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  #1  
Old 03-21-2008, 12:14 PM
cooljamesx1 cooljamesx1 is offline
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internet; no longer the last frontier

Im tired of rules. necessary they may seem, they are annoying. and society just keeps em coming.

maybe I'm a dreamer, but I thought that this forum could be one place of freedom. where people could be honest and anonymous if they wanted. there aren't too many actual rules past the spam ones and such at the discretion of the moderators, but I'm starting to feel like its starting to get all ruled-up informally, especially evidenced in the recent oscar bashings. It doesn't matter so much that he sais stupid stuff, it seems amazing that we can't stand someone not fitting in. I wonder how many views we deprive ourselves of because people reading the forum dont feel like they belong here.

well I wont propose any rules against rules, so rule it up how you like, forum goers...

thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 03-21-2008, 01:13 PM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

Dont worry bout it CJ, rules in general are just all the small print that nobody really pays attention-to anyway. Do whatever you want. Of course now and again the rules will bite you in the ass... just gotta have a tough ass, thats all.
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  #3  
Old 03-21-2008, 01:19 PM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

I have never proposed "rules".

I have just said I have no respect for somebody who wont put their money where their mouth is, and show work.

I dont really care if people use goofy fake names- I think its silly, but I dont care.

I have no power to kick anybody off, to force anybody to do anything, or to make any rules, nor do I want such power.

And as for "fitting in"- well if thats why you think people are tired of Oscar, I think you should reread his history of posts.


I like all kinds of artists, and have been an ardent defender of a lot of wierdos, losers, and millionaires, artists who make work from food, or junk, light or ice or other nontraditional materials, most of whom dont "fit in".
There is a very wide range of kinds of artists here, all styles, ages, skill levels, and nationalities. I like that about this site.

There is a basic community that forms on a website- people get to know each other, respect each other, and carry on real conversations that are of value. As well as shoot the poo.

And on any website, loudmouthed jackasses wander by from time to time.

Calling em on their sh&t is not making "rules".
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  #4  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:22 PM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

One thing that seperates most of us from Oscar is that we all have an identity, new, or established, as professional or amateur artists. We post our work, which is a part of the platform upon which we stand and express or views. We have the "proof of the pudding" that shows the effort we have put into something tangible in an effort to communicate with others through art.

If from time to time some of us lose our heads a little in a discussion,or the manners slip, we still have the art as our basic shared substance. For example, there have been few levels of intensity here as heated as those occurring between anatomist1 and myself. We have quite opposite political views for starters. Still, at the end of the day, I can appreciate the fact that he has a unique artistic vision that he combines with a talented hand using a difficult, patient method of construction. So, presumeably, if I were to meet him at his studio and he did not shoot me first, we could talk about art, he could show me the things that inspire him, talk shop, I could admire his work in person, and we could get along famously as long as we did not discuss politics. Hopefully the same would occur at my studio if I did not cleave him asunder with my broadsword first. We have a shared level of common ground in our dedication to our work. Same holds for Landseer and others.

With Oscar, you have an individual who lacks good manners, puts it all out there verbally, but has nothing backing it up to give him credibility as an artist. We don't even have a log cabin made of popsicle sticks or a decent paper airplane to look at that says this guy can create with his hands an idea in his head. There is no risk involved in his being a jackass, because he could be anyone and no-one. There is no public persona that takes accountability for his words. I think that is what Ries was referring to as being a coward.

The "rules", if such exist here, are subtle, not oppressive. There are other non-professional forums for the anonymous crowd. Here, we hang on the basic premise that we are serious about our art, whatever it may be, and we want to communicate, share, and learn from others who are dedicated to the path of art.
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  #5  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:26 PM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

Very well put Glenn...for once I have nothing to add.
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  #6  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:41 PM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

Quote:
Originally Posted by cooljamesx1 View Post
Im tired of rules. necessary they may seem, they are annoying. and society just keeps em coming.
thoughts?
have you been talking with my daughter CJ ?

I'm not big on more restrictions either,
let oscar have his occasional blurt, they're entertaining,
but I've been on forums that have a dozen oscars
and have watched as they inevitably self destruct,
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  #7  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:59 PM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

what i think about oscar is. and i could be wrong but i'am gonna just say what i think anyways. as he has told us many times about his mental illnness.i think i know where he is he's in what i call a real hate phase.just mad at everything so mad about all the things that didn't go right in his life. maybe ran out of people to piss off and argue with. so he sits alone on his computor looking for someone to vent on . he most likely does do sculpture maybe good stuff who knows. but now in his on madness and jeloiousey he's made it hard to show his work because he thinks everybody hates him. and he has said a lot of insulting stuff . you'll never get anywhere oscar if your just gonna sit there pissed off at the world. you gotta get past the hate phase.now iam sure oscar will pounce on me for saying this and maybe iam wrong. but there i said it and iam not hideing behind my computor you can even take a look at my picture if you like chris.
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  #8  
Old 03-21-2008, 04:48 PM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

come on oscar i would really like to see your stuff
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  #9  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:34 PM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

cooljamesx1 "Im tired of rules. necessary they may seem, they are annoying. and society just keeps em coming.

maybe I'm a dreamer, but I thought that this forum could be one place of freedom. where people could be honest and anonymous if they wanted. there aren't too many actual rules past the spam ones and such at the discretion of the moderators, but I'm starting to feel like its starting to get all ruled-up informally, especially evidenced in the recent oscar bashings. It doesn't matter so much that he sais stupid stuff, it seems amazing that we can't stand someone not fitting in. I wonder how many views we deprive ourselves of because people reading the forum dont feel like they belong here."

How do I answer this? No society can exist without rules. Even brothers Cain and Abel, in the biblical parable, couldn't get along, and one got so violent as to kill the other. That's one difference with the Internet - people aren't in direct contact, so insanity isn't as destructive that way. On the other hand, my local newspaper has a story roughly every other week about some pedophile luring young girls or boys to a cafe in town or, usually, in another state, and the local police or FBI "ruled" that they couldn't have the freedom they wanted, and they may spend decades or life in prison, or face death.

Sure, we are all adults here, with a few very talented and ambitious teens or possibly younger, but even mature adults have to recognize a form of self control or self governance, or society in some form - Moderators, the citizenry at large, or some other agent, will intrude..
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  #10  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:38 PM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_bvT-DGcWw
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  #11  
Old 03-22-2008, 12:03 AM
cooljamesx1 cooljamesx1 is offline
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

Quote:
Originally Posted by fritchie View Post
How do I answer this? No society can exist without rules.
well thats the tragedy isn't it.

Rules, in parenting and personally and society, are tools for security. In parenting, the rules your parents set for your protection become oppressive as you feel you have outgrown them. And you actually have outgrown at lest some of them. same deal in politics and personally.

I've just been feeling like I cant get away from rules anymore. I've been considering where to live next year in ft Collins and good god there are more rules about having a house there than you can count.

and rules go deeper than legislation, the oppression is ingrained into all of us. in any community, we demand conformity and then convince ourselves thats not what were doing because the outsiders are cowards.

I am aware of oscar's history of posts, and I'm not defending him, I was just amazed at the wealth of reasons people can give to prove that they are not guilty of being exclusive in oscars case. If you piss people off they will dish the shit out on you. thats the way it has to be and thats all well and good.

But I want you all to be fully aware of what you are doing here. You are demanding conformity from oscar. Maybe he wants you too, and perhaps you will continue to do so for the good of the community, but deceiving yourselves with notions of honor and credibility and morality is dangerous. We get pissed at oscar because hes annoying. Not because he has no identity or because hes a coward. we don't give two shits about cowards till they step out of line. If you can convince yourself that oscar is a coward or is morally wrong, then you can be convinced that we should paint over Michelangelo's dicks because the lord hates nudity (not an attack on religion in general). If you want to get rid of oscar by ridiculing him out of here because hes annoying then so be it. thats ok. but it scares me to see all the justifications for how oscar is morally inferior and deserves it.
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  #12  
Old 03-22-2008, 12:07 AM
cooljamesx1 cooljamesx1 is offline
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
With Oscar, you have an individual who lacks good manners, puts it all out there verbally, but has nothing backing it up to give him credibility as an artist.
would you be asking to see some credibility if he always agreed with you? I feel like your demand for credibility demonstrates your attempt to explain and justify how annoying you find oscar. maybe I'm wrong thats for you to decide for yourself.
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  #13  
Old 03-22-2008, 12:21 AM
cooljamesx1 cooljamesx1 is offline
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

I saw they closed manics "first chance" thread. how about that. rules. just a curiosity: how much interesting, even if off topic, discussion did we just loose as the result of rules?

what does off topic mean anyways? I thought the discussion of commissions there was pretty on topic, and I moved this issue to this thread.


did they ask manic if they wanted the tread closed?
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  #14  
Old 03-22-2008, 12:33 AM
cooljamesx1 cooljamesx1 is offline
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

excellent vid steven

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45qztBV4PRc
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  #15  
Old 03-22-2008, 03:25 AM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

Quote:
Originally Posted by cooljamesx1 View Post
I saw they closed manics "first chance" thread. how about that. rules. just a curiosity: how much interesting, even if off topic, discussion did we just loose as the result of rules?

what does off topic mean anyways? I thought the discussion of commissions there was pretty on topic, and I moved this issue to this thread.


did they ask manic if they wanted the tread closed?
Since I closed the thread, I'll answer your questions:

I readily acknowledged that there exists some interesting side-discussion in that thread-- That had absolutely nothing to do with why I closed the thread. I encourage you re-read the tail end of the thread and why it was subsequently closed-- Specifically, when one member consistently decides to antagonistically and disruptively siphon attention away from others whom participate in good faith, there is no need for others to have to endure it, nor a need for any of the moderators to have to waste our completely volunteered time addressing it.
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  #16  
Old 03-22-2008, 07:05 AM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

CJ, ever been to a fun gathering and had one , totally drunk, rude, loud , obnoxious individual show up?
They stagger around making insults, they come up and breathe all over your girlfriend and try to fondle her?
They say things others may think but would never speak and what they say, may scar somebody for life?
Then they take a leak in your Mom's potted rosebush. I could could go on and on with a description of someone that justs spoils a good time and makes everyone uncomfortable.
The point is... who's gonna ask this person to leave or euthinize the bastard?
I went to a meeting of artisans a few weeks ago and an individual did make her appearance so obnoxious that EVERYONE there was EXTREMELY uncomfortable and a bit mad. Not one person knew how to handle her. (Drunk as a skunk) Not one person would step forward and ask her to leave so that something could be accomplished at the meeting that night. We all met because of deadlines and goals we had set for an upcoming studio tour we'd planned. No one was assigned as " Moderator" So....finally..... I asked the woman if she wanted to see some work I had in my car and removed her from the meeting. This gave her time to pee and have a ciggarette too. A few others trickled over to where I was trying to distract the drunk and SOMETHING albeit not much, was accomplished at the meeting. All the artists at the meeting took time out from their lives, families etc. to be at this meeting. To visit with like minded individuals, to hopefuly further there success as an artist and to just have a good/time/chat. One bad apple CAN spoil the whole bunch. This person decided not to join our group , by the way. And I heard she's back on the wagon. Her art is terriffic I might add and everyone adores her when she is sober. See how things COULD work if everyone stays somewhat civil and sober? All I'm trying to say is , some people here have had all they want of obnoxious people in their lives, and they don't need one here where they want to chat and share their success, failure or ideas. (I now step down off the soap box)
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  #17  
Old 03-22-2008, 08:17 AM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

You ever been to one of those art meetings where the beers are flowing, the conversation is excessively jubilant and enthusiastic, people have let their guard and hair down, and induced euphorias abound? Then that sober person shows up, self-important in their clarity, ornamenting thier blather with multi-sylabbic toungue twisters, boasting of steps taken and expanses of time since thier last drink.
Well it fell upon me to remove this person in the interest of maintaining the momentum of a celebratory and unsoured collective anebriation. I feigned an interest in reform and recovery, prompting a discussion about local programs and meetings - that I steered out the door. I made it back to the reveling discussion, where BIG plans were being made, the beer had not yet run out - and the evening was saved.

Last edited by evaldart : 03-22-2008 at 06:45 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-22-2008, 08:50 AM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

Hahaha!

I can relate to TI's experience... Somewhere back in the early 90's I was schnokered stumbling home and my neighbor was having a party. I felt my second wind come up and went into my house and pulled out 2 of my finest bottles of Pinot Noir from the Willamette Valley (I was a classy drinker) and decided to join in on the festivities. After all, it was just my neighbor and she was hot and it sounded like they were all having a blast! So with an open bottle in one hand and 2 of my nicest lead crystal wine glasses in the other I knocked on the door and they let me in. I was euphoric! There were all sorts of lovely young ladies walking around, mostly my age and well dressed gentlemen smiling and chatting and carrying on and I forget exactly what it was I blurted out, "happy new year" or something stupid like that and I asked if anyone wanted a glass of my finest wine. I was plastered and they were all laughing at me and in my cloudy, happy, euphoric state it began to dawn on me that I was the only person with a drink in his hand. I said to them, what the heck kind of party is this, none of you have any beers or anything? And my neighbor looked at me and smiled and said "no, we're having a bible study, care to join us"?
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:05 AM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

Those last two posts were very funny. evadart, if you were disagreeing with TI in clever fashion, still the mindset was the same, just roles reversed.

I think what we are asking here is not that the drunk leave the party. Rather, we are asking if an 8 year old should be drinking to begin with.
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  #20  
Old 03-22-2008, 09:31 AM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

The eight year old typically would have a glass of sparkling grape juice so that he/she may participate and understand the reason for the gathering without the fuzzy around the edges part.
Sometimes the eight year old is obnoxious and insists on putting on puppet shows for everyone. The eight year old grew up to be a part of the Henson gang and was also big on Broadway. It takes all kinds of people...
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Old 03-22-2008, 10:34 AM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

uh.... isn't the question of this thread a non-issue? I no grok... the only rule of limitation that I see here is the 80K limit on pic size. I have bumped into oscars postings just enough to move onto something else, never read more than two, this is a big place, move to some other thread.

The topics we cover and diversions we take are variedk, wide ranging and most stimulating. I can't think of any rules that take away or add to the value of this site, well done moderators, thanks, emensely keep up the good volenteer work!
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  #22  
Old 03-22-2008, 01:18 PM
cooljamesx1 cooljamesx1 is offline
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

Quote:
Originally Posted by obseq View Post
Since I closed the thread, I'll answer your questions:

I readily acknowledged that there exists some interesting side-discussion in that thread-- That had absolutely nothing to do with why I closed the thread. I encourage you re-read the tail end of the thread and why it was subsequently closed-- Specifically, when one member consistently decides to antagonistically and disruptively siphon attention away from others whom participate in good faith, there is no need for others to have to endure it, nor a need for any of the moderators to have to waste our completely volunteered time addressing it.
hey obseq/ all moderators, I'm sorry If I came off a little pissed at you in that post. It was late, and I really do think that you moderators are doing a good job and I thank you for your service. And I agree with allen ring "rules", so to speak, are not much of an issue here.

but in this community as in any, we are exclusive somehow, even if it is against the obnoxious drunk. But I suppose we should take responsibility of our annoyance with and attempts to exclude oscar without convincing ourselves that he deserves it, being inferior to us. maybe this is not possible...

Funny stories, especially steven. I know how that feels, probably not that well though!
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  #23  
Old 03-22-2008, 04:34 PM
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

CJ, I think you have not thought of your request enough. A world without rules would be an absolute nightmare.

Civilization is nothing more than a large set of mostly mutually agreed upon rules. These rules have taken us tens of thousands of years to set up and accept, and are constantly in motion. We revise them, update them, throw them out and change them, but we create more and more rules. When rules collide we have wars, and people kill each other over nothing.

The internet is for the time being a mostly rules-less world, but that will soon end. Most network equipment manufacturers have been busily working on equipment and protocols (The thousands and thousands of rules that allow this forum to run) that will allow identifying e-mails, and most messages so that "Anonymity" can be tamed, and people held responsible for their crimes. Yup, your e-mail will be traceable to its source, or near source, and so will your IM. Your telephones have been traceable for a long long time.

Now, this will all be irrelevant to most people. That is to say, to those people working within the agreed upon rules. The ones that will see the blunt force of the new technology will be all of the criminals lurking in the anonymity of the internet.

Even in this post I think we have lots and lots of rules. They may not be written but every one here has expectations on how a discussion/conversation is to be conducted. We are here to exchange ideas in a rational way. We are here to exchange knowledge and opinions.

If there are enough lapses in the expected rules then people will just stop participating. That is the consequence of allowing the rules to be broken too often.

My 2 c.

Ari.
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  #24  
Old 03-22-2008, 04:44 PM
cooljamesx1 cooljamesx1 is offline
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

ari, I am fully aware of the necessity of rules, but there is a balance between regulations and freedom that needs to be achieved, and for each person it is different. do you feel the amount of regulation, written and unwritten, in your life relative to your freedoms is at its ideal level?
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  #25  
Old 03-22-2008, 04:46 PM
cooljamesx1 cooljamesx1 is offline
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Re: internet; no longer the last frontier

where is the lawless frontier of today?
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