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  #26  
Old 11-17-2008, 11:07 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

I'll buy that.
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  #27  
Old 11-17-2008, 12:19 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
By Jove I think you've got it backwards dear chap. I said I don't care about the object, just the experience of it
iam with joe here.
the outside viewer never see's the object anyway.
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  #28  
Old 11-17-2008, 12:51 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Me, I will take the unpopular corner, the one over there by the bar.

I think it makes absolutely NO difference to the viewer, 100 years from now, who, or what, or how it was made.

It makes a ton of difference to the maker- because each art maker has his or her own highly evolved personal philosophy.

But there are plenty of wonderful objects out there, that, a few hundred years down the road, we either like, or dont like, without knowing how many people touched em.

It all gets lost in the wash, so to speak.

The object, in the end, must speak for itself.

Now I understand, Evaldart believes, because he must, that the object cannot achieve a certain state of being unless only one demented dervish of a genius, listening to loud heavy metal while sipping cheap beer, lays hands on every inch of it.

But once the Evald returns to the dust, even the sculptures of the great Evald will be judged on their own merits. Maybe 100 years from now, scholars will argue whether he had an assistant in 2008, as he might have in 1998. But the average museum goer, assuming the work fares well at the hands of history, just plain wont care.

Throughout the ages, many, many people we now consider to be artists used manpower, the same way they used paint, stone, or wood. People are a medium, that a good artist can manipulate to get his desired result, and a hack will be overcome by, the same way oil paint gets a beginner in trouble, or the way a noobie sculptor is completely clueless when it comes to raising complex forms in sheet material.

The result matters. The road is only important to the travellers on it, the artists. Me, I care a great deal how things were made, while at the same time realizing that even most art "appreciators" do not share my interest.

I consider Faberge Eggs, Egyptian statues 100 feet tall, Richard Serra spirals, and Anish Kapoor's Cloud Gate all to be "art", and nary a one of em could have been made by one heroic romantic sculptor on his own.

In each case, the artist had to rise above the narrow viewpoint that only HIS hands were the tools to use, and to use any and every tool available, INCLUDING OTHER PEOPLE.

Michealangelo undoubtedly used help, carving. Most all of the old master painters had apprentices preparing canvases, and, in many cases, filling in color, doing the first layers of backgrounds, and so on.

If it is important to YOU that only your hands touch your work, then, by all means, do it that way. More power to you. But to say that the use of an assistant automatically renders any artwork to be heresy- well, it just has not been proven by history, general consensus, or, frankly, anybody but rabid artists.
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  #29  
Old 11-17-2008, 04:18 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

. but i wonder what other really great stuff would be out there if artist like Michealangelo were really free to spend all the time and engery it took to do what they did. but with no guide lines just whatever he wanted. or with the Egyptian statues what if the carvers were free to make whatever they wanted how much further would art be then were it is right know. kinda like joes smith qoute hhummm.

Last edited by chris 71 : 11-17-2008 at 04:43 PM. Reason: not really off topic
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  #30  
Old 11-17-2008, 06:00 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Well, I think you mistake heroism for something else. Something much less tangible and much more sincere.
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  #31  
Old 11-17-2008, 06:19 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

could that be art
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  #32  
Old 11-17-2008, 06:46 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

When has heroism not been sincere?
Its one of the most basic aspects of heroism.

In my mind, a heroic artist is one who believes in the tradition of HEROES- Heros like Beowulf, who slew Grendrel BY HIMSELF, with nothing but his wits, muscles, and charmed luck.

Throughout history, stories are told about Heroes, and they always triumph with solo efforts.

I think this is EXACTLY the mythos of the lonely genius sculptor, and it is romantically attractive to all of us for exactly the same reasons.
Who wouldnt want to be the Hero, to do it your way.

The opposite, of course, is being part of a group. Now personally, I also like that- I enjoy contributing, and working with others, and creating something larger than any one person could possibly do on their own. It has its own rewards and advantages, but it sure aint heroic.

The hero charges the machine gun nest, with his grenade in his teeth.

The group works together to do some huge task, and while the ultimate success is always greater, no one Hero can look at Hoover Dam or the Chrysler Building and claim ownership.
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  #33  
Old 11-17-2008, 07:08 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

I agree with this, but the heroes I know never wanted to be heroes at all. In that vein it is an Elizabethan notion to suppose the great ED, lord of the bendy things see's himself or wants to be seen as some lonely genius sculptor alone on the vaporous fringe standing up for all that is true and noble about steel and general 3d stuff. If he actually were that person then I think we'd have never heard from him, here anyway. The mere fact that he and others like him share their knowledge and wisdom on a forum like this says they too like the "group" thing. I suppose in one sense it is a minor technicality, but in another, or at least the way I understand it is a significant difference.
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  #34  
Old 11-17-2008, 07:17 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

what about Joan of Arc and there must be others
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  #35  
Old 11-17-2008, 07:23 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

OK, Ive decided, it only needs the idea, and the making can be done in any way. But in the end its only art if the general consensus agrees that it is and that often relies on marketing/appearance/personality/perception.
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  #36  
Old 11-17-2008, 07:25 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Do you make art or just think about it?
Just think about it, my husband does the making.
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  #37  
Old 11-17-2008, 07:41 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

just curious would your husband be one of the usual suspects here
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  #38  
Old 11-17-2008, 07:45 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

I am very grateful and even influenced by some astounding human architectural acomplishments (the Pulaski Skyway and the Empire State building are my favorites). But it doesn't feel the same as looking at Art. The same could be said of natural wonders like niagra falls or the Grand Canyon. Moving sights to behold, no doubt...but not like Art.
I am affected by the Art that gives me a taste of what went into it. A smidgen of its worth, I realize... but I experience it vicariously...I wish I had done it, because I know how amazing it felt to actually have done it. But if I imagine a clock-punching crew, a phone-tag exchange, a cardboard model or an appeal to trend (historic, contemporary or otherwise), meetings, meetings and more meetings...well, I'm likely to dismiss it as another nothing. And the museums are very full of nothings. This is why we ignore most of the stuff in them. But, we'll gravitate to the Art thats there (they accidentally include some, but its spotty) and stand there awhile.

I dont thnk artists should give a hoot about how they or their work is perceived, nor even IF they are remembered at all. The people in charge of those things are usually writers, historians, critics, curators, directors - a motlely crew of deciders when it comes to the ol' "what is art?" question.

As heros go, they're usually just defenders (but mighty is a good thing). A properly able and motivated artist is likely only defending himself against that sea of impertinence and triviality that would distract him from what must so deperately get done...and alas, get done feverishly for no particular reason at all.
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  #39  
Old 11-17-2008, 09:32 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
in the end its only art if the general consensus agrees that it is
Nah. Some are too early to the party, others are late, some never get invited, and there are those who prefer to drink alone. You can't define it, so the "general consensus"(gag, stammer, choke) is a bogus artifact. Who makes up the voting population? Which ones are believable? Do you have to agree? Make up your own mind first.
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  #40  
Old 11-18-2008, 12:26 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Nah. Some are too early to the party, others are late, some never get invited, and there are those who prefer to drink alone. You can't define it, so the "general consensus"(gag, stammer, choke) is a bogus artifact. Who makes up the voting population? Which ones are believable? Do you have to agree? Make up your own mind first.
Right Joe, the consensus said the world was flat 500 years ago, but it didn't make it true, nor did it make those who believed it liars. Most believe in global warming despite evidence that says we're headed for an ice-age. Lotta people love pickled sharks and steel balloons and fewer perhaps see them as bad jokes.
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  #41  
Old 11-18-2008, 08:38 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Right Joe, the consensus said the world was flat 500 years ago, but it didn't make it true, nor did it make those who believed it liars. Most believe in global warming despite evidence that says we're headed for an ice-age. Lotta people love pickled sharks and steel balloons and fewer perhaps see them as bad jokes.
You have to realize that the vast majority of people are delusional and yet many of them are correct in some of their opinions and interpretations . All you can do is trust your favorite fantasy and have a sense of humor about it. I'm talking about art here. The rest is too real sometimes to be believed.
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  #42  
Old 11-18-2008, 10:06 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Just dont rope ME into this "general consensus" thing.
I used the term, yes, but I said that the general consensus is that art produced by more than one person is not heresy.
I said nothing about consensus determining art, and, although I love Thomas Kinkade as much as the next person, I dont think Consensus does determine art.
In reality, the vast consensus is that the work of Jeff Koons or Matthew Barney is NOT ART- only a very small number of people in the "art world" actually like the stuff. Consensus likes Leroy Neimann, Kinkade, and Chihuly.

I think art is subjective, and is determined by each individual viewer.

Hence, Evaldart has his somewhat narrow, and sometimes shifting definition of what is "Art".

My definition is different.

I have climbed the temple of Borobudur, for example, in Java, and there is no doubt in my mind that its art, and that I can "taste of what went into it".
I think Faberge Eggs are without doubt Art, with a capital A.
Mt. Rushmore is somewhat hackneyed in style, but it still gives me shivers to stand at the base.
The two arms holding swords in Baghdad are sculptures all right in my book, especially with the bases made from heaps of helmets of dead soldiers.
And the work, as I have mentioned, of Anish Kapoor, Richard Serra, Claus Oldenburg, Robert Irwin, Alexander Calder, and a hundred more sculptors I could mention who all use assistants and fabricators to help make their art- I think its all really "art", and I indeed "taste what went into it".
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  #43  
Old 11-18-2008, 10:11 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
You have to realize that the vast majority of people are delusional and yet many of them are correct in some of their opinions and interpretations . All you can do is trust your favorite fantasy and have a sense of humor about it. I'm talking about art here. The rest is too real sometimes to be believed.
I was setting up at the lake on my mother's porch and a sound eminated from the forest across the road.

Me, "Dead pine has fallen."
Mother, "No, that was a gun shot."

So, if a tree falls in the forest was it shot?"

Robert
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  #44  
Old 11-18-2008, 10:36 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Quote:
So, if a tree falls in the forest was it shot?"
Bad logic. Better listen to your mom and stop trying to out smart her.
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  #45  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:23 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Originally Posted by Ries View Post
I think art is subjective, and is determined by each individual viewer.

Hence, Evaldart has his somewhat narrow, and sometimes shifting definition of what is "Art".

My definition is different.
I appreciate this and I'm not trying to corner anyone, I'm just interested in the train of thought. I think my own changes to some degree (perhaps mood based) and within certain parameters, which do have some fairly well defined (or "narrow") bounderies. I dismiss Kinkaid for instance and put him a few notches above the t-shirt sprayers in the mall. Flashy colors and lights, but for me it's all show, no go.

The eggs may take further persuasion and I'm on the fence along with cuckoo-clocks, Rushmores and the like.. I see as much and more Art in a bent piece of rebar fashioned in the appearance of a snake with a laboriously ground and tapered tail as I do in meticulously crafted mini's or majestic sphynx's.

On a completely seperate note; If you haven't sculpted a monkey yet, you have no idea what you're missing.

Last edited by StevenW : 11-18-2008 at 11:34 AM. Reason: repetition..
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  #46  
Old 11-18-2008, 01:38 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

We artists are better off than the rest of humanity because we are able to find visual thrills where they will not. And perception, the fuel of our awareness, occurs most readily through the eyes. So it is not unusual that Ries can find visual worth in many places such as vacation hotspots, architectural tributary excess and lavishly crafted baubles...we all can. That is merely a result of a greater developed "appreciation". But appreciation is behind "enthusiasm", which is behind "passion" which is behind "consumption" which is yet behind the grandaddy of all approaches to Art..."doing" it. So then, we as the doers must discipline within ourselves a PURIFIED relationship with the things in our advantaged visual field that WISH to be Art. Purified, not narrow.

I accept Serra as the premier sculptor of the 20th century...and it is precisely because of his disembodied and focused contestations with thresholded physical forces, uncharted material manipulations and gut-wrenching gravitational choreographies that could bring him personal fulfillings that legitimately exclude his body as a factor. Most of the others who would be in his league are making giant "shells" or steel flatties or are concerning themselves with "surface" issues that amount to nothing more than a faux finish. Of course there are other exceptions out there, but none on his level.

Maybe, right at the point where an object departs from craft or architecture or performance, or commerciality, or ornamentation...right there we begin a 1 - 10 rating, reserving the "finest of the fine" for # 10. I dont think anyone can make 10's all the time...10's require efforts that cannot be maintained nor oft-achieved by simple humans. So we make some 2' and 3's (pay some bills)...toss in a 6.5 as we gather for the storm...and then POW! WE GO FOR THE 10! The success of that 10 will depend upon your determination, will, intellectual and physical capabilities and an unwavering NEED to see it through to the end. And, according to your creative conditioning, it might be some time before you go for that 10 again. I like to see 10's and theres no way anyone will ever convince a group of people to execute at THAT level in a unified effort. The money cant help you...sorry mr. hirst.

Last edited by evaldart : 11-18-2008 at 02:38 PM.
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  #47  
Old 11-19-2008, 08:45 AM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Simple answer to what I thought was a simple question: If you did not design the work it is not art. "Art" is in the concept, which must be executed in some form to be an "artwork". If it was not your design, born of your imagination or fevered dreams - then it is not "art". If you designed it and had someone else execute your design - you're an artist, he's an artisan or craftsman. I know lots of people that claim to be "artists", that use their time executing copies of other peoples work - that is not "Art". Every great once in awile they create something from their own mind, and sometimes from their own hands - that is ART.
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  #48  
Old 11-19-2008, 12:19 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

Okay, so what about a case like the metalwork on Casa Mila, the incredible Gaudi building on the Ramblas in Barcelona.
http://www.cambridge2000.com/gallery.../PC1313033.jpg

If you have seen this stuff in person, you realize that no matter how good a drawing was done in advance, there is an incredible amount of the hand of the metalworker in this piece.

In reality, even though the building is credited to Gaudi, his associate, an incredible architect in his own right, Josep Maria Jujol, "designed" these balconies.

Which means he took sketches to a shop full of master blacksmiths, men who had probably 30 years or more experience learning how to make metal do exactly what they wanted.

These guys then interpreted the drawings, making a lot of design decisions along the way, because everybody knows, architects generally dont understand how hot metal really works.

We end up with a dynamic, living sculptural metalwork, no two balconies the same, every piece made by artisans who used their learned body/knowledge of how metal moves to create the final work.

No doubt, it resembles the initial sketches. But the interpretation, by masters, is what makes it great. If somebody today did a similar initial sketch, then had the whole thing rendered in Rhino, and waterjet cut, I assure you, the essential spirit of these pieces, that in my mind makes the "Art" would not be there.

These pieces have life, feeling, movement and grace- but could ONLY exist if all the players were involved- Gaudi, who designed the overall building and made the stage on which they play, Jujol, who had a lifelong experience working back and forth with some of the finest craftspeople in history, and the blacksmiths themselves. Each, on their own, would have ended up with a different, and probably lesser piece- it took the combined brains and hands of all three to produce something this good.

No heroism here- no singular, genius individual working alone in his studio, channelling the cosmos thru his hands- instead, collaboration, resulting in something more.

I would bet that if you could track down the work of the blacksmith shops who made this, most of their work would be relatively mundane, pierced and punched grid window grilles, which occur on 90% of the buildings in Catalunya. It took the genius of Jujol and Gaudi to create the opportunity, to channel the inner artist in these smiths, and let them do their best.
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  #49  
Old 11-19-2008, 08:15 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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....It took the genius of Jujol and Gaudi to create the opportunity, to channel the inner artist in these smiths, and let them do their best.
A perfect illustration of my opinion. The ART resided in the genius of the designers, combined with their instructions to the artisans and their initial selection of capable blacksmith / artisans. Did any of those artisan blacksmiths reach a level of interpretation on a particular portion of the metalwork which, if combined with the original thought of design, would rise to the level of ART ? Possibly, and first chance I get to see it in person, I will. We'll see how I feel afterward...I'm always willing to accept new evidence to alter my conceptions.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:26 PM
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Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?

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Simple answer to what I thought was a simple question: If you did not design the work it is not art. "Art" is in the concept, which must be executed in some form to be an "artwork". If it was not your design, born of your imagination or fevered dreams - then it is not "art". If you designed it and had someone else execute your design - you're an artist, he's an artisan or craftsman. I know lots of people that claim to be "artists", that use their time executing copies of other peoples work - that is not "Art". Every great once in awile they create something from their own mind, and sometimes from their own hands - that is ART.
Nothing really important has a "simple" answer. Check and you'll see.

And "designing" is just a small, though admittedly useful, part of the coming-to-be of a project. But it predicts way too much, this designing thing. It would have your whole damn art-episode all worked out ahead of time. Its a good thing that Art doesn't like to be all "worked out". Because its best when some terrible mishap forces a change...forces an overcoming, forces a tapping-into of internal resources that you, the maker, only encountered because of intensity and duress. Your souvenir, in the end, is less important than this experience. Gaudi's masters would not be desperate enough to take it to this place, and if they did, they wouldn't be able to give THAT to Gaudi. Those balconies are indeed AMAZING...a far better treat than much of the art I see. But they are excluded by their function and by their subservience.
It needs to be addressed that the reason-for-Art, as it progresses, is being revealed by the falling away (or discarding) of its (the Art's) responsibilities to everything else.
There will inevitably be a day when we can think about it, "design" it, but will not be able to achieve it. Sounds cruel but by then we will have made the kinds of gains to deal with it. We will still be able to experience some drippings by the viewing of it. Not a bad finish to eternity.

BTW, creativity has little use for genius. EVERY perciever can play Art (but not many do). And some play better than others. Geniuses are the newsmakers and oddities that occasionally catch the attention of popular culture. And culture needs their geniuses.

Last edited by evaldart : 11-19-2008 at 10:03 PM.
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