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  #51  
Old 12-15-2008, 02:52 PM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Quote:
Polarizing proclamationism and narcissustential exclusive singularism are part of the proper attire for discussions that involve super/trans/post/extra-human concerns such as Art and...the things that might be Art. If you haven't got enough confidence in your current positions...
I'm not trying to hog any credit here but this is exactly what I meant, and a whole lot more, when I said that there is always Something Else.
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  #52  
Old 12-15-2008, 04:20 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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Originally Posted by jOe~
Glenn, duck! She is throwing her slippers at you!

False alarm. She already used her slippers for the body of her "crab from hell" sculpture!
You're both full of it, I don't own any slippers and the leather on the crab's body is from when i recovered the arms of the chair... Are you sayin' i should have used it to make slippers???
Reduce re-use recycle

Quote:
I'm not trying to hog any credit here but this is exactly what I meant, and a whole lot more, when I said that there is always Something Else.
So you mean all this and anything else that comes to mind from now until infinity, dibs? yeah, I know, when somebody says the same thing you said, only now it sounds cool to everyone you just wanna...
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Last edited by grommet : 12-15-2008 at 04:35 PM.
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  #53  
Old 12-15-2008, 06:39 PM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

I didn't have any intension's when i started down this path but i have been intent on putting my socks on for a few hours now.

just make something and let it go find a home.
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  #54  
Old 12-16-2008, 03:00 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Nah - I’ve got to defend the writers again.

Joe – you refer, in post 40, to “all the stuff the Profs make up to earn their pay.” This reminds me of the kind of thing I associate with teenagers struggling to get to grips with the basics of the discipline (in this case, art history or aesthetics). Artists are the people who MAKE UP stuff. Art historians and academics don’t have that freedom, they are involved in the study of their subject, and the principles of art historical research are rigorous and disciplined. (By the way, you quote Herbert Read to support one of your points – art historian, I believe).

As for “they don’t understand creativity or how art is made” (argued by artists to ring-fence their territory, I suspect). Many of the academics at universities and art colleges, who are writing and publishing, are artists too. I would also reject this notion that you have to be able to make it to understand it. You not only insult the academic, but your audience as well. By the way, I also hold to the view that EVERYTHING can be analysed. Artists aren’t doing anything so profound that their practice cannot be taken apart and explained, like every other aspect of human behaviour. Making art is a behaviourism, and there is a body of disciplined analysis out there on what you’re up to when you practice it. Nothing’s a mystery anymore, nothing is ‘magic’. All human behaviour works by analysable principles, even the art thing.

PS - Herbert Read: interesting man - poet, literary critic, art historian, university academic, anarchist, into psychoanalysis. I like his work on the theory of perception (very revealing about what we do when we make art).

Last edited by Portoro : 12-16-2008 at 04:28 AM.
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  #55  
Old 12-16-2008, 06:50 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Ahhhh, that's the stuff Portoro. A common attitude in these parts is one of either complete dismissal or the accusations of others of being charlatans when personal views of art are not met. This is a shame considering an ounce of "walk a mile in another's shoes" would most likely illustrate how we are all connected and dismiss these poorly formed assumptions about what the “others” do.

Art historians are a funny bunch – what do they have to gain by doing that thing they do? Even after 7-10 years of grueling graduate schooling, there are VERY few jobs that allow them to support their research. Those with jobs are usually paid dismally! They are forced to endlessly write grants – taking time away from research – and these grants, like the scant jobs – are extremely competitive. Their research is reviewed meticulously (and brutally) before publication by panels of peers – they cannot afford to “make up stuff”. If they do happen to land an article or a book (after years of dedicated research/editing) they face a HUGE amount of debt. A lot of published historians are required to pay the copyright fees for images out of pocket (amounting to thousands of $$$ for those image heavy books we all love). Even then – the vast majority of books that they write are geared toward continued academic research – they rarely see much money from these. It is as pure a labor of love as any creative efforts we might undertake. They do it because THEY LOVE ART and, even more so, they love the connections art has to all aspects of the human condition.

Contemporary critics – however – are a mixed bag.

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All human behaviour works by analysable principles, even the art thing.
That’s the exciting part about making Art.
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  #56  
Old 12-16-2008, 07:20 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

[quote=Portoro;69875] By the way, I also hold to the view that EVERYTHING can be analysed. Artists aren’t doing anything so profound that their practice cannot be taken apart and explained, like every other aspect of human behaviour. QUOTE]


....in walks the savant idiot and performs……….
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  #57  
Old 12-16-2008, 07:32 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Hmmmm. Looks like we've got some sheep hiding in wolf-suits. LUNCH TIME!

But seriously, it is asking very little of yourself to simply find a proper place amongst your species, work real hard doing something that you like, eat, drink, crap because all the "reports" from the braniacs suggest that there isno "magic" out there to be had. (The languagers dont know what "magic" is so they didn't make a word for it...sculptors know its there).

Art historians and critics et al, depend upon the uniqueness of their thought to move them along. This involves their own brand of creativity - "research" just means you're reading what was written before yours was written so you know what angle NOT to take.

OOOps 830...gotta get the kids to school.
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  #58  
Old 12-16-2008, 07:37 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

And without that magic you may as well be standing at an assembly line making bags of potato chips..
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  #59  
Old 12-16-2008, 08:06 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Well, without wishing to propose that I know what I’m talking about - ‘magic’ is one of those knowledge-gap words. You know the type. God was one too, until all the gaps He occupied were filled up with newer versions of how things work. The ‘magic’ you experience is what all individuals experience as the brain whirrs away in an individual skull. It’s not tied to sculpting (Evaldart) anymore than it is to taking LSD or sky-diving. But it can still be analysed and given a chemical formulae, it can still be tied down to specific brain functions. Its behaviour, and it can be linked to a pathology. Magic’s something we all can do, it doesn’t belong to anyone or any activity in particular, although only YOU will experience your particular version of it. Even the art historians are getting it – the creative thrill, the making thing. Nothing special here….
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  #60  
Old 12-16-2008, 08:12 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

"Penetrating so many secrets, we cease to believe in the unknowable. But there it sits nevertheless, calmly licking its chops". H.L. Mencken

"That the world is, is the mystical." Wittgenstein


Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein


"An independent reality in the ordinary physical sense can neither be ascribed to the phenomenon nor to the agencies of observation". Niels Bohr

NOW just wait until I get my morning coffee, you believers, dupes, and slaves of popular mythology.
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  #61  
Old 12-16-2008, 08:32 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Portoro is correct in one sense. For those who shut out the mystical aspects of life, it will not appear in their consciousness. If someone wants to rationalize every experience as a product of brain behavior and chemical formulae, fine for them, but too bad as well. It is kind of like saying that soccer or music is just a game of mathmatical forumla, and then never getting out of the closet and playing an hour of improvisation with a team.

I was puzzled by the idea that God is a "knowledge-gap word" that is no longer needed because we who are so much better informed today know how things work. Even if you knew how everything works (which the hysteria about "human-caused global warming" demonstrates is not the case), knowing how things work is the provenance of science. Creating the workings is the provenance of God.
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  #62  
Old 12-16-2008, 08:36 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

‘Mystical’, ‘imagination’. All labels. I experience this stuff too. But the mystical is just small stuff connecting up with big stuff (me/universe); imagination is another name for an adaptive biological mechanism and maybe what the brain does when it’s drunk on its own content.
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  #63  
Old 12-16-2008, 08:48 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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‘Mystical’, ‘imagination’. All labels. I experience this stuff too. But the mystical is just small stuff connecting up with big stuff (me/universe); imagination is another name for an adaptive biological mechanism and maybe what the brain does when it’s drunk on its own content.
By your descriptions I'm not convinced that you have experienced "this stuff".
I acknowledge that you have experienced something, but that of which I speak has nothing to do with "brain drunkedness" or biological mechanisms. It has to do with escaping the limits of those mechanisms to experience "something else", as jOe might say, or "God" as I would say, in my humble preference for That particular "label".
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  #64  
Old 12-16-2008, 08:59 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Glenn – personally I don’t think we can ever know how everything works, but we can debunk IDEAS that no longer work. I think the God/magical/mystical thing is all over as a meaningful way of naming what we feel, think or experience. It only works now if you forget most of what you know. And, as for losing the ‘magic’ - when I fall in love I don’t think ‘Ah, another opportunity to procreate my genes’ – I just fall in love. As individuals we live it; as theorists we propose to understand it.
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  #65  
Old 12-16-2008, 09:17 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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Originally Posted by Portoro View Post
‘Mystical’, ‘imagination’. All labels. I experience this stuff too. But the mystical is just small stuff connecting up with big stuff (me/universe); imagination is another name for an adaptive biological mechanism and maybe what the brain does when it’s drunk on its own content.
I disagree. I'd say that in much the same way that some people must physically get out and explore, other people must get in and explore-- imagination. it has nothing to do with being content, rather a seeking. Sometimes it's easier, sometimes you stumble over a log & down a ravine.

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And, as for losing the ‘magic’ - when I fall in love I don’t think ‘Ah, another opportunity to procreate my genes’ – I just fall in love. As individuals we live it...
Hence the beauty of an instinctive behavior; you don't have to think about it, it's already there.
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  #66  
Old 12-16-2008, 09:19 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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knowing how things work is the provenance of science. Creating the workings is the provenance of God.
Quite right GlennT,... The historians and paleontologists and rationalizers of dinosaurs, gods and art can all conject, contrive, speculate, postulate and theorize, but they can never be that which they disassemble in their mad-scientist laboratories. I have nothing personal against the scribblers, nor do I wish them to live a life of destitution and poverty performing their valiant scribbling. The truths they seek to obtain and secrets uncover on a single matter are far more delightful both in their pursuit and apprehension than the fictions of any thousand hollywood scripts. Nonetheless; Walking with dinosaurs barely scratches the surface of what it was actually like to be a dinosaur and the endless volumes on Michelangelo all neglect that he had a chronic itch on his left knee due to Atopic Dermititis, which is what the Creation of Adam was originally all about.
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  #67  
Old 12-16-2008, 09:28 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Is Soul Holder still out there? I think we may have widened the scope of his dissertation a tad here .
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  #68  
Old 12-16-2008, 09:38 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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Is Soul Holder still out there? I think we may have widened the scope of his dissertation a tad here .
just business as usual in the land of just trying to keep a grip.

So do you think God is a construct to keep humble the people that are too full of themselves?
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  #69  
Old 12-16-2008, 09:48 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Grommet – I agree with you about going IN to explore. Means a lot to me, and, I think, to most artists.

As for God - He’s one of my great obsessions, and I hope He has a sense of humour!
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  #70  
Old 12-16-2008, 10:10 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

The idea that "the God thing is over" because we have a better understanding of how the human mind works is as irrational as someone in the 16th century saying, " We no longer need concern ourselves with understanding God, Michelangelo just painted him for us."

As for evidence that God has a sense of humor, we need but to look in the mirror.
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  #71  
Old 12-16-2008, 10:13 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

so that would be a yes on my question, from Glenn
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  #72  
Old 12-16-2008, 10:16 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

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so that would be a yes on my question, from Glenn
Do you have to be so subtle?

P.S. It's "people who are", not "people that are." Your humble editor.
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  #73  
Old 12-16-2008, 10:29 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

Glenn – I think Michelangelo and that Renaissance lot themselves contributed to the demythologising of God/religion. All that two-dimensional medieval art suddenly became flying 15-stone Old Testament giants in perspective (on the Sistine Chapel ceiling, some with their bums hanging absurdly out). Take two-dimensional reality (all that mythology) and give it three dimensions, make it conform to the principles of real bodies in real space, and it all begins to look silly. That’s what happens when you take myth and try to make it fact. Religion is not seriously active in the fact business anymore. That IS science. You can still have your religion, and your God, but you are travelling in mental space when you do. Just LOOK at the Sistine ceiling. It’s madness!
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  #74  
Old 12-16-2008, 10:36 AM
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

The divide here is that "wordsmiths" imagine that all experience is reducible to words, if not chemical formula(Portoro). Future art: read about it before or instead of creating it, or imbibe something to have the experience. Senses? Read about them or imbibe. There is your choice, read or drugs...or so the argument goes. I've tried both, and many other approaches. Words are the weakest, they just don't smell, taste, feel or look anything like the experience they are trying to reduce to arrangements of the alphabet. But if words trump reality for you, have at it. The basis of my thesis from Balzac: "Few people have the imagination for reality". Why? Most are victims of social conscription, lack internal freedom, or too delusional to experience the full experience. Removing the blinders, that is what its all about. But you can't write about that either. Why? Its way too personal.
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  #75  
Old 12-16-2008, 10:47 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: What's your intension as an artist?

This looks like an interesting book 9780823227228"]http://www.fordhampress.com/detail.html?id=9780823227228[/url]
I agree, reading will never replace the experience, it can only direct you to them. --You ever have a boss who was all book learnin' & never actually performed the things they're directiing? Disaster.


Glenn, thanks for the edit; I'm living in a world of people who say "needs done" and other gems that erode language.
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