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  #26  
Old 06-10-2008, 06:59 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

thanks glenn after reading your post i looked up ancient greek coins. and was very surprised to learn that you can buy one. and i even see a couple for around 6 or 7 hundred dollars wow . to think you can own and hold one in you hand that is thousands of years old i would have never thought. and i am thinking there would not have been any kind of reducing methods in those times? pretty impressive
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  #27  
Old 06-10-2008, 07:32 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

could these coins be craft turned art? i wounder did the greeks consider these art or craft? or did they even think of there being art and craft in a sense like being discussed here?
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  #28  
Old 06-10-2008, 09:11 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

I think they loved excellence, were excited about life and depicting it through their art, and their art of living included infusing their daily life and world with art, be it architectural details, coinage, vases, funerary monuments, or their SUV chariots.
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  #29  
Old 06-11-2008, 12:38 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

[color=Black]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
beaulyons:

Would you consider these representations of animals to be "art"?
Yes, the obverse of the Larissa didrachm coin is the trotting horse - easy to recognize as a horse.

PS chris 71, there's LOTS of these Greek coins on Ebay, from 99 cents up- pages and pages of them, they are as a whole almost as common as telephone poles.
Those old coins to me are not very well done, but it might be due to the technology, they all seem to have a child-like playdoh look to many of the profile portraits of people.
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  #30  
Old 06-11-2008, 12:44 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

My take on what is craft v/s art

I consider crafts to be something an amateur dabbles in as a weekend or occasional HOBBY, example: a 75 year old lady takes a class in basket making to occupy the day, that to me is a hobby CRAFT.

Someone who is working on something like a commission for a client, gallery and is investing time/money in more formal education such as a degree or apprenticeship, who is striving to earn a living is making art.
Fine diving line but important.
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  #31  
Old 06-11-2008, 08:54 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Originally Posted by Landseer View Post

Those old coins to me are not very well done, but it might be due to the technology, they all seem to have a child-like playdoh look to many of the profile portraits of people.
I don't know what coins you are looking at, but I would like to see you use today's technological advances and do a better job of carving this image in reverse into a metal die the size of a half dollar, and still add a higher degree of artistic excellence than what was accomplished here.
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  #32  
Old 06-11-2008, 12:45 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Landseer

So would you consider Leah Fairbanks beads art?

http://www.leahfairbanks.com/imagesg...hFairbanks.jpg

What about Mary Hu's Jewelry?

http://www.flintridgefoundation.org/...eehu_pic2.html

These are my top two favorite Artisans, and while I think they both have artistic content in their work, they are mostly noted for their advances in their respective crafts.

On the other hand what do you think about the work of Adolf Wolfli.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_W%C3%B6lfli
He never went to art school, was actualy self taught in a psychiatric hospital His work eventualy became famous but he never made a living at it
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  #33  
Old 06-12-2008, 12:02 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
I don't know what coins you are looking at,
Here are some examples attached, (other than the standing owl which is atypical and almost doesn't seem to fit the rest)

I did not say there are NO good Greek coins and I was speaking of the head PORTRAITS, the horses and the owl are good.

Last edited by Landseer : 05-15-2010 at 07:56 PM.
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  #34  
Old 06-12-2008, 12:10 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Quote:
Originally Posted by natural View Post
Landseer

So would you consider Leah Fairbanks beads art?

http://www.leahfairbanks.com/imagesg...hFairbanks.jpg
Art, very nice!

Quote:
What about Mary Hu's Jewelry?

http://www.flintridgefoundation.org/...eehu_pic2.html
Not sure what to make of it...


Quote:
On the other hand what do you think about the work of Adolf Wolfli.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_W%C3%B6lfli
He never went to art school, was actualy self taught in a psychiatric hospital His work eventualy became famous but he never made a living at it
It is interesting that his background is;

He was physically and sexually as a child, and was orphaned at the age of 10; He thereafter grew up in a series of state-run foster homes. He worked as a farm labourer and briefly joined the army, but was later convicted of attempted child molestation, for which he served prison time. Sometime after being freed, he was arrested for a similar offence and was admitted in 1895 to the Waldau Clinic in Berne, Switzerland, a psychiatric hospital where he spent the rest of his adult life. He was very disturbed and sometimes violent on admission, leading to him being kept in isolation for his early time at hospital. He suffered from psychosis, which led to intense hallucinations.
===

His example works on that page are interesting, detailed, geometric and colorful, I like them!
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  #35  
Old 06-12-2008, 08:01 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

I think Mary Hu's work has sculptural potential, but remains on the side of decorative= craft... in this piece at least. Fun stuff though.
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  #36  
Old 06-12-2008, 08:08 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Well Landseer, now I see how you have formed an opinion about ancient greek coins. You have selected from among the ugliest examples, and aside from the Athenian tetradrachm, none that come to mind as representative to a collector of such. You have shown a portrait from the Bosphorus during Roman times, when the artistry degenerated to cartoon-like, what looks to be an obol from Samaria in the middle east, which often tried to imitate Greek issues but in a very peculiar and akward style, and a prutah from Judea during Roman times, and they were typically not good artists on their coinage, aside from never depicting a portrait of anyone, ever.

For a reality check, here are five good examples of portraiture on ancient Greek coins from among many I could show that illustrate an incredible mastery of the art, especially when considering that these are about the size of a US quarter and were carved in first in reverse into hard metal dies in an era lacking electricity, carbide burrs, etc.
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  #37  
Old 06-12-2008, 08:43 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Perhaps the difference is in the viewer. The Craftsman is primarily concerned with the integrity of his materials, forms, and techniques an internal process that does not require viewers. The Artist is primarily concerned with how his materials, subject and techniques are interpreted an external struggle requiring viewers.

Obviously there are many Artists who employ fine craftsmanship and well as Craftsmen who are aware of a viewership and engage fine artistry.
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  #38  
Old 06-12-2008, 08:56 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Quote:
The Artist is primarily concerned with how his materials, subject and techniques are interpreted an external struggle requiring viewers.
Not for me. I ask people how they "read" my pieces, but it's just a momentary reality check/ idle curiosity. Communication is great, but I have other means to communicate that aren't as cryptic as my "art". If anything, I enjoy my own and other's art because it doesn't have the constraints/ demands of standard communication and its social rules. To demand that a piece of art communicate to everyone is pretty limiting, as can be witnessed by many public works.
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  #39  
Old 06-12-2008, 09:15 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Not for me. I ask people how they "read" my pieces, but it's just a momentary reality check/ idle curiosity. Communication is great, but I have other means to communicate that aren't as cryptic as my "art". If anything, I enjoy my own and other's art because it doesn't have the constraints/ demands of standard communication and its social rules. To demand that a piece of art communicate to everyone is pretty limiting, as can be witnessed by many public works.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Let me attempt to clarify. As an Artist, you DO make work that is intended to be viewed - regardless of what or to whom it communicates. To be Art it must be witnessed/experienced by someone other than the creator.

Craft does not have the same criteria. In fact, a good craftsman might intentionally hide his technique from a viewer.
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  #40  
Old 06-12-2008, 09:36 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Quote:
be Art it must be witnessed/experienced by someone other than the creator.
I disagree.
I understand that you're saying that craft can be a behind the scenes thing, butI would not go so far as to relegate art to only existing if viewed or for viewing.
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  #41  
Old 06-12-2008, 09:43 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

With respect, I have no idea how that would work.
Perhaps you could elaborate.
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  #42  
Old 06-12-2008, 09:52 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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With respect, I have no idea how that would work.
Perhaps you could elaborate
If a tree fell in the forest and no one witnessed it, is it still a tree? If an art work is hidden in the studio corner and no one has seen it is it not art??? Does it require an audience beyond the creator?? Think of poor Van Gogh.
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  #43  
Old 06-12-2008, 09:58 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

What Joe said...
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  #44  
Old 06-12-2008, 10:05 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Or, if I put cheese under my sleeping dog's paws. Is he going to question if its really cheese because he didn't see ME or anyone else put it there? Spontaneous consumption.
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  #45  
Old 06-12-2008, 10:09 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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If an art work is hidden in the studio corner and no one has seen it is it not art??? Does it require an audience beyond the creator?? Think of poor Van Gogh.
That hidden studio treasure is nothing but an object until beheld.

If I found a lost Van Gogh but only agreed to display it in a blacked out gallery - would you call it art?

A Van Gogh IS a "Van Gogh" because of what WE (any/all viewers) see in the work - not simply because he made it.
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  #46  
Old 06-12-2008, 10:15 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

is it not art the moment it is pulled from space and manipulated into being with or without idea or intent
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  #47  
Old 06-12-2008, 10:16 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

That means that an artist never knows he has created art until someone, somewhere, some time finally says, "yeah, ain't bad, I think its art.... But then I am your mother". The artist is the one working in the dark????
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  #48  
Old 06-12-2008, 10:21 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Sounds like we have a chicken and egg situation developing here.

Let me weigh in, 'cause I'm not too chicken to go after these egghead theories...

If I create a work of art that only I see, it is still a work of art. I hope my aesthetic sense and opinion count for something in this equation. It may be an "undiscovered" work of art until others view it, but aside from having it "validated" by someone else, absolutely nothing has changed in the material object in question. If person B says, " That is art", they are acknowleging something that has already been in existence as art prior to person B appearing on the scene. It was not a non-art object before their comment.

On the other hand, if jOe says that it is art, one still may not be certain and a third opinion would be useful!
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  #49  
Old 06-12-2008, 10:29 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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On the other hand, if jOe says that it is art, one still may not be certain and a third opinion would be useful!
Like yours??? Or is it because I'm ahead of the times and that it will require hindsight and future "experts and scholars" to corroborate that I was right. Of course this brings up the notion of whose opinion is qualified to validate "art" and settle any disagreements( because it might really be craft we're looking at) . A teacher could claim that unless the assignment was turned in it doesn't exist...but thats my only concession.
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  #50  
Old 06-12-2008, 10:35 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Of course this brings up the notion of whose opinion is qualified to validate "art" and settle any disagreements.
In the interest of fair play, peace, love, and harmony and all of that, I humbly offer my unbiased self as the ultimate arbiter of opinion.
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