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  #51  
Old 11-20-2008, 12:05 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

hmmmm
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  #52  
Old 11-20-2008, 12:07 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

I dont thnk artists should give a hoot about how they or their work is perceived, nor even IF they are remembered at all. The people in charge of those things are usually writers, historians, critics, curators, directors, wives - a motlely crew of deciders when it comes to the ol' "what is art?" question.

As heros go, they're usually just defenders (but mighty is a good thing). A properly able and motivated artist is likely only defending himself against that sea of impertinence and triviality that would distract him from what must so deperately get done...and alas, get done feverishly for no particular reason at all.[/quote]
This last bit I totally get and am perplexed and excited and worn out by on a regular basis.
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  #53  
Old 11-20-2008, 12:14 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
Simple answer to what I thought was a simple question: If you did not design the work it is not art. "Art" is in the concept, which must be executed in some form to be an "artwork". If it was not your design, born of your imagination or fevered dreams - then it is not "art". If you designed it and had someone else execute your design - you're an artist, he's an artisan or craftsman. I know lots of people that claim to be "artists", that use their time executing copies of other peoples work - that is not "Art". Every great once in awile they create something from their own mind, and sometimes from their own hands - that is ART.

Oooh OK but surely every artist is influenced by everything around them including every work they have ever seen, this has to slip into their work in many ways. At what point do you decide its not art? Does it have to be an exact replica?
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  #54  
Old 11-20-2008, 12:19 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
creativity has little use for genius. EVERY perciever can play Art (but not many do). And some play better than others. Geniuses are the newsmakers and oddities that occasionally catch the attention of popular culture. And culture needs their geniuses.
Agreed.
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  #55  
Old 11-20-2008, 12:20 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by Chalice View Post
Oooh OK but surely every artist is influenced by everything around them including every work they have ever seen, this has to slip into their work in many ways. At what point do you decide its not art? Does it have to be an exact replica?
Hmmmm... So this is just a non-quantifiable soup...one of those "I know it when I see it" enigmas. I consider my bronzes my ART just as much as my stone work. The stone work is my sweat from raw boulder to finished piece...while the bronze is my original clay or plaster & all the work of making it a bronze I rarely touch.. Still ART....

Thanks for giving me something to mull this weekend while I'm pulling 14 hour days at the studio.
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  #56  
Old 11-20-2008, 12:58 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
Hmmmm... So this is just a non-quantifiable soup...one of those "I know it when I see it" enigmas. I consider my bronzes my ART just as much as my stone work. The stone work is my sweat from raw boulder to finished piece...while the bronze is my original clay or plaster & all the work of making it a bronze I rarely touch.. Still ART....

Thanks for giving me something to mull this weekend while I'm pulling 14 hour days at the studio.
No Blacksun it is not. Just a difficult, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." Art is not material, tool, technique, or biography. It is the provocation resulting from a mixture of those things-more a stew than a soup.

Robert
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  #57  
Old 11-20-2008, 05:04 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Ries, I appreciate your comments on this thread. I have always read Evald's thoughts with much serious attention (when warranted) for awhile now, and I thank him very very much. I have always believed when someone speaks the truth, it "rings loudly", and you know it. I have felt this when grappling to understand his position on art. But there was something lacking in my understanding. Now, reading what you've posted, I hear that bell again. Ya'lls strong feelings on the subject come through loud and clear, and as always, I find myself somewhere in the middle, accepting both ways of looking at it. I know there won't be a single answer to this question, as a fence sitter I can accept that. I'm glad you so clearly stated your case.

lisa
Evaldart, sorry to have talked about you like you weren't standing there!
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  #58  
Old 11-20-2008, 06:52 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Personally, I am of two minds- that is, in my own work, I totally can relate to the heroic solitary effort model of making art- I do a fair amount of that, and have for 30 years or more.

I understand what Evald is talking about, how the process is invigorating, emotional, and leads to unexpected results. I often start down paths making things, and find that the rabbit hole I come up from is a totally different one from the one I went down, and its miles away.

Its just I dont agree that that is the ONLY way to make art, or that ONLY work made in that way is valid "Art".

I also collaborate with other people, some of whom are artists, and some who are not, and I employ assistants- and the results of that work are equally satisfying to me, in totally different ways than the more personal, intuitive explorations.

Different circumstances produce different results, and I enjoy both.

I am also a bit corrupt, in that I have been as involved in "craft" for as long as I have been involved in "art" and I like both equally- to me, its less obvious that one object, produced by a human being, and reflecting his or her unique view of the world, is more valid or important than another object, produced by a human being, and reflecting his or her unique view of the world.

So I can be just as impressed by the talent, experience, improvisation, spirit, emotion, and physical presence of the Gaudi railings as I can by a David Smith sculpture.

But thats just me.
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  #59  
Old 11-20-2008, 08:04 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

just my 2 cents on what Evald is preaching. i belive/precive/whatever he is correct . those balconies and that whole building are beautiful . but as soon as 1 person whos work it is not works on it. it can not reach its full potential because that persons personal drive can never be as strong as the original creators vision is. it just isint his. so no matter how intense that great craft mens effort is on the project it can never equal what might be put forth with that extra effort that ultimate embracing that is the extra touch that art.


just wanted to add i am a master drywall finisher. i have worked in buildings and million dollar homes. some people consider taping an art. but every job i worked on no matter how big and fancy some requiring extra effort. they were all just jobs

Last edited by chris 71 : 11-20-2008 at 08:51 PM. Reason: added something
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  #60  
Old 11-20-2008, 09:49 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Blacksun, theres no doubt in my mind that yout bronzes are Art. Because the Art happened in the clay (or the wax or the plaster, etc), on the way there. Modeling requires another step to get it to the object. But, the experience has been had, the struggles endured, the wrongs righted and the rights wronged. So you got what the Art could give. Mission accomplished.
The bronze has other purposes. It stands proudly for your gains, and is no doubt a satisfying reminder and will likely pay some bills. Of course, if you have the foundry folk doubling or tripling its scale then you have let them make your Art the WRONG size (because you would have made it the right size first, right), ends-up something else altogether, no matter how much it looks like it, it now means something else...maybe its better maybe not...perhaps it doesn't even matter, as you've already gotten the goods. Point is, the ONLY way a sculpture (or painting) can be maximally pertinent is if YOU do things...And this does not mean the sculptor must quarry his stone and drag it down the mountain on his back (though that sounds rewarding), this means that you must be able to look into the mirror and be honest with that face about the integrity of your creative independence.. You cant fool THAT face. Thats all.

Creative collaberations are all well and good. They happen all the time in other tiers of Artmaking such as music, film, and theatre. But somehow it ends up just being another microcosm of the same old "participating" that boggs us all down all the time anyway. The purity of our creativity kinda depends on us-all here being able to ESCAPE that...escape them.
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  #61  
Old 11-21-2008, 02:22 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Is it art if you don't make it yourself ?

The question that troubles me more is " Is it tra if you don't make it yourself ? "
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  #62  
Old 11-21-2008, 07:34 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Creative collaberations are all well and good. They happen all the time in other tiers of Artmaking such as music, film, and theatre. But somehow it ends up just being another microcosm of the same old "participating" that boggs us all down all the time anyway. The purity of our creativity kinda depends on us-all here being able to ESCAPE that...escape them
And yet I think also that at its best, collaboration is learning in real-time. It's just cutting out a lot of extraneous time and ogotistical claim of handprint. There is still the exhileration, leap of faith, expending of energy, creation... only it is intensified because not only are you learning by your own doing, but from the second pair of hands or feet. It is art.
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  #63  
Old 11-21-2008, 09:01 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
So you got what the Art could give. Mission accomplished....Point is, the ONLY way a sculpture (or painting) can be maximally pertinent is if YOU do things...you must be able to look into the mirror and be honest with that face about the integrity of your creative independence.. ..Creative collaberations are all well and good. They happen all the time in other tiers of Artmaking such as music, film, and theatre. But somehow it ends up just being another microcosm of the same old "participating" that boggs us all down all the time anyway. The purity of our creativity kinda depends on us-all here being able to ESCAPE that...escape them.

Just a quickie introjection. There are lessons from the work that can only be had from the making, by our own efforts. Sometimes others can point stuff out we're too self absorbed and blind to see. Sometimes the lessons come from complete strangers. Sometimes the lessons are immediate. Its not unusual also for them to come retrospectively years later. The lessons can be big or really tiny but very useful. And there are pieces that teach others and who in turn give back. They are some sort of example, explainer , reinforcer, validator, or renumerator. . Most of this is about personal growth, artistic growth. But it doesn't always have to be direct, or obvious. Ultimately you have to go from your gut and hope for the best. The future can't be predicted. You never know where the benefits are gonna come from, or when. If you don't know when you're cheating, you'll learn, maybe. No matter. Just pay your dues and don't fret about how it was made, who touched it where, why it was made, what it means...unless you are just an art wanker, in which case every motion and nuance is fondled only for vicarious provocation . We know that wanking only leads to more wanking. Its not productive and doesn't change anything. It has no useful place in evolution or sustenance. Its just a time out from reality when the real thing can't be had.
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  #64  
Old 11-21-2008, 10:14 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

the way the question is phrased:
Quote:
Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
let me break this down in another way:

Is it art if ries or eval or blake or joe or gormmet or rob or fritchie or aaron or chrisor blacksun ...etc
made it?
If someone sees one of mine, and is inspired to recreate it in a different medium or way, who can claim that it is their art? (eg, my isis, with husband and son in her hair, has inspired it's recreation in painting and etc.)

is it art if an unknown artist made it?

it seems that chalice is getting at ownership of creation, and whether the initiator of the creation is an (the?) artist..........true?

my sculpting mentor insisted that art is process not product(which was my position)

as/re blacksun, if i design a macquette and send it off to a foundry to be enlarged and cast, is it still my art?

if i design and build(with a crew) a dwelling, does the person with the money have the right to claim..."I'm building a villa on the lake" if (s)he never lifted a pencil nor board?

my product oriented mind says---if it is art-----It IS art! without regard to the maker---then
wherein does ownership of the artistic portion of the creation lie?

if i create(all by myself) a sculpture for a client's commission,
My skills improved from the doing, and I own copyright, but it was still a collaboration between my aesthetic and skills and his money.
Alternately, if a client sends me a sketch (or several) of the entire sculpture, and asks me to recreate it in 3d
who's art is it?

for the artist, as joe said, the act of creation makes the artist a more skilled artist, and maybe a better artist---------this is not synonymous with the question of "is it art?", nor whose art.

I didn't enter this fray earlier because i'm not sure it can be answered, and I'm not sure it matters.

no answers, just more questions
rod
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  #65  
Old 11-21-2008, 03:22 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
the way the question is phrased:

.....is it art if an unknown artist made it?
Oh, man....do you realize how tricky this question is?
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  #66  
Old 11-21-2008, 05:06 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Oh, man....do you realize how tricky this question is?
Why?

Look, like everybody else here, I have an ego.
And when I make something, I think its really important that "I" made it.

But you have to step back, for a minute, and realize that it really is only important to YOU that you made something, and, I suppose, if you are really lucky, or really cursed, to some poor art history student of the future who is trying to write a scholarly treatise about you.

I compare this to having kids- to me, its obvious that MY influence is the most important thing, that my kids would not be who they are without me making em.
Which is true, up to a point, but, irrelevant to my kids themselves, or to anybody who meets em when they are out in the world, operating on their own.
Yep, I had a hand in who they are- and its just not that important, when anybody else considers my kids, for good or bad.

Similarly, artwork takes on a life of its own, and in the real world, case after case comes up where we dont know who made an object, or if they considered it "art" when they made it.

The cheese stands alone.

There are objects out there in the world now that are considered art, but were not considered art by those who made them.

When the original artist is forgotten, when the effort and struggle that went into making the piece is no longer remembered, the object itself either has life, interest, a personality of its own, or it doesnt.

We dont know if the cave painters in Lascaux thought they were artists, or if they sculpture community 20,000 years ago thought they were- and frankly, it doesnt make one whit of difference.

The work speaks for itself.
It doesnt matter how many people did it, or if one of em designed it, and somebody else made it.
Same thing with reclining Budda's in caves, or the treasure of the Golden Horde, or King Tut's sarcaphogus, or australian aboriginal burial posts, or bronze figurines from Niger, or carved masks from New Guinea, or House Posts from the Queen Charlotte Islands, or the carved stone goddess figures in Malta.

Many of these pieces were probably made by individual artists, while others were clearly group efforts- but who cares, now, thousands of years later?

Right now, we have this curious view that "art" must somehow be useless- or at least not have obvious utility. This has not always been the case, and many, myself included, dont believe it even now.

Certainly there are several industries (art dealing, museum curating, coffee table book publishing, and university professoring, to start) based on knowing who made what.
But this baseball card collecting approach to looking at objects is really pretty limited.
If you find a really inspired sculpture, but you cant find out who made it, or the artist doesnt fit in the commercial art world, or the art history matrix, does that somehow lessen the object, or make the physical reality less real?

I sure dont think so.
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  #67  
Old 11-22-2008, 09:17 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

But this baseball card collecting approach to looking at objects is really pretty limited.

Bravo Ries. If there was a way to make it this statement any bolder I would have. If art needs biography for any reason other than as a historical marker then something needs to be reassessed.

Art is Provocation. If not, it is decoration.
RD
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  #68  
Old 11-22-2008, 09:18 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by Ries View Post
Why?

If you find a really inspired sculpture, but you cant find out who made it, or the artist doesnt fit in the commercial art world, or the art history matrix, does that somehow lessen the object, or make the physical reality less real?

I sure dont think so.
Well....I'll probably get myself in trouble here-mabe it's about time -I agree with you that this is how the things should be- but in the real world who did the work actually matters a lot.The very same piece that would be instantly rejected if made by an unknown artist(e.g., Mr. Nobody presents it to some of those competitions), will be acclaimed as a masterpiece by the art critics, if made by somebody famous....you know the story, it happens every day. They say that The Beatles did some bad songs on purpose, just to have fun when the critic started to praise it -and the songs inevitably reached the top places- not because they were good, but because The Beatles did them.
Of course, after 1000 years it's another story, but if it's our lifetime we talk about-yes!,who made the goddamned thing is about as important as anything else-or maybe much more important then anything else

...wait a moment , I'll put my Kevlar jacket & helmet, OK, shoot now
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  #69  
Old 11-22-2008, 09:29 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by I.Chonov View Post
Well....I'll probably get myself in trouble here-mabe it's about time -I agree with you that this is how the things should be- but in the real world who did the work actually matters a lot.The very same piece that would be instantly rejected if made by an unknown artist(e.g., Mr. Nobody presents it to some of those competitions), will be acclaimed as a masterpiece by the art critics, if made by somebody famous....you know the story, it happens every day. They say that The Beatles did some bad songs on purpose, just to have fun when the critic started to praise it -and the songs inevitably reached the top places- not because they were good, but because The Beatles did them.
Of course, after 1000 years it's another story, but if it's our lifetime we talk about-yes!,who made the goddamned thing is about as important as anything else-or maybe much more important then anything else

...wait a moment , I'll put my Kevlar jacket & helmet, OK, shoot now
I for one will not be shooting just shouting--IF YOU WANT SOMETHING TO CHANGE YOU MUST BE THAT CHANGE. misquote Gandhi/Obama

Robert Derr
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  #70  
Old 11-22-2008, 10:14 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Bob,
Good luck with that...
Anything I can do to help?

................................................
as/re
Quote:
but in the real world who did the work actually matters a lot
Long ago, (1980's?)while I was a member of the Chicago artist coalition, we had a guest who was a then famous new york painter(wish i could remember his name...he used to do window decorations to support his art)
anyway
he complained that success was a double edged sword,
and though he was happy to have money and the freedom to pursue his interests that that afforded,
he lamented that he could swallow paint and puke on a canvas and people would line up to buy it
whereas, before his success, anyone buying one of his paintings, bought because they liked what he did
and now
they were just buying his name...............
...
I suspect that even Dali (as the artist) couldn't afford his own success...
which begs the question
What drives you as an artist?

Last edited by sculptor : 11-22-2008 at 10:26 AM.
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  #71  
Old 11-22-2008, 11:53 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
and though he was happy to have money and the freedom to pursue his interests that that afforded,
he lamented that he could swallow paint and puke on a canvas and people would line up to buy it
whereas, before his success, anyone buying one of his paintings, bought because they liked what he did
and now
they were just buying his name...............

...
I suspect that even Dali (as the artist) couldn't afford his own success...
which begs the question
What drives you as an artist?

That was my point. I can understand the problem you talk about-in an abstract way, for the moment it's a problem I would like to have - then I'll deal with it

...as for what drives me, it's really simple - I need to carve, because it hurts if I stop. And while I do one sculpture, out of the blue come the ideas for more and more...no hope for the damned
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  #72  
Old 11-22-2008, 12:49 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by I.Chonov View Post
That was my point. I can understand the problem you talk about-in an abstract way, for the moment it's a problem I would like to have - then I'll deal with it

...as for what drives me, it's really simple - I need to carve, because it hurts if I stop. And while I do one sculpture, out of the blue come the ideas for more and more...no hope for the damned:rolleyes:
And thus damned are we blessed!

Robert, Bob, RD.etc these are only historical markers, not, me. Caresse the grain of the foot of Singer With Attitude and you touch me-my heart.

rd
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  #73  
Old 11-22-2008, 12:53 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by I.Chonov View Post
That was my point. I can understand the problem you talk about-in an abstract way, for the moment it's a problem I would like to have - then I'll deal with it

...as for what drives me, it's really simple - I need to carve, because it hurts if I stop. And while I do one sculpture, out of the blue come the ideas for more and more...no hope for the damned:rolleyes:
And thus damned are we blessed!

Robert, Bob, RD.etc these are only historical markers, not, me. Caresse the grain of the foot of Singer With Attitude and you touch me-my heart. And will find no signature-really strange for me as my signature is often a decorative part on my work signet ring, button, belt buckle monogram somewhere.

rd
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  #74  
Old 11-22-2008, 01:30 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

So. What is this discussion have at its root? It is that art is a big f'in deal. And since it is such a big f'in deal you'd better know how to recognize when it is there and be prepared to fight for your "philosophy". But really, now how big a deal is art? I mean if I spend as much time making art as another person does doing law enforcement, soldiering, medicine, ministering, making fine wine,doing manicures , am I a better person for making art? Is art making really that special in the big picture?
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  #75  
Old 11-22-2008, 02:02 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
So. What is this discussion have at its root? It is that art is a big f'in deal. And since it is such a big f'in deal you'd better know how to recognize when it is there and be prepared to fight for your "philosophy". But really, now how big a deal is art? I mean if I spend as much time making art as another person does doing law enforcement, soldiering, medicine, ministering, making fine wine,doing manicures , am I a better person for making art? Is art making really that special in the big picture?
"...I mean if I spend as much time making art as another person does doing law enforcement, soldiering, medicine, ministering, making fine wine,doing manicures , am I a better person...",

Of course not. That is biography. It just makes you free if I might reignite that unfinished business. Bye-the-bye all the professions you sited have their artistic components.

Robert
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Russ RuBert