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  #51  
Old 09-28-2007, 12:24 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tlouis
If McCarthy is interested in exploring the many facets of human degredation, I wonder why he didn't show the goat humping the boy.
That's the big "if", IF his intent was showing that facet, but he didn't which means either that wasn't his intent or he felt he got the concept across with the way the figures are positioned as they are.

He could always do a second sculpture posed that way, though unlikely to "copy" his own work just to modify positions.
  #52  
Old 09-28-2007, 12:56 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landseer
This is not bestiality "propaganda" GlennT made claims and statements on the subject of the sculpture and the sculpture itself, such as;

I posted the facts and references, as well as responded each time, that is what a discussion forum is for, the rest all fell in place as it evolved- global warming, society and all the rest.

The sculpture happens to be ABOUT bestiality as it's main theme and it's use in art, both are a personal interest of mine, which is why the post is here in "Sculpture focus." This is not stating my "beliefs" or religion- in fact those had not been mentioned here and all was going nicely and politely, until your post.
The sewage of pro-beastiality propoganda that the readers of this thread have had to wade through goes far beyond your expressing an opinion or countering an argument. In fact, the quote from me that you claim was the the motivating factor in your responses came after one such post of yours.

If I wish to make a point about religion or spirituality, I express MY thoughts on the matter. I don't start flooding the forum with links to every religious organization out there that supports my point of view. While I do not hold back from expressing my perspective, neither do I prostiletize.

I would be quite suprised to find one other member of this forum who engages in beastiality, yet you seem to want to Ram it down our throats as if it is an acceptable and normal thing...." here are the polls and statistics and the links and the proof blah blah blah."

Of course you have the freedom to believe what you will, to have an opinion, and to share it. That you came on so strongly with the flood of material, not just easily found to buttress a point, but carefully collected over time from an obvious intense interest, comes across like an evangelist for a cause.

I believe that has much to do with Tamara's restrained, short, and to the point response.
  #53  
Old 09-28-2007, 01:11 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

[IMG][/IMG] This is the hat I'd tip to Tamara. This is a beast I got too close to. This is a thread that needs to lighten up.
  #54  
Old 09-28-2007, 01:17 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~
This is a beast I got too close to....
What's that supposed to mean? Bwahahaha...
  #55  
Old 09-28-2007, 02:47 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

"pro-bestiality propaganda"?

I just reread landseers posts, and did not see one where he recommended, endorsed, or otherwise placed himself in any way IN FAVOR OF BEASTIALITY.

He did not advocate it, or suggest he participated in it himself.

And this sculpture is NOT BEASTIALITY- it is a depiction of it.
A painting of a battle is not war.
A sculpture of Jeff Koons having sex with Ciccolina is not sex.
A movie by Dali of an eyeball being cut open is not torture.

There is a difference between actually comitting an act of violence, sex, or cruelty, and depicting it in artwork.

Artists are still free, the last time I checked, to use any subject matter they choose.

It is perfectly alright for anybody to dislike this piece- frankly, I dont think its very good myself. I have always found McCarthy's work to be pretty crudely executed, heavyhanded, and going for obvious cheap shots.

But I will defend to my dying breath his right to make this work, and the right of museums to exhibit it.

And frankly, I dont think it has any negative effect on kids. Real violence, real drug and alcohol abuse, real broken homes and crime and poverty are much worse for kids, much more common, and seldom objected to.

My kids have seen work like this since they were small, and have yet to have sex with a single animal. They were kind of amused by the famous ad Linda Benglis took out in Artforum in the 70's, in which there was a picture of her, dropping her panties and posing with a huge, double ended dildo. They saw it at the Tate Modern in London, and it prompted my older one to laboriously and seriously explain to the younger one what a dildo was. Great amusement followed, but, so far as I can tell, no permanent damage.
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  #56  
Old 09-28-2007, 03:02 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tlouis
Duck...Sorry I missed reading your post. It's obviously been deleted as I can't find it anywhere.

McCarthy has made a statement through his art, however obscene it might look, fact is I canít think of another way to say what heís saying without being flogged or deleted.
The skinny on this is I believe heís as fed up as I am with the broad range of moral degradation in America.
  #57  
Old 09-28-2007, 03:59 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck
McCarthy has made a statement through his art, however obscene it might look, fact is I canít think of another way to say what heís saying without being flogged or deleted.
The skinny on this is I believe heís as fed up as I am with the broad range of moral degradation in America.
As much as I believe that you are sincere about this, I find it hard to believe that he is too, when he is in fact contributing to it. Were he offering an alternative, rather than just giving it a different spin, or wallowing in it, I would agree with you. How do you see his work as elevating the moral culture of America?

Last edited by GlennT : 09-28-2007 at 05:59 PM.
  #58  
Old 09-28-2007, 05:47 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ries
"pro-bestiality propaganda"?

I just reread landseers posts, and did not see one where he recommended, endorsed, or otherwise placed himself in any way IN FAVOR OF BEASTIALITY.

He did not advocate it, or suggest he participated in it himself.
Ries- Judge for yourself: Landseer's posts from "Beautiful People" thread:

Quote:
Yes, sort of, but I don't see it with other people as the human form is of no interest to me, erotic, artistic or otherwise, I do see/feel it with animal forms, especially horses, dogs, and deer.
Quote:
I can relate to that visual and erotic interest, but translating knee, ankle and feet in human terms into animal terms- the curvacious turn of stifle, the hocks, and paws. Images of the back legs of a deer or course show they are built for extreme speed, and while similar to the muscular heavy legs of a horse or Rottweiler dog, the horse or dog's back legs and hocks are built for power. I can look an either and be attracted to and visually interested in the feminity of the more refined female animal, as well as the heavy, raw rugged power/masculinity of the male animal.

The mare in the photo has great lines, pose and form, muscling in the front leg/shoulder shows strength, yet overall still feminine in appearance.

I don't see nor experience either visual or erotic interest with the human form at all, but it "translates" for me on the animal form.
Motive in my posting this: To stop the propagandizing of bestiality. Religious speech and even the mention of the word God, Jesus, or to quote a simple encouraging scripture have been stifled on this forum by Landseer. Never (to my knowledge) have we (religious members) extensively promoted our religious way of thinking and included links to associations with our views expounded upon. Landseer has pasted long quotes, links to videos and all kinds of info that is promoting what he is passionate about. This forum, in my opinion, should not include extensive religious talk or, conversely, extensive bestiality propaganda. I have seen more info on this disgusting behavior than I'd ever want to see. This forum is for all of us. Let's all of us try to stick to sculpture topics and not go off on a tangent about whatever is our fancy. Fair is FAIR. Thanks.

Thanks for the tip of the hat, Joe.

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  #59  
Old 09-28-2007, 06:47 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

HappySculpting, Tamara. I have to agree with LandSeer that your Post 42 above is out of place in this thread, but I won't go so far as to recommend its removal.

The initial topic of the thread is in fact bestiality (though the only image posted so far isn't clear about that, and in fact I didn't see the implication when I first saw the picture.)

We do have to call everyone on the matters of staying on-topic and staying within reasonable bounds of courtesy.
  #60  
Old 09-28-2007, 08:08 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
In fact, the quote from me that you claim was the the motivating factor in your responses came after one such post of yours.
There were more than a few derogative comments as well as totally incorrect statements that were made, I only included a few of those as examples in my quoted text as to why I felt I needed to expand on those sub-issues, i.e; the wikipedia article, the German study, the survey numbers, DSM-lV etc
We were discussing the sculpture, then you said among other things; "Beastiality [SIC] is a sickness" "Beastiality [SIC] is animal abuse, rape, a violation of trust" etc

I back up my statements with published facts and science not hysteria or opinion, thus I included scientific and other material in counter, you then added more of the above and I added further published material showing the facts.
I would not have felt the need to include all that had I not read those comments I knew to be incorrect.

My posts are still not "propaganda", they include factual information, and as Reis said, in none of my posts do I suggest people try it, enjoy it, like it or teach their kids how to do it. As I've said- I have a personal interest in it, just as you have a personal interest vested in religion. Furthermore, it is a topic I know about, researched, and studied, and when I see erroneous opinions or claims such as were made i.e; abuse, same as pedophilia, rape, can't consent etc , I set the record straight, not with my opinions but largely with proof taken from sources that are not disputable or debatable as opinions can be.

Those sources were pretty long but if I took selected portions of them and posted them, out of context they would have been very hard to follow and very disjointed and some wouldn't make sense if edited down to a few lines.
I have material on this for years, including several studies, dissertation papers, books and articles.

This sculpture AND it's theme greatly appeals to me personally, as does the marble pan and goat from Pompei which I posted about previously, and so on, enough in fact as I said once- I may likely model a Pan and Goat of my own, the only reason I haven't done so yet is the technical issues and saleability- I would probably wind up making the model strictly for my own enjoyment, and doing that right now is a luxury when I need to make models to market.

That's the only reason you do not see photos here of a Pan and Goat model or similar on my work bench being modelled right now, and when those two reasons why it's not being done are dealt with at some date, there will be that model on my bench, you can count on that.

I will make a suggestion as a possible solution, this one for Fritchie and Russ- maybe make a separate folder for RELIGIOUS stuff, and people can post that THERE. You want to post photos of your new crusifix/jesus/holy ghost/mary model, it goes there in the religious sculptures folder- a place where it's labelled as such for that purpose, and then those who don't want to deal with that can skip that folder over entirely instead of stumbling on mini sermonettes in posts at random in all folders.

I also object to Tamara clipping text from very old posts and then effectively- republishing them- without my okay to do so in a whole other thread.
I will SUGGEST, in the future that if you want to refer readers here to my posts from months ago, post the URL of the thread to the messages, don't take bits and pieces of selected text out of context with the whole and selectively include them in your posts HERE. You say you had more than enough of the topic, yet you obviously devoted considerable time to searching through my almost 1500 posts to copy and paste key words in here for an agenda in a thread you admit you don't want to read but are, and that is out of line and way off the topic of this thread.

If your intent of reporting portions of my posts here was to embarass me in some way, that doesn't work on me-like I said; the topic is personally interesting to me and so it's in the "sculpture FOCUS" folder, animals can be erotic to look at and this sculpture fits that "focus."
If you have an issue with someone finding animals erotic, it is your issue, by the same token I am not promoting or encouraging anyone to do anything with an animal, I certainly wouldn't want one to be used as a "sex toy" by idiots, drunks or abusive people looking for a new kinky to try. I would never assist such people in even making connections to even try it.

But I also won't stand by and let erroneous, hateful, or incorrect comments I know are totally untrue go by without countering the errors with published, peer-reviewed facts, scientific facts and medical references.

If this was a gay themed sculpture and someone made erroneous hateful comments to the effect that; all gay artists molest little boys and started AIDS, you can bet those artists would be angry and countering that the same way I am- with facts when that sort of thing comes up.

One last thought, mostly for Glenn and Tamara, there is an "ignore" button some may not be aware of- if you click on "Landseer" and then "profile" you can select the link at the top right in white letters that says "Add Landseer to your ignore list"
when you do that, none of my posts will display to you at all.

Last edited by Landseer : 09-28-2007 at 10:08 PM.
  #61  
Old 09-28-2007, 08:28 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ries

And this sculpture is NOT BEASTIALITY- it is a depiction of it.
A painting of a battle is not war.
A sculpture of Jeff Koons having sex with Ciccolina is not sex.
A movie by Dali of an eyeball being cut open is not torture.

There is a difference between actually comitting an act of violence, sex, or cruelty, and depicting it in artwork.

Artists are still free, the last time I checked, to use any subject matter they choose.

It is perfectly alright for anybody to dislike this piece- frankly, I dont think its very good myself. I have always found McCarthy's work to be pretty crudely executed, heavyhanded, and going for obvious cheap shots.


And frankly, I dont think it has any negative effect on kids. Real violence, real drug and alcohol abuse, real broken homes and crime and poverty are much worse for kids, much more common, and seldom objected to.

My kids have seen work like this since they were small, and have yet to have sex with a single animal.
You know Reis, that is a great post, you really said it all and well. You are right, a painting of a battle scene is not war etc, I like that observation and hadn't thought of it quite that way before.

I am not familiar with McCarthy's other works enough to hold an opinion on his style, technique etc, I did see several and they did seem crude but also going for shock value.
This sculpture is the only one I liked from what I saw on the various gallery pages, and it is crudely done, the figures rather "stiff" and unrealistic, the goat was well done however and does look more realistic, it could even be because it might be built up on a taxidermist's goat skeleton frame and probably tragically uses real fur ( I have not read on that fact either way)
The difference in quality between the people and the goat is considerable, and the two people look like cheap store window props, they may very well have a foundation using those, it certainly would be much easier to use standard commercially available store dummies and work on them than create one totally from scratch.
Again, I don't know which method McCarthy used for those and have not seen any "construction" photos that would tell.

Yes, artists are free to chose any subjects in theory, but in actual practice if one depicted pedophilia in drawings or a painting it would probably be considered "child porn" or simulated child porn and it could present some legal problems.
Of course the other issue is, if an artist depicts something hot buttonish like KKK figures with a noose and a man in a tree, you can bet he/she would get death threats, galleries would be threatened and so on.
I seem to remember that was what happened to the chocolate jesus thing and the huge row about that up to and including death threats

Personally I find store ads of sides of beef and ground round far more disgusting and sickening than bestiality images, yet people seem to have no problem perusing magazines with full color ads showing horribly mutilated DEAD carcases of beef with their ribs, raw fat and veins showing in a supermarket meat cooler.

While there is a theoretical "free-speech" there really isn't, you see the hostile reaction from a couple of colleagues here to just this thread about a sculpture that shows a man, a boy and a goat standing there, whose description from the galleries etc and it's mechanics which we can't see says it's about bestiality, even though nothing is seen- all are fully clothed, and there is no actual penetration or bestiality- the figures are not real people or animal, they are stuffed dummies and clothing. I'd bet their eyes are even made of plastic and they even look a little cross-eyed on the father if you look closer at them LOL.

Last edited by Landseer : 09-28-2007 at 08:49 PM.
  #62  
Old 09-28-2007, 10:14 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Well, with all due respect.. I disagree completely.. Lionel Tate was just imitating wrestling on television (not real, just a depiction etc..) when he killed 6-year-old Tiffany Eunick. Wrestling is fake and you can say it has no negative effects on kids, but its factually absurd and the young girl is just as dead. I mentioned earlier that children cannot process the difference between what is real and what is not real and this is fact. The one natural defense that kids do have is their attention. If you sit a 6-year old in a chair and start reading from a physics book you are not likely to draw much attention and they'll simply lose interest and forget whatever it is you are saying. If you showed this sculpture to a 3 year old, they wouldn't be able to conceptualize the act or action that was taking place and again, they would lose interest. They are in fact protected naturally by their own limited attention span. However; each and every one of us has memories from childhood that may be traumatic in nature and we are creatures that take quickly to ideas and we mimic them starting at a very early age. If you grew up in a household where your parents were continually arguing you will likely grow up to argue more yourself. Without going through a million other examples, suffice it to say that sex, violence, social degradation and respect for one's self and others are all compromised by the continual bombardment of images which depict aberrant behavior. The delivery methods are ubiquitous and It's my personal belief that it's damaging both to children and societies at-large. Much of the "Great Satan" mythos is generated from what people see on American T.V. and what Hollywood puts out and if I lived in a foreign country and saw this T.V. I would tend to think we were the "Great Satan" as well.

I'm not trying to single out this sculpture or the artist at all, but rather a larger social context of negative images and this to me is just another example of millions. There's a vested minority who would like people to suppose that this is perfectly normal to depict a little boy screwing a goat in an American art museum and I am not one of those people. This has zero to do with repression or censorship or telling an artist what they can and can't make, but it has everything to do with decency and good taste. The day "In God We Trust" is replaced by a boy screwing a goat on the dollar bill is the day I take up arms and shout revolution.
  #63  
Old 09-28-2007, 11:09 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW
Well, with all due respect.. I disagree completely.. Lionel Tate was just imitating wrestling on television (not real, just a depiction etc..) when he killed 6-year-old Tiffany Eunick. Wrestling is fake and you can say it has no negative effects on kids,
As an aside on this, I believe firmly that "wrestling moves" excuse was a total fabrication, I believe he murdered the girl, it certainly was no accident, she had far too many internal injuries, he slam dunked her multiple times.

Here's a few headlines from Google's news today;

Juvenile arrested after threatening students

MIDDLESEX BORO: Teen arrested in bomb threat
The report said the teen was arrested in 2006 on a juvenile charge of domestic violence.

15-year-old arrested in relation to Wednesday stabbing

Two arrested in beating of pizza delivery man in Ambridge
When Officer Mann interviewed the juvenile, he said the teen told him that Mr. Page explained the extra kicks by saying he needed to "relieve stress."

Teens arrested for hanging dead deer from high school tree

Juvenile Arrested After Internet Bomb Threat

Sixth teen arrested in videotaped beating; all six suspects arraigned A sixth and final suspect involved in the mob assault earlier this week has been identified and was arrested yesterday for Mob Assault.

A 16-year-old driver was arrested this afternoon in a crash last month that killed a 10-year-old bicyclist in Eugene.

A juvenile boy faces an aggravated assault charge after a stabbing in Fargo.
======

Where do you suppose they got the violence from? I think this all is a far greater problem and issue, and it's obvious where all that comes from- violence in the home, violence on TV and in video games, war toys etc. On a scale of rankings I'd say bestiality or exposure to it in media or art as causing a problem with these teens would probably be down near 1 or less on a scale of 1-100


Quote:
Without going through a million other examples, suffice it to say that sex, violence, social degradation and respect for one's self and others are all compromised by the continual bombardment of images which depict aberrant behavior.
Video games are far more damaging, like that one whose objective is blowing away as many people as you can, "Grand theft auto" it was in the news for the extreme violence. You have kids playing that game, Dungeons and Dragons and others like it for HOURS AND HOURS every day, scoring points blowing away cops, and murdering people by the hundreds, complete with blood and sound FX, this is brainwashing.

You read a whole lot more about kids taking guns to school, solving arguments with knives and guns etc, and they are learning it and being brainwashed by things like "Grand theft auto" and movies on TV whose sole theme is about some mass murderer or deranged psycho chainsaw hacker who stalks women and cuts them up.
What you don't read about is, "10 year old caught with a goat", you are far more likely to see headlines daily such as;

"10 year old arrested for setting 2 cats on fire"

"Two juveniles were arrested today after witnesses saw them stomping and throwing a dog off the bridge"

"Juvenile arrested for throwing a pumpkin sized rock weighing over 70 pounds off the overpass into the windshield of a passing car, killing the 24 year old mother of three instantly"


Quote:
I'm not trying to single out this sculpture or the artist at all, but rather a larger social context of negative images and this to me is just another example of millions.
I would be far more concerned about the violent movies and video games.

Quote:
There's a vested minority who would like people to suppose that this is perfectly normal to depict a little boy screwing a goat in an American art museum
I don't recall ever running into any, the sculpture is not about what is "normal" (whatever that is) or not, it's about controversy and you don't get controversy with a painting of a still-life potted plant, you DO get controvery and publicity with public exhibitions of a jar of urine, humping trees, and so forth.

Last edited by Landseer : 09-28-2007 at 11:24 PM.
  #64  
Old 09-28-2007, 11:23 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

All true and I said this is just one example of millions from ubiquitous outlets, T.V., Video games, Internet... My point being, is there nothing left sacred in society today, not even a museum of fine art? Will the next exhibit be G.I. Joe and Barbi in the Jacuzzi play-set with real farting bubbles?

I see people everywhere in society trying their best to nominalize aberrant behavior and marginalize it, mitigate it and rationalize it all away. "Well it's not as bad as that nasty old Grand Theft Auto", but where does society say enough is enough? That's all I've been asking really..

I've never seen any kids traumatized by a potted plant..
  #65  
Old 09-28-2007, 11:29 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Please address this need to justify something bad by pointing out that, " Its not as bad as.....".

A culture that is in a downward fall keeps lowering the threshold of what is acceptable, and thus yesterday's evil seems less significant than the next day's, as it takes more and more negativity to surpass the numbing cummulative effect and still cause a shock.
  #66  
Old 09-28-2007, 11:38 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW
My point being, is there nothing left sacred in society today, not even a museum of fine art?
Maybe there isn't, used to be fine art museums like the Museum of Natural History NYC, Brooklyn Museum had sculptures and art from antiquity and Victorian eras, I remember the "suggested" admission to the Museum of Natural History and planitarium was ten cents in the 70's, I also remember them struggling for funds amidst dwindling crowds.

So are people getting tired of the same exhibits of Venus de Milo, Michaelangelo's "David," Rembrandt paintings etc?

Now I see the Brooklyn museum has contemporary exhibits, big pieces in a huge space, so I'm guessing that also shock and controversy is the new draw for the dwindling crowds.

Quote:
"Well it's not as bad as that nasty old Grand Theft Auto", but where does society say enough is enough? That's all I've been asking really..
I've never seen any kids traumatized by a potted plant..
I don't know where that line is, but if you go back to 1890, women's legs if seen in a public place were as "obscene" as a bare breast on the bus would be today, I think most here would agree that Victorian era crazyness of considering a woman's ankles in public "obscene" and objectionable is laughable, but at the time it was an offensive issue, women layered themselves in a wedding cake of clothing.

Kids arent traumatized by a potted plant but likely would be bored to tears.
  #67  
Old 09-28-2007, 11:41 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

This is such negative energy but since I got myself into this, I'll respond one more time.

Landseer-
FYI- Took 5 seconds or so to search threads for key words "benefits of bestiality" and "not attracted human form". I remember you saying these words and I hit on the threads first try. I wouldn't waist my energy further than a few moments to search.

Just as I surmised, you were defending bestiality which has nothing to do with sculpture, which is why I spoke up. Stick to sculpture Landseer, please.

Bestiality propaganda doesn't have to be with the intent to encourage others to do it but perhaps to have more dialog on the subject to generate desensitization of it. Additionally, it can be to gain acceptance/approval so that people will think it's a normal "alternative" lifestyle.

I'm disheartened that this world has come to a point that someone isn't even shamed to admit on a worldwide online forum what you have herein.

That's all. I'll block your posts because I don't care to have communication any further. Thanks for the reminder.
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  #68  
Old 09-28-2007, 11:48 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT
Please address this need to justify something bad by pointing out that, " Its not as bad as.....".
There is no "justifying", it is showing the hypocracy as I said earlier, people getting all upset and worked up and screaming ABUSE!!! ABUSE!!! RAPE!! RAPE!! when you add sex to the issue, while happily munching on a hot dog in their other hand.
They don't even change their tune when you show them the facts; the slaughterhouse videos and photos, or published studies done by Universities and psychiatrists.

People don't apply logic and science to many things, they do apply hysteria and emotions and stick by them, even when shown they are wrong "black is still white to them" no matter how many photos, videos or written proof you show them. By that point they don't want to admit, or admit to themselves they are wrong.
You see this in racism too, someone will swear a particular race is inferior and will stick by it, even if shown medical proof otherwise, and that's the hypocracy, or as I draw the person's attention to that with

"it's not as bad as..."

Maybe you don't see the hypocracy but it's clear.
  #69  
Old 09-28-2007, 11:51 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappySculpting
That's all. I'll block your posts because I don't care to have communication any further. Thanks for the reminder.
The block button again just to be sure people find it, is under a person's user name on the left, then "view public profile" and then "Add 'user name' to your ignore list" on the upper right.
Thanks
  #70  
Old 09-29-2007, 12:23 AM
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StevenW StevenW is offline
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landseer

Kids arent traumatized by a potted plant but likely would be bored to tears.
Good point and I'm glad you brought this up becuase it is significant to our society as well. I think only boring people get bored by and large and the quick-fix entertainment trend actually promotes this. My nephew gets a new video game every couple weeks for example and this has marginalized and replaced higher learning. I went to school, had chess club and music lessons and practiced after my homework was done.

He goes to school, when he feels like it and if it's not too boring for him and then smokes a joint with his buddies and plays Grand Theft Auto until 2:00 am.

This is more and more the norm for kids his age and not the exception and I don't blame his mom for not keeping the computer in the livingroom, I blame society and what it pushes on kids as "normal" and perfectly fine.
I see nothing boring about a potted plant myself, a well painted landscape or some simple polished stones. They can all be very inspring to any open mind. It is only the boring and lazy mind that would be brought to tears by these..
  #71  
Old 09-29-2007, 01:25 AM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW
Good point and I'm glad you brought this up becuase it is significant to our society as well. I think only boring people get bored by and large and the quick-fix entertainment trend actually promotes this. My nephew gets a new video game every couple weeks for example and

He goes to school, when he feels like it and if it's not too boring for him and then smokes a joint with his buddies and plays Grand Theft Auto until 2:00 am.

This is more and more the norm for kids his age and not the exception
That's exactly right, the quick fix and wanting more. I don't know if there is an answer for it or a fix, it's like the guy used to earning $30 an hour with full benefits having to take a job for $3.75 an hour and no benefits, I just don't see reversal happening in the way things are today.

In many ways its corporate America at fault, they push ads all over the place telling you that you cant have ANY body odors, your house must be imaculate, you need air fresheners, your laundry has to smell like flowers and you need a new $25,000 machine (car) every 5 years to keep up with the latest styles.
If your car, house, computer, software, outfits etc is a year old, it's already "outdated" and needs to be replaced with the NEWEST styles.

Everything is disposable and unvalued, your new $25,000 car immediately drops in value the moment you drive off the lot, if you don't have a Jenn-Aire in your kitchen you have junk, if your kids don't have $125 Nike sneakers you are a peasant. You have parents literally mobbing stores at Xmas to be the frst to buy the newest gizmo or toy their kid HAS to have, hell- you had near riots and people waiting in line all night to be the first to buy that new $600 iPhone!

With that all in mind and heaped on us, is it any wonder what happens as a result?
If your kids see your car devalued in a day, and last years computer dumped in the trash, is it any wonder they value say a dog's life as much as that throwaway computer?
  #72  
Old 09-29-2007, 03:03 AM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

And the words I was looking for sprang to life; "Valued, devalued, unvalued"..

Was it you last week who applauded the vandalism of the 160 year old marble bust of Jesus?.. Without casting any judgement, I still wonder about its genuineness. I would like to think that any sculptor felt some loss at the destruction of a historical piece and I note that the devaluation of art, people, society, government, those large greedy corporations and even the potted plant is to me unnecessary. I was reading some Marcus Aurelius recently and this came to mind:

What is badness? It is that which thou hast often seen. And on the occasion of everything which happens keep this in mind, that it is that which thou hast often seen. Everywhere up and down thou wilt find the same things, with which the old histories are filled, those of the middle ages and those of our own day; with which cities and houses are filled now. There is nothing new: all things are both familiar and short-lived.

I could argue that the father and goat-poking son are an insurance ticket for future works of fine art in that it fails in the end to be anything new, despite being unfamiliar (except for the 15% you pointed out) and perhaps in the end this was his ultimate intention, but I won't gve him that much credit just yet.

If the devaluation of cars, computers, dogs, art/sculpture, is also "nothing new", then the world begs for value and the constant attack on it, old, present, future, is to me a mistake.
  #73  
Old 09-29-2007, 05:02 AM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

ahh, one of the things I love about this forum,
the moderators allow the threads to run their course.
at the risk of being ostracised
I feel the need to wade into this one.
Tamara, I also doff my hat to you for volunteering your
opinion.
Glenn T I look forward to your (sometimes predictable)always considered
and articulate responses.
evaldart and joe~. always delight in your posts.
as a crass Australian
the question is ..... Landseer,? are you into #@%%$& animals?
the queston I ask myself, will this change my opinion of your sculpture?
the answer, no, my opinion of your sculpture remains the same
  #74  
Old 09-29-2007, 07:27 AM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Reading all of this it might be assumed that the moderators - of which I am one - have been absent. This is not the case.

From a personal viewpoint, I have to say that I am disappointed and fed up with having to wade through the bickering and point scoring that has now become common place. Our freedom here to talk about controversial topics and respond honestly, without fear of bullying, is diminished by this.
__________________
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  #75  
Old 09-29-2007, 10:24 AM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW
I would like to think that any sculptor felt some loss at the destruction of a historical piece and I note that the devaluation of art, people, society, government, those
Steven, there is a loss of a historical item yes, but one which is objectional to me personally because of all the horrific baggage it represents and is directly connected to through history- the brutal murders, torture, jailings, executions, hangings, biggotry, heresy trials and hate going back to the crusades and continuing in lesser forms to today.

This fabricated symbol, icon or idol, like the swatztika represents different things to different people at different times. I consider these icons in the same way as a Jew whose parents were killed in a concentration camp would a swatztika, or a black person considers a kkk costume and noose.

In the years prior to Hitler, the swatztika was considered a good luck symbol, and the Hayden tune "Austria" had a different meaning, both were hijacked and now have negative connotations due to the connection to the nazi party.

I doubt you would find anyone today as a result- defending or feeling a loss or outrage if a circa 1900 wood swatztika was BURNED, however historic the piece may once have been.

If you put up a display of a swatztika or kkk costumes, in many places these are banned, you can't display them on Ebay I know that much, so some symbols ARE banned.

If this 160 year old bust was one of say- Plato, George Washington or Atlas, I would feel a loss and anger of course, because the figure it would represent then is not one that negatively affects me in any way and has no negative baggage connected to it.

Quote:
I could argue that the father and goat-poking son are an insurance ticket for future works of fine art in that it fails in the end to be anything new, despite being unfamiliar (except for the 15% you pointed out) and perhaps in the end this was his ultimate intention, but I won't gve him that much credit just yet.
Of course it fails to be something "new", it represents acts that have occurred world-wide since the beginning, you can even read the trial transcripts and execution details from the 1600's of children like Thomas Granger age 16 whose account is detailed in; Of Plimouth Plantation 1620-1647. There were at least seven more documented between 1642 and 1674.

The only thing different in this work is it's depiction with father-son, obviously middle class in attire which to me breaks the stereotype of the old geezer farmer or desperado type resorting to something one level above a rock in his back yard.
Quote:
If the devaluation of cars, computers, dogs, art/sculpture, is also "nothing new", then the world begs for value and the constant attack on it, old, present, future, is to me a mistake.
Steven, we as a society have been brainwashed by commercial interests to devalue almost everything, that is why historic buildings that took years to build are destroyed on a whim because the owners feel it's "old" "outdated" and they want a sleak modern "contemporary" look. That keeps contractors in business, replacing your car every few years keeps Detroit from going bankrupt.

Corporations rarely buy a historic building and renovate it for their headquarters, they are more likely to tear down that 1850 theater to build a glass and steel box in it's place.
Art is not especially permanent even if we would like to think it is, if it's made of something valuable like copper or bronze it's in danger of being scrapped by someone who doesn't like it's present form.
OTH if it's massive and made of materials not worth anything such as concrete, it's in danger of being taken to the landfill because it woud cost more than it's worth to someone to move it intact.

I don't see this fairly long-term trend reversing, in fact it's going worse since manufacturing jobs and all are going to China and China ships back JUNK but people buy it because it's CHEAP.
I am guessing all of this started soon after WW2, it could even have started with Detroit and almost certainly moved along by TV ads.

TV is societies' baby sitter and drug, it's an excellent brainwashing tool by repeating the same ads over and over and over.
I don't own a TV set, in fact I haven't owned one since 1982 (I hear they have color now) because I got sick of the hour long shows being reduced to about 20 minutes because of the constant interruptions by commercials, the same tiresome crap over and over advertising everything from feminine napkins to pain killers to new cars.

I also got tired of the selection of movies and shows basically being "Oprah," "Ryans Hope" "General Hospital," "Texas chainsaw murders" or "Stalker"

As I said above, I don't see things changing and reversing in this area. Of course the root of all of the problems we h ave today is the sheer number of people we have now, if you look back to 1950 census, there were 150 million citizens in the USA, now it is over 300 million as of 2005
The US population has doubled in just 55 years, and in those 55 years seems to be when the majority of all of these social ills and issues, pollution, lack of land fill, water/electric/oil shortages etc began- the post war baby boom and the post war want to improve one's life and have everything NOW. That's when credit cards began, people stopped saving and taking out huge loans for bigger and bigger houses, new cars, furniture etc, corporations getting rid of older workers to avoid paying them retirements and health benefits etc

You can see how all of these changes appear to have begun in earnest post ww2.

Underfoot; your query to me is disrespectful and like so many tapeworm segments, the query falls on stony ground. I've never in my life inquired about anyone's private activities with their significant others, the thought of asking someone such a personal question never entered my mind, I'm always amazed when I see others do it.

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