates you, go for it. If that is not what motivates you, it's just stupid. Aren't the artists in the world beyond "keeping up with the Joneses"?
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  #102  
Old 11-25-2008, 07:30 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
.... Like I said in my last post, classical hurdles are set, the bar never moves. ...
That's our point of view, but maybe (just maybe) from the point of view of the classical art, the bar of modern art is pushed further and further down
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  #103  
Old 11-25-2008, 08:03 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Now we can't just have art, we gotta have cutting edge too? ... Aren't the artists in the world beyond "keeping up with the Joneses"?
Does it have to have cutting edges? Yes. Yes. Yes. Do you have to do it? No. No. No. Nobody has to do anything or be "beyond" anything. Who cares that makes a difference?
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  #104  
Old 11-25-2008, 08:42 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Does it have to have cutting edges? Yes. Yes. Yes. Do you have to do it? No. No. No. Nobody has to do anything or be "beyond" anything. Who cares that makes a difference?
Yeah, edges indeed, for slashing yourself: opening wounds, shedding blood, seeing the inside, exposing viscera....exploratory surgury...all so you can reach into YOURSELF. But as Joe mentioned, these edges needn't afflict nor be amongst any other body's edges. The splatter'll be good enough for them...more than they deserve.

Last edited by evaldart : 11-25-2008 at 09:22 AM.
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  #105  
Old 11-25-2008, 09:18 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
Yeah, edges indeed, for slashing yourself: opening wounds, shedding blood, seeing the inside, exposing vescera....exploratory surgury...all so you can reach into YOURSELF. But as Joe mentioned, these edges needn't afflict nor be amongst any other body's edges. The splatter'll be good enough for them...more than they deserve.
Cutting Edge, Rod and Joe? I prefer Provocation. And, that is my bar. And, I have set it myself. And Grommet, atheist are not godless just, God less. And back to the original, "Is it Art if..." The art appears when there is provocation that goes beyond bio, tool, material, or box/turkey regardless of the number of people involved And, Joe, this may well be the Unifying Theory of Art: that we are able to assume a posture of stultification in front of so many different aesthetics argues for such. Besides there are only some 30 odd ideas out there anyway. Just lots of permutations on a theme according to time , place, and material. The box/turkey (which I only like NOW as my argument develops--and this is probably the best refutation) has always been with us.

Robert
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  #106  
Old 11-25-2008, 10:57 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by grommet View Post
(mmm quiche...)

cutting edge too?
think "kitsch", but in keeping with my food analogy......

as/re "cutting edge" .........only as it enhances the aesthetic!...
passing off craftless, childish and repulsive as "cutting edge" is repugnant to me
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  #107  
Old 11-25-2008, 01:18 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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think "kitsch", but in keeping with my food analogy......

as/re "cutting edge" .........only as it enhances the aesthetic!...
passing off craftless, childish and repulsive as "cutting edge" is repugnant to me
Well, Sculptor, it should be presumed that all actions occurring in unison with the creatively driven inspiration will enhance, support, announce, assert, bring-forth or celebrate the aesthetic. Sometimes we miss, but its better to overthrow than to underthrow.
The "cutting edge" is simply a tool; a wedge between already-done things, a machete hacking away the high-grass of human-ness. Because its not our fault that our perception landed in these bodies...the Art lets us know, arrures us in fact, that it can be okay - despite the arms and legs and grey matter - we can persevere...with grit, we CAN yet be MORE than a slitherer. More than just another indo/exocannibal. If we eat only ourselves we wont get poisoned...and we'll be needing a sharp edge to accomplish this.

Last edited by evaldart : 11-25-2008 at 02:00 PM.
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  #108  
Old 11-25-2008, 01:57 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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passing off craftless, childish and repulsive as "cutting edge" is repugnant to me
Examples of the repugnant? Examples of cutting edge?
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  #109  
Old 11-25-2008, 03:31 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by rderr.com View Post
Cutting Edge, Rod and Joe? I prefer Provocation. And, that is my bar. And, I have set it myself. And Grommet, atheist are not godless just, God less. And back to the original, "Is it Art if..." The art appears when there is provocation that goes beyond bio, tool, material, or box/turkey regardless of the number of people involved And, Joe, this may well be the Unifying Theory of Art: that we are able to assume a posture of stultification in front of so many different aesthetics argues for such. Besides there are only some 30 odd ideas out there anyway. Just lots of permutations on a theme according to time , place, and material. The box/turkey (which I only like NOW as my argument develops--and this is probably the best refutation) has always been with us.

Robert

Provocation, hmmm.

A provocateur requires a mark, a victim, a fool. I can't see Art needing any such thing. But as provocation refers to instigation and action I might agree. If the mark is perhaps a hapless and unsuspecting corner of your own awareness, then yes, please provoke. Hmmmm, again.

Last edited by evaldart : 11-25-2008 at 06:10 PM.
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  #110  
Old 11-25-2008, 03:49 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
Provocation, hmmm.

A provocateur requires a mark, a victim, a fool. I can't see Art needing any such thing. But as provocation refers to instigation and action I might agree. If the mark is perhaps a hapless and unsuspecting corner or your own awareness, then yes, please provoke. Hmmmm, again.
"...provocateur requires a mark, a victim, a fool..." How about an audience?

If a tree falls in a forest has it been shoot?

Robert
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  #111  
Old 11-25-2008, 06:17 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Audiences, fans, patrons, benefactors, gazers...sugar-daddies... can all be kept happy with the efforts that fall short of Art (craft, jobs, commissions, stinkers). And,If the ARTifact ends-up under their eyes, or into their collection, fine...it can play there if it must; more protien for you.
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  #112  
Old 11-25-2008, 07:02 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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think "kitsch", but in keeping with my food analogy......
Yup, got that twist. But I make a mean quiche & I haven't had any lately. Well not exactly mean, sorta softly insistant in it's umami.

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Who cares that makes a difference?
Joe,
Not sure what you're saying here, are you missing punctuation or words. Brain is on hand-crank & needs oil.

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And Grommet, atheist are not godless just, God less.
My point was perspective as well. semantics
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Last edited by grommet : 11-25-2008 at 07:13 PM.
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  #113  
Old 11-25-2008, 07:45 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Joe,
Not sure what you're saying here, are you missing punctuation or words. Brain is on hand-crank & needs oil.
You're missing a question mark, so there.
You know, I can't understand myself either. Maybe it is missing more than punctuation or words. Guess you had to have been there.
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  #114  
Old 11-25-2008, 10:07 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

? found it.
It's a fill in the blanks world & there's no rules anyway. You didn't have to be there, but it would help sometimes. WTF
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  #115  
Old 11-26-2008, 09:19 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by grommet View Post
Yup, got that twist. But I make a mean quiche & I haven't had any lately. Well not exactly mean, sorta softly insistant in it's umami.


Joe,
Not sure what you're saying here, are you missing punctuation or words. Brain is on hand-crank & needs oil.


My point was perspective as well. semantics
"...mean quiche..."

Me too. There is this local Belgian dish from Nivelles called "tarte d"ainjain", Wallon for onion pie.

Melt two large sweet Spanish onions in butter. Do not brown
Add 50 cc. of thick sour cream. (They would use actually a Herve, a very powerful cheese from Limbourg-a Belgian province-which gave its name to the Limberger cheese-very pale in comparison. I use sour cream for the uninitiated American palette.)
Beat in 4 egg yolks one by one over very low heat.
Bake in pie shell until set.
Serve warm with Rhodenback, cellar temperature.

From that perspective you could be in any religion's heaven without any reference to God.

And that would be ART, well crafted, one-handmade, and provocative.

RD

Last edited by rderr.com : 11-26-2008 at 09:37 AM.
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  #116  
Old 11-26-2008, 12:54 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Thanks for the recipe, though it seems to be missing herbs. Perhaps the cheese is the star? Add some seared mushrooms & herbs & you've got a deal.


Quote:
From that perspective you could be in any religion's heaven without any reference to God.

And that would be ART, well crafted, one-handmade, and provocative.
If you behave the same with or without religion, references or capitalized names are irrelevent. And wherever you go, there you are-- no baggage necessary.
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  #117  
Old 11-26-2008, 01:22 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by grommet View Post
Thanks for the recipe, though it seems to be missing herbs. Perhaps the cheese is the star? Add some seared mushrooms & herbs & you've got a deal.




If you behave the same with or without religion, references or capitalized names are irrelevent. And wherever you go, there you are-- no baggage necessary.

A mess of bolet freshly picked after a long walk in the autumn forest and some thyme from the garden.

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrroberrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrr(T)
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  #118  
Old 11-30-2008, 09:22 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Interesting question and thread. When I first read the thread's title, I thought it would be about the tendency toward "artists" using everyday objects and displaying them, unmodified, as "art." Examples of this would be Marcel DuChamp's In Advance of a Broken Arm, which consisted of a snow shovel propped against the gallery wall, or one of his other "ready-mades," as he called them.

Addressing the topic, though, there are a vast number of sculptors whose work is technically not entirely their own. Anyone working in a medium for eventual casting in bronze, for example, usually has to turn his work over to a bronze foundry and have the specialized artisans who work there complete his vision for him. But, this isn't confined to sculptors, though. I recall reading, in the early eighties, one art critic's criticism of R. C. Gorman's practice of having his assistants create his paintings and other art objects for him and then he simply signed them.

But, unless you've got the means and the skills to cast your own bronzes, I'm afraid you have to enlist others in your process, at some point, unless you're working in a medium that is direct and requires no casting or other processes that require assistance.

Gary
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  #119  
Old 12-02-2008, 08:41 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Gary,

Bronze and casting are very good examples of why the ART of a piece is completely divorced from the artifacts biography.

Robert
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  #120  
Old 12-03-2008, 08:29 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

I have no problem with work not produced by the artist still being called art. After all, the assistants of the great Renaissance masters, who completed a lot of the work, were still producing art. It’s just not art by the artist himself! It’s ‘in the style of’, or ‘after’. That the artist commissioned it to be done in his style doesn’t make it his. However, he can claim that it is from his studio, and art historians often refer to work ‘from the studio of’, clearly wishing to differentiate between what was made by the artist and what was produced by an assistant – surely a meaningful distinction to make.
Of course, the issues are difficult. Is a spin painting that Damien spun himself different from a spin painting spun by an assistant? Technically, it hardly matters. The ‘hands on’ element is minimal. Conceptual work such as this often has nothing to do with the presence of the artist, merely the idea the artist had (which the assistant is commissioned to make into a work of art by carrying out the labour thingy). I mean – successful artists haven’t the time to make all their work themselves. If you’re still making all your own stuff, well……
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  #121  
Old 12-03-2008, 10:17 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Gary,

Bronze and casting are very good examples of why the ART of a piece is completely divorced from the artifacts biography.

Robert

Well, you could say that, but, then you'd also have to say the same for prints or other reproductions of 2D artwork. By extension, you'd have the same basic relationship between an actor's work and the final edited film he appears in. If his work consists of his performance, is the reproduction of that performance somehow divorced from his original performance? Not necessarily. If the actor's intent is that his performance be a part of the film and the medium of film is the vehicle for his performance, then his performance is an integral part of the film and is not in any way divorced from it. The same is true of a painter who creates a painting explicitly intending that it be reproduced by some printing medium, and, in the case of the sculptor carving or modeling plaster for bronze casting, the "art" of the original carving in plaster is intended to be fully realized in the subsequent bronze, is it not? It is accepted, by most sculptors, that the bronze itself is the final medium and that the plaster is just a preliminary step toward it. But then, that brings us back to the original question of whether the bronze then becomes a collaborative work, since there are other artisans involved in its creation. Even so, the sculptor's intent is that the bronze casting represent his artistic expression. Of course, how well this is carried off by the foundry artisans is yet another matter and I'm sure some very particular sculptors have taken issue with the way in which their carving is translated to bronze.

Gary
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  #122  
Old 12-04-2008, 06:04 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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I mean – successful artists haven’t the time to make all their work themselves. If you’re still making all your own stuff, well……
Hah. We`ve come all the way to the question, "Is it art if you do make it yourself?" Clearly it`s subjective, if someone makes it and calls it art, and someone else looks at it and accepts it as art, so it is. Even if it`s just a dead shark, I suppose.

I like making my own bronzes. Frank Auerbach said something about how `he couldn`t imagine being a sculptor and starting with an armature and deciding gesture and movement at the beginning; that those are decisions that should happen last` (which with his style of painting is perfectly acceptable).

Bronze is the same way if you follow the process all the way through yourself...maybe at the last minute you can decide to say, weld two casts together or turn your standing figure on it`s head or re-texture the surface or a thousand other things. At the very least, you can control the color to your personal satisfaction.

What exactly, "successful artists" means is a sticky wicket that likely deserves it`s own thread.

Bill
www.billwolff.net

Last edited by wolff : 12-04-2008 at 04:07 PM.
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  #123  
Old 12-04-2008, 07:47 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Bill, Gary

I insist, the ART of an object is void of the considerations; material, provenance, or maker. These three pieces of biography are useful for finding more of the "crud*". That's all she wrote, folks.

Art is provocative*, if not, then decorative.
Robert Derr

* And may well be elegant, Gros Mets
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  #124  
Old 12-16-2008, 02:06 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

I'm assuming y'all are calling 'Art' fine art. There are other types of art, as in applied art (which is what those balcony leaves are) and visual arts (now including computer art). Very beautiful, but functional and decorative. They not JUST there for intellectual stimulation like fine art.

But back to the main question 'Is it art if you don't make it yourself?'
Simply, I think Yes. Do you think that Louise Bourgeois at 89 years old could have done the Unilever Series without someone else touching it? It is "three steel towers, entitled I Do, I Undo and I Redo". (I saw it in person, very thought provoking, in my opinion.)

http://www.tate.org.uk/modern/exhibi...is/photos.shtm

"So then, we as the doers must discipline within ourselves a PURIFIED relationship with the things in our advantaged visual field that WISH to be Art. Purified, not narrow." ~ evaldart

Did you know that Christmas was against the law in the United States for 70 years because of Puritans? Not everything is good or better in a Purified state of being.

I know I don't write as elequantly as most of you, but I wanted to put my thoughts down.

~ Niki

PS-Atheists don't like being called godless as there is no god (deity) to be less of.
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