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  #51  
Old 06-12-2008, 11:36 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

The history of Art is one that chonicles a visual social device - not the tale of what might have or could have been. One may intend for solitary studio scramblings to be art, but until witnessed (note: not validated) they are nothing more than odd shaped objects crafted with good intentions.

In my opinion.
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  #52  
Old 06-12-2008, 11:39 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

You are right about history. But I'm talking about the person working, questioning, creating, by them selves. So, you never know what you have accomplished until you get validation...? Must be tough to avoid the blind alleys.
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  #53  
Old 06-12-2008, 11:46 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Usually we argue here, "is is art"? Now its "at what point in time is it art, under what conditions"? Do we need to pre-qualify the audience? Consider that mess after seeing what experts have done in something so straight forward as pre-qualifying home loans.
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  #54  
Old 06-12-2008, 11:49 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
You are right about history. But I'm talking about the person working, questioning, creating, by them selves. So, you never know what you have accomplished until you get validation...? Must be tough to avoid the blind alleys.
I think there is way more "Art" that ends up in the dump than on gallery walls (when they are different places ).

Again, I am not talking about validation. That conotes a value judgement. Simply that the work is beheld. That Art's primary function is to be seen - not to communicate, or teach, or impart or anything else. Just to be seen.
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  #55  
Old 06-12-2008, 11:51 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Usually we argue here, "is is art"? Now its "at what point in time is it art, under what conditions"? Do we need to pre-qualify the audience?
Nope, any audience will do.
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  #56  
Old 06-12-2008, 11:55 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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That Art's primary function is to be seen
Here is the core of the difficulty. You are confusing function with essence.
A car's primary function is to be driven places. But if it sits on Elmer Dogwood's front lawn undriven for 25 years, it is still a car.

Striped of function, essence yet remains.
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  #57  
Old 06-12-2008, 12:02 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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But if it sits on Elmer Dogwood's front lawn undriven for 25 years, it is still a car.
And I know someone who has done that and called it yard art...is it? Or is it Detroit craft?
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  #58  
Old 06-12-2008, 12:08 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

When I saw attack of the killer tomatoes as a kid I never dreamed in a zillion years they could be real either, but lo-and-behold, here they are..

Yup, things do exist whether we percieve them or not and the only limitation is in ourselves and our ability to sense, not in the ability of said art/object to be.
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  #59  
Old 06-12-2008, 12:13 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Here is the core of the difficulty. You are confusing function with essence.
A car's primary function is to be driven places. But if it sits on Elmer Dogwood's front lawn undriven for 25 years, it is still a car.

Striped of function, essence yet remains.
Fine...The "essence" of Art is to be seen. Happy?

I get what you are saying, although it seems pretty arbitrary where function stops and essence kicks in. That car rusting in Elmer's yard is also essentially just raw materials - steel, glass and vinyl. Perhaps it is essentially Elmer's symbolic (and wild - let me tell you) youth. It is essentially an abstraction to the aliens who visit Elmer every month for his "probing" - they don't see anything like it in the natural landscape. Elmer's neighbors (the ones with the small children) see the heap as essentially a legal liability - nothing more.

Fact is - society had a meeting (I know you were invited so don't claim you didn't get the memo) and we voted that "Car" - nine times out of ten - would mean "a mostly metally thing with four wheels that gets you from point A to point B" - now for a mere $300 in gas!. For all those other times people want to claim that "Car" means something about feelings, impressions or essences...well, it was decided to politely ignore them. Those artsy-hippie types just muck things up.
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  #60  
Old 06-12-2008, 02:40 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

I'll let you guys argue whether art can exist in a vacuum- Although I certainly believe it can- and go back to whether a Craftsman only cares about "materials, forms, and techniques an internal process that does not require viewers"

I dont think you could be much farther from the truth.
As a craftsman, I certainly CARE about materials, forms, and techniques- but not for their own meanings- only in how they relate to the finished project.
Much more important to me as a craftsman is how the finished work FUNCTIONS. How it interacts with the world and the people who will use it.
Inherent in Craftsmanship is to do the best job you can, in quantifiable measurable ways, as well as in esthetic realms.
Unlike art, which, no matter what Glenn says, cannot be measured as "good", or "right", there are obvious and mutually agreed upon milestones craft must meet.
A coffee cup must not leak. An earring must fit in your ear. A balcony rail, like the one I installed an hour ago, must meet code, be sturdy, and keep people from falling off the balcony.

These baseline functional aspects of craft must be met, before esthetics and beauty are considered. Whereas, in Art, you only have to worry about the Beauty. Or whatever else you are trying to communicate- I, personally, consider Ugliness to be a perfectly reasonable goal of a work of art. Or discomfort.

But in Craft, the craftsman is concerned with doing the described job, first. A glassblower must blow a wine bottle that actually will hold wine, a violin maker must make an instrument that will stay in tune. Then, a truly great craftsman will add the knowledge and wisdom of a lifetime, and make the violin, or the coffee mug, or the railing, MORE than just functional.

So, in a sense, when doing truly good craft, you must take into consideration all the issues an artist does, and then add an entire additional level of function.

A truly great architect, like, say Gaudi, does everything a sculptor does, only he does it before breakfast, and then he worries about rain, and traffic patterns, and which way the wind blows, and heating and cooling, and stair step heights, and natural light in both winter and summer.

Yep, you artists only have to worry about looks- while a great craftsman (not me, but the real greats) does that, and then a whole lot more.
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  #61  
Old 06-12-2008, 03:32 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

We sculptors are more likely to involve ourselves with the lesser activity of craft because we usually know how to make things right, assemble them correctly, use the right process or method...these are things that materials showed us about themselves on the way up. Some of we individuals who have learned to have our way with materials arrive at art and some dont. Some of us do the art half the time and the craft the other half. Great. And sometimes those two thing don't SEEM like they are all that different. But don't be fooled, get past it...there is a huge difference and a completed undertaking will indeed be ONE or the OTHER. NEVER BOTH. It will require you, the artist/craftsman to know when you're doing what and to not confuse them...or your life will be a lie. I'll admit it, I do plenty that would fall under the craft category...but I cant think of a greater stifler of creativity than function. Function is the enemy of aesthetics. When design is included on a dinner-fork, whether it is ergonomic or fanciful excess, it is not encouraging a relationship with wonder or an encounter with the unexpected, as art must. Beauty schmooty, corinthian columns are ugly to me, and the tedious repetion that is nurtured and supported by an individual only learning the fanciest tricks of his trade...TRADE...is only good for making ordinary things a little less ordinary. A SCULPTOR'S time is better spent innovating, not practicing (and practicing, ho hum) to make the hard things easy...the sculptor is better served by making the hard things HARDER. It is not at all about pushing the limits of a given technique or material, it is about becoming unaware of limitations altogether - and getting foiled by these unawares again and again, and never learning from them. When the Art comes out, so many times you get it just right when you thought all along you were getting it all wrong.
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  #62  
Old 06-12-2008, 03:33 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Hey Ries...you left off the most important word in your quote...integrity! While my version is pretty abbreviated – I am fairly certain we are actually saying the same thing. When I said that the craftsman does not require a viewer - it was meant to underscore that the importance of HOW things are made and function over their ability to project as a symbol or metaphor or in a manner that embraces more academic notions of aesthetics.
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  #63  
Old 06-12-2008, 03:39 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Oh, and niether requires a damn viewer...a BUYER is nice now and then. And none of us will ever make it to the great Art "vaccum"...but maybe our little efforts can help humanity to head down the right path.
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  #64  
Old 06-12-2008, 03:55 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

i am going to the great art vaccum when i am done here
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  #65  
Old 06-12-2008, 04:00 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

level 10 woo who !!!!!!
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  #66  
Old 06-12-2008, 04:04 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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level 10 woo who !!!!!!
Wow! What's it like up there? Do they teach you a special "level 10" hand shake or give you a tie or something?

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  #67  
Old 06-12-2008, 04:07 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

its a secret only one way too find out
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  #68  
Old 06-12-2008, 05:07 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Nope, any audience will do
Dang you Cheesepaws. Now you've got me worried. Any audience, any age,even a cyber space one? Any kind of seeing? Video? Will a 2d copy, a fax or a photo be adequate representation for a 3d work. Will that count as being seen in order to justify my art feelings? I don't know what to think or feel. Am I compromising integrity and essence by not showing a lot of views--birds eye, snail's, all sides, close ups, and when I do submit photos they are always manipulated in Photoshop for sharpness, color saturation, color balance, contrast, crop, etc.and then compressed? Its just so my easier to trust my experience and intuition so I can move on. I'd really like to be assured of the art content before I lay it out for the world, but waiting for others to confirm my hunches is just too much. To make matters worse, most of the time the OTHERS don't see what I see, don't feel what I feel, and disagree among themselves. The saving grace is that they are so gullible and face-to-face quite polite, even if not completely honest.
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  #69  
Old 06-12-2008, 06:42 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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It is not at all about pushing the limits of a given technique or material, it is about becoming unaware of limitations altogether - and getting foiled by these unawares again and again, and never learning from them. When the Art comes out, so many times you get it just right when you thought all along you were getting it all wrong.
Well that's a bit of antithesis for the learned trade or craft now isn't it?

Trying not to try, becoming the art machine itself and not merely some designer of the already known, feeling it flow through you and trusting your intuitions for the haphazard chance of success.. Well, gotta lay some more bathroom tile down and fix that stupid drip.
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  #70  
Old 06-12-2008, 08:23 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Evaldart, you are WAAY too zen and mystical for me.
Maybe its cause I dropped out of art school after one semester and spent the money on a studio, instead- but I just cant grok that far out lingo you speak.

I understand the part about not being intentional- that is, get into the groove of making art, and see where it takes you.

But to me, the craftsmanship has gotta be there first- you gotta know how to weld, and be able to do it hungover in the rain, perfectly, BEFORE you get all wiggly on the mental plane like you describe.

Otherwise, it aint art- its scrap.
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  #71  
Old 06-12-2008, 08:37 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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you gotta know how to weld, and be able to do it hungover in the rain, perfectly, BEFORE you get all wiggly on the mental plane like you describe.
can I skip the hungover part? that was no where on the certification rules.
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  #72  
Old 06-12-2008, 10:03 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Evaldart, you are WAAY too zen and mystical for me.
Maybe its cause I dropped out of art school after one semester and spent the money on a studio, instead- but I just cant grok that far out lingo you speak.

I understand the part about not being intentional- that is, get into the groove of making art, and see where it takes you.

But to me, the craftsmanship has gotta be there first- you gotta know how to weld, and be able to do it hungover in the rain, perfectly, BEFORE you get all wiggly on the mental plane like you describe.

Otherwise, it aint art- its scrap.
Hung-over in the rain, with the electrode holder duct-taped to a broomstick while dangling eleven stories up and looking through a brown beer bottle (forgot my helmet again)...those welds passed inspection just fine. just tricks...I've paid as much of those dues as ANYONE. A walk in the park. And art school's a walk in the park too...but your Art better not be.

And the mental plane is just a busybody at the typer...dont trust him...look at the work.

I don't know what Zen means at all. Skipped over that one.
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  #73  
Old 06-12-2008, 11:20 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Well Landseer, now I see how you have formed an opinion about ancient greek coins. You have selected from among the ugliest examples, and

For a reality check, here are five good examples of portraiture on ancient Greek coins
Those were chosen at random too, glad we agree they were pretty pathetic or at least crude and ugly.

I don't know if it's a "reality check" as much as the selection process, the ones I showed as examples are poor, ugly etc
Two from the selection you posted look very nice- the female portrait especially.

As you know, Saint-Gaudens also made many portrait medallions and dies using machines and tools and creating stunning works as a result.

The Morgan dollar, Peace dollar, Indian head cent and Buffalo nickel were always my favorites.
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  #74  
Old 06-13-2008, 09:43 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Dang you Cheesepaws. Now you've got me worried. Any audience, any age,even a cyber space one? Any kind of seeing? Video? Will a 2d copy, a fax or a photo be adequate representation for a 3d work.
Any Audience...any age...any way you want. Experiencing a documented image of an object is not the same as experiencing THE object - but is still an experience that follows through on the primary goal: to make Art with the intention of being viewed.

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Will that count as being seen in order to justify my art feelings?
Having a crush on someone who doesn't know you exists does not mean that one has a relationship with that person. Likewise, toiling on an object with "artsy feelings" and without the intention of every showing anyone what one is working on - is simply masturbation, not art. (ouch!...I can feel the pain from saying that already..)

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To make matters worse, most of the time the OTHERS don't see what I see, don't feel what I feel, and disagree among themselves. The saving grace is that they are so gullible and face-to-face quite polite, even if not completely honest.
What the artist feels is largely immaterial. Once the work is beheld it no longer needs the artist. On can attempt to steer one's viewers to a point of shared perspective (either gently through deft skill, materials, subject or viewing context or forcibly through artist statements and the like). If the viewers ascribe a meaning or value to the work that the artist did not intend - then so be it. That ever shifting meaning - the one that is layered on by society - is what remains important NOT what the artist intended, felt, feels or says. In my opinion.
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  #75  
Old 06-13-2008, 09:49 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Function is the enemy of aesthetics. When design is included on a dinner-fork, whether it is ergonomic or fanciful excess, it is not encouraging a relationship with wonder or an encounter with the unexpected, as art must.
So art cannot be an embrace of the mundane or a repetition of the obvious or familiar? If not...why?

I employ/express those notions in my work all the time.
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