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  #76  
Old 06-13-2008, 09:04 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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toiling on an object with "artsy feelings" and without the intention of every showing anyone what one is working on - is simply masturbation, not art. (ouch!...I can feel the pain from saying that already..)
Like Woody Allen said: "The best part of masturbation is the cuddling afterward".
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  #77  
Old 06-13-2008, 09:11 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

The job of Art, if it must have one, will serve the mundane just fine - if thats what you choose to address. But do not be mistaken in then believing that your work is about that mundane-ness or that it has anything more to do that which inspired it. If it has made it to Art it will have disconnected itself from its origins - and be its own ultimately pertinent thing.

And regarding the "obvious"; that too can bring-about pertinence, but not because it is being celebrated or embraced; only because the selected obviousness has undergone the proper transformation. An example of great pertinence derived from mundane activity would be the Bachman Turner Overdrive song "Taking Care of Business". That creative effort made it to High Art not because of the lyric content, which is just another obvious and predictable account of artistry-as-an-alternate-view denying the grinding and chaotic hum-drum of a current society; no, that song just ROCKS...period, all by itself.

That aformentioned dinner-fork, could indeed result in Art, but it would not, in any fashion, be usable any longer as a dinner-fork.
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  #78  
Old 06-13-2008, 09:34 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

In the lofty aeries of the realm of Glenn, beauty rather than function is the golden bar that must be passed in order to enter the sacred precinct known as art. Inspirational can also be utilized in lieu of beauty by the gifted few.

So, for example, Moorish tiles = beauty + function = art , whereas Dead shark in the tank = ugly + non functional = not art, nice try, come back later when you've matured from a rich trickster to a serious artist.

Volleyball, anyone?
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  #79  
Old 06-13-2008, 09:52 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Volleyball, anyone?
Only if you can handle my mean serve. You never know where its gonna hit and its got a lot of spin. And, we'd better clarify the rules first.
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  #80  
Old 06-13-2008, 10:20 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

When speaking of individual pieces, or even artists, styles or movements, our own personal preferences, of course, should trump all other views; but we can go round and round with that forever (and we do). Fine.

I don't like that dead shark piece either, immediate exclusion from that massive, yet to be published tome, "Evaldart Through the Ages". But this does not at all mean that a dead shark could not bring-about some real Fine Art. It will take a supremely elevated effort and I'd like to see that for sure.

Marble, clay and scrap metal fail to make it to Art quite often also.
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  #81  
Old 06-13-2008, 10:45 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

does no one here consider themselves to be a craft artist? or even considered that there exists a merging of craft and fine art and that the two are not separate but involved in an intimate relationship that makes them inseparable? a good example of someone i consider to be a craft artist is Martin Puryear. what do you think?
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  #82  
Old 06-13-2008, 10:51 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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does no one here consider themselves to be a craft artist? or even considered that there exists a merging of craft and fine art and that the two are not separate but involved in an intimate relationship that makes them inseparable? a good example of someone i consider to be a craft artist is Martin Puryear. what do you think?
Puryear would tell you that you are dead wrong.

However - most of us would agree.

Lastly, I do believe (and have already said earlier on) that there are lots of "mixes" of Craft and Art - but they can also be exclusive of each other. Personally, I do not intentionally engage Craft traditions or history - but I employ craftsmanship all the time to make my Art do what it needs to do.
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  #83  
Old 06-13-2008, 07:00 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

By thier own definition niether wouldthe MOMA attach Puryear to craft - THOUGH, having seen the famed retrospective I did indeed notice later works that seemed to me to pay a great amount of attention to craft. I could see in those works a pleasure taken in the refinement or finishing that overwhelmed the form - a glossiness that betrayed a concern with presentation as opposed to presence. Those were the stinkers in an otherwise amazing exhibit. I wonder if this occurs often as artists advance in age - does emphasis and laboriousness shift to the parts of artmaking that are more agreeable to a waning physicality? Does the "craft" get revisited to a new degree?

Last edited by evaldart : 06-13-2008 at 08:07 PM.
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  #84  
Old 06-13-2008, 07:42 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

I associate craft with repetition, the perfection of a method. A pastry chef may make beautiful pastries that can approach art, chocolate sculptures and towering souffle's all wonderfully adorned. The repetition and perfection of the methods used to make such things make it seem like art, but it isn't..

Great art takes that repetition and method (craft) for granted, because it has long since been honed and the attention then becomes focused on the art itself.
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  #85  
Old 06-14-2008, 01:05 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

A big difference between art and craft is the " Timelyness Factor ". Crafted objects often are associated with tradition that works/function regardless of when it's made. Art, however often exhibits an urgency that feels firmly grounded in the present.......with all it's passion, immediacy and flaws. Art looks like a direct response to something going on right now.

Crafted objects take time, art objects take no time at all. That's an exageration but I think a train eye can tell the difference. Art exhibits a human flaw that do to one factor or another makes it different than craft which seems to want to eliminate that human flaw out of the work. Craft strives for perfection and beauty while art just wants out as soon as possible, no matter what.

Alot of art is poorly crafted but we love it any way, often more than the most finely crafted objects because it possesses and depicts an intense urgency that defies better tastes and better circumstances ......to express something that can't wait. Art says " Now ".......Craft says " When conditions are right ".

The Timelyness Factor, maybe not the biggest difference between the Arts and Crafts.......but one to be considered.
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  #86  
Old 06-14-2008, 01:29 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

All very interesting Allenring, but I disagree.. I was thinking today as I was laying down the fourteenth case of bathroom tile in my almost remodeled bathroom and I came across a disturbing thought. What if Paws is on to something being the intuitive and smart chap that he is, but he just missed the mark? The whole art in a darkroom thing bothered me and the whole notion of liberalism bothers me and bathroom tile most certainly bothered me even more.. I asked myself, what is the difference between laying bathroom tile and makiing a marble sculpture? Without going into the myriad of details.. Anyway, I turned on the tv when I was done, something I hardly ever do and the batlestar galactica folks landed on earth finally to see that it lay in ruins.. It all struck me at that very moment and came together like a collapsing black hole...

The reason we can't define art or quantify it is because it does not exist.. Even with the lights on it is merely an abstraction itself, like god, liberalism and Obama, it is a utopian fantasy, an ideal, a myth... Just souped up bathroom tile.
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  #87  
Old 06-14-2008, 02:44 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

We're all doomed, on a private and public level, sooner or later wiped out by our own stupidity or blind nature. History repeats it's self, reason enough to abandon all hope.

If sculpture has any meaning, it's in the long run, fossils to be seen and contemplated by future intellegence. They will bonder the difference between art and craft, seeing the disturbing fine line between one and the other........and it will bug the hell out of them.....they'll argue about which is more relavent and important just like we do. History repeats it's self.

While all that's going on, the nuturing mothers will be singing to their kids, hoping that they will have a better future than they do, wishing that their child will make a difference and do great things that will make life for everybody more meaningful. Most of those kids will focus on doing what must be done to maintain family.......but a few will focus on the long run and make pictures and objects that will only impact on those in the distant future. To what end ?

Life is full of interdependant relationships, all kinds of shared time, just one of the herd. Seldom a private moment for personnel joy or reflection. Then we encounter a work of art that actually connects with us and we realise that some one out there had a one on one experience with themselves and experienced a one of a kind private actualization that could travell across centries and beyond and still be fresh.

Sculpture is the only art form that can endure the length of time to communicate with far distant relatives. Every thing else will be lost to the friction of time. The message is simple.....you're not unique......we were here too......in the here and now and we really thought about that before we died.

You're going to die, make something.
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  #88  
Old 06-14-2008, 03:52 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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In the lofty aeries of the realm of Glenn, beauty rather than function is the golden bar that must be passed in order to enter the sacred precinct known as art. Inspirational can also be utilized in lieu of beauty by the gifted few.
I find the "art as beauty" argument to be a precipitously slippery slope. There is a plaque at a small ledge near the summit of Slide Mountain in the Catskill park in New York with the statement, "Here the works of man dwindle", accredited to John Burroughs. And they do. If beauty alone is the bar, we should all quit welding, carving and casting and become gardeners. The beauty of the natural world trumps most art objects most of the time...which is perhaps why so many people seek to mimic it in their work.

I find the shark in a tank, or bisected cows ("Mother and Child Divided", which I recently saw) horrible to look at, revolting and frankly, I wish those works- and the perceived need to make them- didn`t exist. But they sure do spark thought and conversation.

On a figurative note, how does everyone feel about Ron Muek? He has certainly made the transition from someone getting paid-and working as a craftsperson to someone being accoladed as an artist. And like Lucian Freud, he is working in a completely representational style that has the power to engage brain as well as sense.

Bill
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  #89  
Old 06-14-2008, 06:28 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Well now we're getting somewhere. Aarons idea that real Art is created under a condition of immediate desperation, possibly hamfisted by its urgency... and totally unique as a result...yes. And Steven suspecting that Art is like God, an unattainable ideal, a praised no-show - only actually present in divine optimism and...faith. Yes. Right Wolf, of course beauty has nothing to do with it...Pertinence is what Art is for, and that can look like anything. While Mueck has certainly taken his elevated craftings to the Artosphere, he has become a bit of a spectacle - and the pressures of Mueck and doing what Mueck does has and will diminish his efforts. I like him though.

Yet I dont think any artist should bother with the thought of his object surviving the ages to enlighten or communicate to other generationas or races. Too much function in that. It simply should be incidentally rewarding as a suppliment to conciousness, a protien pill to the awares of its maker, a tiny stone to step-on in a horizonless sea of black usefulness. I hate the thought that one day my Art will be sorely misinterpreted by historians or anthropologists - providing them with dissertations, pages and pages of dreamed-up concoctions...I wish they'd stick with the urns and vases and salad bowls...the craft. Then they wouldn't be offending me (because you never know, I might still be floating around somehow, all my essence blown into some kind of soul balloon, unable to touch but able to feel.

Last edited by evaldart : 06-14-2008 at 08:31 AM.
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  #90  
Old 06-14-2008, 08:27 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Hi, I think that art makes you think and craft is something you eat your spaghetti off of!
INTENT is everything!
Have a great day,
Jeff
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  #91  
Old 06-14-2008, 09:18 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Well that's true, even one of those lawyer or judge things will tell you intent is 9/10 th's of the law, but that leaves 10% unnaccounted for, like some dark-matter in the art universe..

Indeed, if I look at how many pieces "almost" made it or failed utterly under my scrutinizing eye to attain the level of "blank" that I consider to be art, then the dark matter of art becomes much larger in scope..
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  #92  
Old 06-15-2008, 08:18 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Hi, Yes, there can be a fine line between art and craft but I try my best to stay on the "art" side of things or at the very least trust my taste, judgement and discerning eye to keep me there.
Have a great day,
Jeff
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  #93  
Old 06-15-2008, 08:14 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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I asked myself, what is the difference between laying bathroom tile and makiing a marble sculpture?
I hate to be the one to tell you this... but if you are using a chisel to lay those tiles you might be doing something wrong.

Seriously, it IS all artifice - but that is the nature of history. If it is the intent of the art maker - the professional artist - to see their work engaged by/with established art history - then what they make with those intentions can only be art. Laying tiles is simply work - unless you call it art. Even then, it requires an agent of art history (critics, historians, theorists) to grant entry into that hallowed establishment. Unfortunately, art historians and critics are demanding and fickle bed mates. It may all be an illusions...and I may know that...but I still want in!

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Without going into the myriad of details.. Anyway, I turned on the tv when I was done, something I hardly ever do and the batlestar galactica folks landed on earth finally to see that it lay in ruins.. It all struck me at that very moment and came together like a collapsing black hole...
Really! What a dork...watching Battlestar Galactica. (Actually, I tuned out right after Doctor Who - I won't watch Galactica until they make Starbuck a dude again - as God intended.)

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Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
The reason we can't define art or quantify it is because it does not exist.. Even with the lights on it is merely an abstraction itself, like god, liberalism and Obama, it is a utopian fantasy, an ideal, a myth... Just souped up bathroom tile.
All true, but if all structure in our lives is basically artificial - and as long as we can all agree that nothing really exists - then we should have no problem assigning values to things. Art history is a stab in the dark at some of those values. It may not be perfect, but it is a place to start - even if to disagree with those values.

As artists we don't do our arguing with words (like critics) but instead go for the jugular and counter move directly with or against the works of art history themselves. That's the eternal struggle - the dialogue across time. A battle (at times) for which we are armed only with our primal impulses to create and our academic training to reject.

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Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
What if Paws is on to something being the intuitive and smart chap that he is, but he just missed the mark?
(in my best Robin Hood voice) I never miss.

Last edited by cheesepaws : 06-16-2008 at 05:10 AM.
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  #94  
Old 06-16-2008, 12:35 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Hey Cheesepaws, that's the attitude !!!! Maybe that's one of the lines we should talk about.

The artist does the cherry on top.

Attitude is everything........and though we may hide or cloak our attitude in friendly panter and politically correct language, when all is said and done we're the artist, not the architect, not the developer or producer, the craftsman, the tradesman, the plumber, electrician, drywall guy.....etc.

We are the artist, the person who dots the sentence, the person who is responsible for the most memorable element in any collective endeavor. Our work means the most.

Everyone else simply serves to put us in the best light. The artist is the biggest damned deal in town.....hence all the ego.....and venom......passion......love.....jealousy.....ange r.....and strong opinions.

People want to be the artist or at least serve them. That's a fact, the one fact we pussy foot around when we talk about the art game.

Anybody who is going to step up and assume the role of " The Artist ", has to be prepared to take center stage and out shine all others. It's not an easy role to play considering the quality and professionalism of all the other characters in the play. One must have their act together. All eyes land on the artist, the work will be judged......harshly..... by all concerned.

Get out of my way, give me a hand, I'm the artist......and I'm here to make all of you look good.

Attitude is the biggest difference between artist and craftsman.
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  #95  
Old 06-16-2008, 03:47 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Wake up every morning, re-consider again everything you've ever done before, try your best not to just do it again, trip over something new and fall ass over elbows into a revelation. Art arrived. Next morning, see if you can make that day happen again.

The day of the craftsman is quite different.
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  #96  
Old 06-16-2008, 06:22 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

No chisels on the tile, well, I actually did use a flat to get some of the excess mortar cleared away from the night before but that was strictly surgical and I wanted them to line up exact.

I also used them on the finish plaster for texturing a relief of an impressionst-deco swan or swan/dragon thing.

Ya, I know I'm a dork... And I concur, Starbuck should be a dude and the new Dr. Who is great and erm.. I'm hoping for a Theodore Sturgeon type of ending with Galactica (a-la Rescue Party, which is a must read for any homo-victorious type) and not some dreary "we're all dead from a nuclear war and that's that" crap.
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  #97  
Old 06-16-2008, 08:28 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Had you laid a mosaic with your bathroom tiles, you could have been creating art instead of craft.
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  #98  
Old 06-16-2008, 11:33 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Well, I dunno and that was sort-of my point in an indirect way I guess..

I can be aiming for art, (intent) but even if I did something truly out-of-this-world it would still just be a place to poop and take a shower.

I did do a nice job on the plaster and tonight I'll shoot the whole thing with primer and do some nice paint work, but art? Hmm...

On the other hand, maybe it's true and I'm missing the point.. One of my favorite things to do is look at kid-art, 1st-6th graders (I wonder if that makes me a pedo-art-phile? :\). They have none of our book ruinings, inhibitions, guilts, fears, worries, or other kinds of mental and emotional clutter. When you tell a kid to make art; painting, clay or whatever, that's exactly what they do. Sure, the technical skills are underdeveloped, but the results are often astounding and they are so creative. Pink elephants and polk-dot giraffes.. How many greats kept in touch with that child within themselves and communicated that essence in their work? Perhaps one of the reasons a Cornell or even a Koonz can soar in popularity.
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  #99  
Old 06-16-2008, 03:22 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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They have none of our book ruinings, inhibitions, guilts, fears, worries, or other kinds of mental and emotional clutter.


Clutter!?!?! All the things that make art relevant and entrenched in a cultural discourse with theater, poetry, psychology, history, science (among others) as well as broader notions like mortality, identity, and the ever popular beauty!!!

Children's "A"rt is an oxymoron.
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  #100  
Old 06-16-2008, 04:30 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Well sure, it's easy to dismiss kids and pink elephants on an academic level, but if we are talking about things like intent playing such a large role in the creation of art, show me any 3rd grader who doesn't intend to do their very best and then takes great pride in doing so. Adults are just big kids, aren't they? And if all that culture and theatre, book learning and politics means more than the trying or intent, then well..

Back to what I said before, art doesn't exist.
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