Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net  

Go Back  Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net > Sculpture Roundtable Discussions > Sculpture focus topics
User Name
Password
Home Sculpture Community Photo Gallery ISC Sculpture.org Register FAQ Members List Search New posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #76  
Old 11-22-2008, 03:42 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Correct answer Robert. So art is just not that big a deal. I mean, you will know it is when everyone is doing it, when every home has some, when there are reality shows/contests on tv, or when you can buy it at Walmart. So maybe arguing about what it is and all that diddly stuff is a waste of creative time?
Quote:
It just makes you free if I might reignite that unfinished business.
Yeah, there is that freedom thang. Maybe we should go back to that?
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 11-23-2008, 12:05 AM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Well, this is all warm and fuzzy, but I have to disagree with much of this.. It isn't so easy to be Art if you didn't make it and even when you do it's only Art a small fraction of the time, the rest is craft and craft is not a bad thing as there is some astonishingly good craft in this world, it just isn't Art.
It's all nice and cozy being an egg, but at some point you either have to rot or hatch (I.E. take a stand on what you believe). Even the Egyptians had their version of Walmart and with the advent of the two-piece mold (reusable) every Egyptian from Pharaoh to water bucket slave could afford to have a bronze Osiris in their home. It became so abundant and garish at some point that in the later centuries they had more or less forgotten what Art was.

History repeats itself: If 10% (arbitrary number) of what any given artist makes is Art I'd say they're talented and if it is more then I'd say they're rare. There shouldn't be a problem knowing the difference, but there should always be a problem making the difference.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 11-23-2008, 03:30 AM
Rick Clise Rick Clise is offline
Level 6 user
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 123
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Hey Chalice, I've always been fascinated with this topic- at what point does the 'art' start? Is the 'art' the concept, or the execution? Lot's of different opinions on this topic.

If you listen to podcasts there's an interesting one related to your question. It's an interview of two 'draftsmen' who were discussing their involvement in 'installing' a Sol Lewitt artwork. Quite fascinating if you are into this question:

http://hirshhorn.si.edu/dynamic/podc...odcast_170.mp3

If that link doesn't work check-out the Hirshhorn Museum And Sculpture Garden Podcasts, dated 20 Oct 2008.

Cheers,
__________________
Rick Clise
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 11-23-2008, 10:35 AM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
History repeats itself: If 10% (arbitrary number) of what any given artist makes is Art I'd say they're talented and if it is more then I'd say they're rare. There shouldn't be a problem knowing the difference, but there should always be a problem making the difference
.
The quibble I have with this is that I think artists do succeed at a higher "success" rate of making art. Its just that there is powerful art, great art, and there is so-so, not as good work that is still art but weaker. Yeah, those that produce quantities of strong work are rare.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 11-23-2008, 10:49 AM
sculptor's Avatar
sculptor sculptor is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: IOWA
Posts: 1,493
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
...it's only Art a small fraction of the time, the rest is craft a....(I.E. take a stand on what you believe). ...
If 10% ...any ... artist makes is Art ... shouldn't be a problem knowing the difference, ...
egyptian-----
when I saw NUT crafted as a couch, i thought "art"
when i saw 2 cheetahs crafted as a bed, i thought "craft"
...
when i saw an ancient bandsaw carcass with a beautiful curve shaped like a giant caliper, i thought "art"
when i saw S curved spokes on a brass wheel for driving belts in an old factory (pre-electric motors) i thought "art"
in the last two, the art is in the crafting of unnecessary beauty into everyday objects

I suspect that "art" is usually an interplay between the object and the eye of the beholder..."
finding a "hard" delineation between art and craft is thereby problematic
and taking the word of an "art" critic, or salespeople involved in the marketing of "art" is as foolhardy as believing the concentration camp guards who claimed the chamber to be "the showers"....being critics, they probably don't know, and even if they do, they are most likely stating a bias as fact.
some lunatics(carny barkers) even claim that "the eye needs to be trained to recognize art"
...
like the outlaw bikers----------maybe we need a 10%'ers patch

Last edited by sculptor : 11-23-2008 at 11:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 11-23-2008, 11:13 AM
rderr.com's Avatar
rderr.com rderr.com is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Houston, Texas/Cuidad del Carmen, Campeche, Mexico
Posts: 832
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
egyptian-----
when I saw NUT crafted as a couch, i thought "art"
when i saw 2 cheetahs crafted as a bed, i thought "craft"
...
when i saw an ancient bandsaw carcass with a beautiful curve shaped like a giant caliper, i thought "art"
when i saw S curved spokes on a brass wheel for driving belts in an old factory (pre-electric motors) i thought "art"
in the last two, the art is in the crafting of unnecessary beauty into everyday objects

I suspect that "art" is usually an interplay between the object and the eye of the beholder..."
finding a "hard" delineation between art and craft is thereby problematic
and taking the word of an "art" critic, or salespeople involved in the marketing of "art" is as foolhardy as believing the concentration camp guards who claimed the chamber to be "the showers"....being critics, they probably don't know, and even if they do, they are most likely stating a bias as fact.
some lunatics(carny barkers) even claim that "the eye needs to be trained to recognize art"
...
like the outlaw bikers----------maybe we need a 10%'ers patch
Rod

I see that you caught it. I actually read the typo bios as the plural of bio. Is there a difference between bio and bias?

RD
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 11-23-2008, 11:49 AM
sculptor's Avatar
sculptor sculptor is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: IOWA
Posts: 1,493
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

interesting interplay
the bio determines the bias and the bias determines the bio molds the bias shapes the bio
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 11-23-2008, 05:38 PM
craigktx's Avatar
craigktx craigktx is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Port Aransas tx
Posts: 1,153
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

take the well known name and put it in the walmart art and craft
show.
then ask is it art?

yep the Beatles did some bad songs.

i make it,they buy it and they call it art.
i dont claim any title to what is or isnt.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 11-23-2008, 10:41 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
So. What is this discussion have at its root? It is that art is a big f'in deal. And since it is such a big f'in deal you'd better know how to recognize when it is there and be prepared to fight for your "philosophy". But really, now how big a deal is art? I mean if I spend as much time making art as another person does doing law enforcement, soldiering, medicine, ministering, making fine wine,doing manicures , am I a better person for making art? Is art making really that special in the big picture?
Art is ONLY special in the big picture, as big a deal as possible. The small picture is everything else that is there...all that other stuff.

If you're rambling-off triflings (vocations or avocations) that involve day-to-day meanderings, impassioned or not, and comparing them to Art then you're empowering happenstance...non-events that are called-upon by necessity to play a part in circumstance. Nothing elevated there.

Ordinary and extraordinary things need not be celebrated. All of us artists have it within us to wring significance out of an instance, an episode, a session. That completes it. The artifact might yield usefulness yet in other ways, but the Art has been consumed in its making.

It is vital that the only important thing in Life gets communicated against. Our small language, here, must suffice...but, of course, we can say things better in other ways. So lets be sure we do.

Last edited by evaldart : 11-24-2008 at 05:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 11-24-2008, 10:08 AM
sculptor's Avatar
sculptor sculptor is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: IOWA
Posts: 1,493
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
... the Art has been consumed in its making.

It is vital that the only important thing in Life gets communicated against.
huh WUT??????
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 11-24-2008, 10:48 AM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
It is vital that the only important thing in Life gets communicated against. Our small language, here, must suffice...but, of course, we can say things better in other ways. So lets be sure we do.
Assuming we can say things better in other ways, who benefits??? I think its a small %. Wish I was wrong. So the real question is what is it that the communication is about? How are minds opened to it so they can benefit? That is, of course, assuming that it can't be said in better ways so as to give more an entry to the real fundamental issue--that life thing. Then again contemporary knowledge has admitted that in some areas,"if you aren't confused most of the time, then you really don't get it." Its that negative capability thing that buffalo-flummoxes everyone. But who said it was easy? Took me about 40 years or so.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 11-24-2008, 10:58 AM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
...the art is in the crafting of unnecessary beauty into everyday objects...

I suspect that "art" is usually an interplay between the object and the eye of the beholder..."
finding a "hard" delineation between art and craft is thereby problematic....
I wonder if it is unnecessary or conversely, absolutely necessary? And by that I mean Art is hard-wired into us like weaving a web is hard-wired into a spider. The necessity or drive to transform every day objects into something else is more in line with how I approach carving stone than simply deciding to do something unecessary.

Your suspicion is good and valid, I would add to it though and say that Art is usually a moment of inspiration (Robert might well say provocation) or moments which are captured in the object (or instance as Art need not be object based) for any and all to relate to.

Well, Art doesn't have any Grand Unification Theory as of yet and it could be that it has simply been overlooked. All of the Physicists are still busy trying to figure out if the Universe will rip itself apart, traveling outward ever faster at an exponential pace toward some immense region of dark energy. I do think that it is instinctual and therefore, eventually, definable and there must be some gene passed down, which we can all turn on and use to recognize and some to utilize. The mere fact that you can glance at many objects and delineate art from craft or art from device, machine, artifact, relic, tells me that at some level there is a recognizable or universal constant that we are all (at least subconciously) aware of.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 11-24-2008, 11:35 AM
Ries's Avatar
Ries Ries is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edison Washington
Posts: 1,154
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
The mere fact that you can glance at many objects and delineate art from craft or art from device, machine, artifact, relic, tells me that at some level there is a recognizable or universal constant that we are all (at least subconciously) aware of.
I would disagree that "we are all" in agreement about this.
I think it is entirely subjective what is art, or craft, or device, or artifact, and that it changes from person to person, time to time, and culture to culture.

On a lighter note, those of you who feel its only "Art" if the sole artist makes it, you have had a victory today- Damien Hirst just laid off 20 employees.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesi...ios-job-losses

Who made 19,000 pounds a year, each, making his paintings and sculptures.
Thats $28,000 dollars a year.
__________________
Been There.
Got in Trouble for that.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 11-24-2008, 11:44 AM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Sure Ries, art/subjective, different strokes, different folks etc, I agree completely.. I don't think we as humans are in agreement so much as we are simply aware of it. At some level nearly every human can tell the difference between a cardboard box and a piece of art.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:30 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
Sure Ries, art/subjective, different strokes, different folks etc, I agree completely.. I don't think we as humans are in agreement so much as we are simply aware of it. At some level nearly every human can tell the difference between a cardboard box and a piece of art.

Sounds like Steves on the right track. "sense" or "sensibility? I dont know. But its true that all perceptions, however educated or non-educated (cluttered or not cluttered), have it within them to make a confident and even instantanoues judgement about what is or is not Art. The problem is that the "Art of..." all that non-art crap handicaps that sensibility. When people hear constantly of the "genius" of plumbing or lawyering, the "beauty" of a Micheal Jordan slam dunk, the "perfection" of Bauhaus Architecture or a piece of cabinetry, the "originality" of the interior decor of a restaurant...and they learn to qualify these things as Art, they have mired in muck their true sensibility to define what is Art. And it is the fault of language, and even (at another level) communication. Art is not intended for "sharing". It is for one perceiver to approach or attempt, when sufficiently hungry and emboldened, in the hopes of gleaning gainings from the ensuing temporary union of the presence-less with the presence-ful. It ends, and sometims there is something left over that might get tripped-over or appreciated by another perceiver or two during the ever-dominating down time.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:31 PM
rderr.com's Avatar
rderr.com rderr.com is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Houston, Texas/Cuidad del Carmen, Campeche, Mexico
Posts: 832
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
Sure Ries, art/subjective, different strokes, different folks etc, I agree completely.. I don't think we as humans are in agreement so much as we are simply aware of it. At some level nearly every human can tell the difference between a cardboard box and a piece of art.
Except in the hands of Rauchenburg where it really becomes a turkey.

RD
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 11-24-2008, 01:39 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Except in the hands of Rauschenberg where it really becomes a turkey.
Oh, and I love it when he does that!
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 11-24-2008, 01:54 PM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rderr.com View Post
Except in the hands of Rauchenburg where it really becomes a turkey.

RD
I knew the minute I hit submit reply that someone would find a way to elevate a cardboard box into Art..
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 11-24-2008, 03:01 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
I knew the minute I hit submit reply that someone would find a way to elevate a cardboard box into Art..
He never said that. Got your knickers in a bunch ? He used the box to make a turkey, not art. The turkey was the art, not the box. Get it? And even if someone found a way to "elevate a box into Art", whats wrong with that? That would have to be cool. You just don't respect boxes, or is it free creativity or elevating things? I know you're way smarter than that. You just confused yourself into thinking something was wrong. Boxes are pretty cool really... and ubiquitous...and sometimes expressive. You know know where I'm heading...Andy. He did the box thing years ago. He Owned it. Anyone who tries to use the idea loses major points due to comparisons with Warhol. Now the bar is set higher. That is the cool thing about contemporary art, the bar keeps getting moved up. I don't think that happens in classical art.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 11-24-2008, 03:16 PM
Imms's Avatar
Imms Imms is offline
Level 6 user
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Denmark
Posts: 124
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

The idea is the art. Making it exist in a physical form is talent and skill.

Someone MUST have written something along these lines, so IŽll apologize now to that person for not reading the entire thread.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 11-24-2008, 03:21 PM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Knickers not in a bunch at all, I thought it was funny, albeit somewhat predictable in setting myself up.. The idea that one in one million boxes can be Art/turkey's, Andy or whatever is okay with me, I've seen hamburger box art myself and recognize it as such.. (kind-of)..

My point though is circumnavigated by such examples and tied up in nuance. I think that most humans can instantly tell the difference between what is Art (in an objective sense) and what is not Art.

I think that intuitive judgement is good and healthy as it just sets the bar higher.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 11-24-2008, 03:33 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
I think that most humans can instantly tell the difference between what is Art (in an objective sense) and what is not Art.

I think that intuitive judgement is good and healthy as it just sets the bar higher.
"Most"??? I doubt it. Line up all the third world folks, that would be close to "most" ,and I bet you can fool them pretty easily, especially when you sneak the art in an idea. Or, even the general populous of the U.S. with anything cutting edge. Remember, its not cutting edge if most people get it, so that excludes the word "most" from your argument. See, the bar has been set too high. Like I said in my last post, classical hurdles are set, the bar never moves. There is no progress and "most" will get it...its sooo old. Imagine all the dust that has been wiped off.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 11-24-2008, 06:38 PM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
See, the bar has been set too high. Like I said in my last post, classical hurdles are set, the bar never moves. There is no progress and "most" will get it...its sooo old. Imagine all the dust that has been wiped off.
Or perhaps the bar has been set crooked. It's been nearly 20 years since I was in school, but even then they were saying that the "new" was only getting more difficult to achieve and that at some point there would likely be nothing new or profound left.. Still, if I call my shoe-laces Art and push that on any 3rd worlder I think it would not be them who was "fooled". Now if I did that in San-Francisco I could understand someone "getting" the genius of my creation.

P.S. I'm already an Artnostic, don't push me over the edge to become a full-blown Artheist.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 11-24-2008, 09:00 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
they were saying that the "new" was only getting more difficult to achieve and that at some point there would likely be nothing new or profound left..
So, "they" "think" only technology will advance new ideas--forget art, music, literature, etc.? Aw come on,what kind of argument is this? Sound like "full-blown Artheist" is here. Have faith.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 11-24-2008, 09:57 PM
sculptor's Avatar
sculptor sculptor is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: IOWA
Posts: 1,493
Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

why is it that self defined atheists don't like to be called "godless"?

is there art in the work of Ludwig Mies van der Rohe?
or in the quiche of those who seemed to think they were following in his footsteps?

if there is a universal hunger for an aesthetic that enriches the senses
the feast that satisfies that hunger need not be universal
and
for each of us chefs the banquet is the thing that fosters our sharing
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Sculpture Community, Sculpture.net
International Sculpture Center, Sculpture.org
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Russ RuBert