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  #76  
Old 12-16-2008, 11:44 AM
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GlennT GlennT is offline
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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Originally Posted by grommet View Post

Glenn, thanks for the edit; I'm living in a world of people who say "needs done" and other gems that erode language.

Awesome! No prob!

jOe: Great post. You spared me haveing to try again with another response. I love to read, so I have no bias against the wordsmiths. But I also like to experience the world that exists beyond my cranium.
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  #77  
Old 12-16-2008, 12:09 PM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

The only hope for language and grammar is that we continually "erode" it...re-shape it...take liberties with it...work it at the edges of comprehensibility.

We humans all fallaciously attempt to work-together to gain knowledge in the hopes of eventually solving some conundrum that might facilitate the functioning of our ever departing muscle-mush. It only occurs during episodes of pure creativity that we become the thing that we REALLY are...(which only need arms to wring a chickens neck and legs to run from the lions 'or other humans'). It requires a disengaging of oneself from all things not in the immediate periphery to advance into a relationship with a truly OWNED experience. "Busy-ness", chore, drudge, delight, fancy and even yearning is more than enough to keep the average human distracted for, say....78.3 years. It is a rarity, when a substanceless wonder joins (magically) with an unrequired task to your throbbing gristle. The reason that Descartes, Einstein, Dostoevsky and Joyce are markedly inferior to Michelangelo, Carpeaux, Smith and Serra is because thought, no matter how developed and elevated, is only responsible for 50% of perceptive possibility. And the scribbling down of thought...well, it ends up in servitude...more data.

We are irrepairably connected to "reality" as individuals...for now. Perhaps there will be a day when a consciousness can fuel itself without a skull and grabbers...thoughts will swim beautifully in the air, choreographed according to the whims of the genius that imagined them, not needing eyes or ears...just an immersion amongst countless other perceptions...CONSTANT AND TOTAL IMMEDIATE GRATIFICATION FOREVER. But until then, we, the sculptors have got it over all of them...(and some of them are smart enough to know this, but they're self-admittedly too lazy...so they argue against us all the more, HA! but they cannot win).
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  #78  
Old 12-16-2008, 12:15 PM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
The divide here is that "wordsmiths" imagine that all experience is reducible to words, if not chemical formula(Portoro). Future art: read about it before or instead of creating it, or imbibe something to have the experience. Senses? Read about them or imbibe. There is your choice, read or drugs...or so the argument goes. I've tried both, and many other approaches. Words are the weakest, they just don't smell, taste, feel or look anything like the experience they are trying to reduce to arrangements of the alphabet. But if words trump reality for you, have at it. The basis of my thesis from Balzac: "Few people have the imagination for reality". Why? Most are victims of social conscription, lack internal freedom, or too delusional to experience the full experience. Removing the blinders, that is what its all about. But you can't write about that either. Why? Its way too personal.
Thanks Joe. I, for one, appreciate the new designation of "wordsmiths" (from "scribblers").

Don't forget that the scribes out there rely on reasoning based on real or personal experiences (just like us) - as well as book learnin'. We should avoid painting a stereotype of wordsmiths as four-eyed, anti-social geeks who live isolated lives as much as we should steer clear of reducing "sculptors" to being well-toned but brutish, torch wielding, parodies of David Smith or Richard Serra.

You throw those out-of-context quotes around a bit - here are some back at ya. Just for fun:

Language is a skin: I rub my language against the other. It is as if I had words instead of fingers, or fingers at the tip of my words. My language trembles with desire. – Roland Barthes

Work on good prose has three steps: a musical stage when it is composed, an architectonic one when it is built, and a textile one when it is woven. - Walter Benjamin

All human knowledge takes the form of interpretation. - Walter Benjamin

Art requires philosophy, just as philosophy requires art. Otherwise, what would become of beauty? - Paul Gauguin

All you need is love. - John Lennon
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  #79  
Old 12-16-2008, 12:46 PM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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It only occurs during episodes of pure creativity that we become the thing that we REALLY are.... It requires a disengaging of oneself from all things not in the immediate periphery to advance into a relationship with a truly OWNED experience. "Busy-ness", chore, drudge, delight, fancy and even yearning is more than enough to keep the average human distracted for, say....78.3 years. It is a rarity, when a substanceless wonder joins (magically) with an unrequired task to your throbbing gristle.
The Junkyard Buddha speaks. That is the essence and purpose of meditation...to be in the here-and-now...to be awake to what is. Get into that state, grab a couple tools, art happens. Allow the distractors to rule instead, shit happens.
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  #80  
Old 12-16-2008, 12:58 PM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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You throw those out-of-context quotes around a bit
What quote isn't out of context?


Sorry for tripping you with your own words--must of had your glasses off.

Last edited by jOe~ : 12-16-2008 at 01:07 PM. Reason: apology
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  #81  
Old 12-16-2008, 01:19 PM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
What quote isn't out of context?
um?...these....

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
"Penetrating so many secrets, we cease to believe in the unknowable. But there it sits nevertheless, calmly licking its chops". H.L. Mencken

"That the world is, is the mystical." Wittgenstein


Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein


"An independent reality in the ordinary physical sense can neither be ascribed to the phenomenon nor to the agencies of observation". Niels Bohr

You never stated how they were relevant - thus, without context.

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Sorry for tripping you with your own words--must of had your glasses off.
Ahh...hee, hee...I get it...I'm the bookworm - but does that leave you the parody of a sculptor? Flex those muscles Joe....looking good?

Last edited by cheesepaws : 12-17-2008 at 06:26 AM.
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  #82  
Old 12-16-2008, 01:27 PM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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You never stated how they were relevant - thus, without context.
Do I have to explain everything? I get it now. You're trying to convert me. You know it always takes a book to state the obvious clearly.
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  #83  
Old 12-17-2008, 12:15 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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You can still have your religion, and your God, but you are travelling in mental space when you do. Just LOOK at the Sistine ceiling. It’s madness
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Glenn – personally I don’t think we can ever know how everything works, but we can debunk IDEAS that no longer work. I think the God/magical/mystical thing is all over as a meaningful way of naming what we feel, think or experience.
Well Portoro I don't think you are any closer than Glenn in finding "a meaningful way of naming what we feel, think or experience". You are still in a "mental space". Yours is filled with words and supposed "facts", as opposed to Glenn's beliefs. Neither view works for me,but I bet there is more joy felt when people put money on the collection plate in his church, than a handful of coins that pity puts in your tin cup.
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  #84  
Old 12-17-2008, 07:17 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Joe - Perhaps I need to refer you back to my original defence of academics, and others. I don’t propose to live by ‘facts’ and my mental world is not filled with what you refer to as ‘words and supposed facts’, anymore than anyone else’s (although I suspect that ALL our versions of reality have to be founded on a language system that allows us to articulate a reality for us, so even your own version of reality may be founded much more on words than you think). My proposition was that there is nothing that cannot be analysed, and I said this in the context of those artists on the forum who seemed to deny that their work is open to analytical thought.

As for the idea that I am in a ‘mental space’ as much as any religious person - well, in a sense. Brains are brains - they create versions of reality. My reality is my brain-child, and the same goes for religious people, OK. But brains also ‘compute’, and can create complex conclusions. And that is what I am arguing. We can disagree about the conclusions but we should not be denying the analytical approach, as if somehow art, or any other aspect of our behaviour, has a special escape clause from the analytical potential of the brain. Analysis of the atom made splitting it possible. Study of diseases has led to control of them. Analysis relates to REALITY – after the analysis, the atom does actually split. This is knowledge. It’s real. Equally, your art practice CAN be analysed - it’s no different (although the social sciences – that study mankind’s behaviour - have a long way to go to catch up with the rigour of the physical sciences). The brain CAN do all this. The problem with religion, however, is that it cannot do any of this. Its view of the universe, of causality, of why we exist is all OF THE MIND. The primitive psychology (good and evil) should be an embarrassment to any thinking person. All this has been superseded by methodologies (those of the various sciences) that propose to work FROM the facts. Even psychology today is into the role the physical brain plays in the making of who you are. It’s that loss of relation to actuality that makes religion redundant as a source of knowledge. However, if you have a commitment to the ethereal aspects of religion, OK. I like ethereal myself - I just don’t confuse it with REAL. And that’s why Michelangelo’s big fleshy arses on the Sistine Chapel are silly: he has brought reality into religious art, and it doesn’t work. 15-stone men don’t fly - they drop like stones. That’s reality, man. Now, two-dimensional angels flying around the head of a two-dimensional Madonna – I can accept that. The two dimensions remind us of the relation of the image to reality. MY brain can engage with that……
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  #85  
Old 12-17-2008, 08:03 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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My proposition was that there is nothing that cannot be analysed,....Analysis relates to REALITY –......Equally, your art practice CAN be analysed
Sure anything can be analyzed. You can write about anything. You can convince your self of anything. And you can just as easily fool yourself about anything. Wrap your brain around this quote from good old Albert Einstein:
Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and they are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world."

Or try this one, also from Al : As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." You see, I don't think you really know what you're talking about, especially when it comes to reality. And like I've oft quoted..."few people have the imagination for reality". What you can't handle is mystery. And, remember, no object is mysterious. The mystery is only in your mind.

Quote:
if you have a commitment to the ethereal aspects of religion, OK.
Let me restate my "beliefs". I am an atheist. That is as black and white a statement as I can make. I feel comforted by mystery and the inability to "know" some things.
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  #86  
Old 12-17-2008, 08:34 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

“Sure anything can be analyzed. You can write about anything. You can convince your self of anything.” - Joe

No, this is NOT what analysis is about. You are back to your old ‘professors make it all up because it suits them’ default. The methodical, detached and objective pursuit of truth is nothing to do with ‘convincing’ oneself of something. I agree with Einstein that ‘human concepts’ are human creations (They ARE concepts, and only minds create concepts!). But the difference between a scientific concept and a religious one is that the scientific one emerges from the pursuit of evidence or is tested by evidence; a religious one is, at best, intuition. If you now go back to your mate Einstein and ask him whether scientific concepts are no more rigorous than religious ones, I think I know what kind of answer you will get.

Afraid of mystery? What mystery? (By the way, you seem to be proposing to psycho-analyse me here. See, analysis. It’s one of the foundation stones of the human psyche. But are you objective enough, and methodical enough, to use this tool to come to REAL conclusions? Or are you, to use your own dictum, just making up stuff that suits you?).
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  #87  
Old 12-17-2008, 08:34 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Damn Joe, too bad Duchamp and Picasso couldn't pull old Albert over to the dark side. Sounds like he might have had a chance (damned symbols, numerals and scratchings...totally infected him).

The brain is just some more cottage cheese (a cozy place perhaps. perception seems to like that particular less gristly part of our physiology). The analyzing is only a demand of function; a symptom of that unsymbiotic relationship between the two YOUS. Awareness, as yet needs a shoveler and the shoveler requires a chapparoning through his hedonistic episodes. So, some negotiating of physicality occurs between them by processing information. But during the creative process they become equals - the "reality" faced then is the property of both...unifys them in an effort NOT tied to function. And thus, there arrives a new "place" for this to occur. A place untainted by the demands of all those conniving, pain-in-the-ass Truths.
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  #88  
Old 12-17-2008, 08:40 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Here is what I think of Pontermo's perspective as stated.

It is like two twins in a womb. One of the twins has completely analyzed the nature of the womb, and is certain on that basis that everything that can be known about the science of himself, his twin, and womb substance contains the entire scope of reality. The other twin believes that there is something else besides the womb, himself, and his twin. He has discovered that his body is a vehicle for his soul to inhabit, which is a seperate, distinct, and more permanent aspect of himself. He has discovered this during periods of rest when his soul leaves the little body and goes to a different realm, and the memories, experiences, and interactions in that realm are remembered. He learns that the womb is just a temporary abode for development.

This twin is born first, and finds that as he believed from his out of body experiences, there is in fact a whole new world out there waiting to be explored. Meanwhile the other twin mourns his apparent death, and becomes so distraught by being left alone that he can't get over the grief. The traumatic sudden disappearence of the other twin is a conundrum that makes no sense, but hopefully enough analysis will get to the bottom of it.
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  #89  
Old 12-17-2008, 08:51 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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The methodical, detached and objective pursuit of truth is nothing to do with ‘convincing’ oneself of something. I agree with Einstein that ‘human concepts’ are human creations
You must not of had your coffee this morning as your "methodical, detached and objective pursuit of truth" is only working to convince itself of what it wants to believe/see/read. Read the Einstein quote again: Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and they are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world." Quite radical isn't it when read properly. Do re-read his other quote about mathematics.

And yes
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You are back to your old ‘professors make it all up because it suits them’ default
That is exactly what you just did in your misreading.
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  #90  
Old 12-17-2008, 08:57 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

I should add to all this a thought that Whitman offered us – ‘I contain multitudes’. All we are doing on this forum is creating text. I don’t think that the religious views of those on the forum are a measure of those people, their experience or actions, all of which sits behind the text - a mystery! This might apply to atheists and rationalists as well.
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  #91  
Old 12-17-2008, 08:57 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Let me add one thing for clarity. If the Einstein quotes don't boggle and confuse your mind, then you haven't begun to "understand " them.
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  #92  
Old 12-17-2008, 09:34 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Any thoughts on why the great minds of former generations were poets (eg Milton/Shakespeare/Wordsworth), artists (Michelangelo etc) and philosophers (Descartes etc) - all men of 'culture'. Now, the great minds and talents are associated with science. Was Picasso to be the last art-genius? Now you have to be a mathematician?

For the purposes of Soul Holders dissertation, why would a great mind turn to art nowadays? Once at the forefront of change and advance, isn't it just something of a sideshow now? A purely personal thing?

Last edited by Portoro : 12-17-2008 at 09:48 AM.
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  #93  
Old 12-17-2008, 09:36 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility.... The fact that it is comprehensible is a miracle. - Albert Einstein


There – you both win! Now can we stop backing up arguments with empty quotes. After all:


A witty saying proves nothing. Voltaire

I have gathered a posie of other men’s flowers, and nothing but the thread that binds them is mine own. - John Bartlett

Quoting: the act of repeating erroneously the words of another. - Ambrose Bierce

He who trains his tongue to quote the learned sages, will be known far and wide as a smart ass. - Howard Kandel
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  #94  
Old 12-17-2008, 09:47 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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He who trains his tongue to quote the learned sages, will be known far and wide as a smart ass. - Howard Kandel
You are on to me. With the emphasis on smart and ass. And until Portoro addresses his failings as pointed out in my post #89, well, he is not deserving of any more quotes. And you Cheesepaws are so out of context it makes everything seem relative. Maybe I should quote myself?
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  #95  
Old 12-17-2008, 09:52 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Ah, my failings. Don't start on my failings .
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  #96  
Old 12-17-2008, 10:08 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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Ah, my failings. Don't start on my failings
Don't take it personal. Its not you. Its what the Junkyard Buddha called "just some more cottage cheese".
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  #97  
Old 12-17-2008, 10:10 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Maybe I should quote myself?
There, I did it for you!


...of course who hasn't heard a bastardized version of this famous Joe quote:

Go Quote Yerself...(with "quote" sometimes replaced with another - more direct - word)
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  #98  
Old 12-17-2008, 10:15 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Glenn's setting up an astral projection tour. Who wants the window seat?
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Old 12-17-2008, 10:28 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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Glenn's setting up an astral projection tour. Who wants the window seat?
Sorry, the astral stuff is on some of those youtube links on another thread. My destination is the Etheric retreats. Not sure if you would make it past the security screening. The attitude could get confiscated.
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  #100  
Old 12-17-2008, 10:33 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

i can shed attitude like rain gear when the sun shines. Besides, I've already been there and chose not to buy the T-shirt. The t-shirts were a questionable idea anyway, given the circumstances.
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