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  #26  
Old 04-29-2007, 09:16 PM
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fritchie fritchie is offline
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Evaldart - No need to quote your response just above, and I do appreciate your sense of humor. I was just afraid for a moment you were saying all of existence is a dream in the mind of some mouse eating a cockroach, and I wanted to differ.
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  #27  
Old 04-29-2007, 09:34 PM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Fritchie, it cant at all be a bad thing when guys like you and Allen take discussions about aesthetics, the business of all of us, to a different level. But you're right that proper ventures into this territory might require more time and space than what might be feasible here. I, for one, am always fascinated by the incomprehensible...I like to keep my mind boggled. Solutions, truth and aswers are so final; like little deaths. Pursuit, for me, is active and exciting, a self-fulfilling act.
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  #28  
Old 04-30-2007, 03:47 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

‘I sometimes get concerned with the notion that beauty is somehow separate or above 'ordinary' life & that it is a rarified pure experience of sunsets, angels, hearts & flowers..etc. In reality it is nothing of the kind. Life is beautiful.’ - James

Sorry, James. ‘Life is beautiful’? This is surely rubbish. We aren’t living in the same Darwinian universe if this is true. I see nothing in life that confirms this at all. On the contrary, I feel that beauty is both transcendental, a function of human perception, or it’s a function of procreation in nature, or both. Life, don’t talk to me about life……

‘I believe that science is failing because it overlooks a fifth universal force; the elemental force of beauty.’ – Allenring

Sorry, Allenring. This is mysticism you’re into. Science can explain what beauty IS, but cannot recognise it as an ‘elemental force’ because it is not a physical property in itself.

‘Both math and logic, as thought processes, are as beautiful as sculpture or the effects of any other artform, physical or conceptual.’ – Fritchie

I’d agree with this, although only because I suspect that ALL humanly generated phenomena (art; maths; theories, perceptions, etc) conform to psychological principles that seem ‘right’ to our Neanderthal brains. And maybe that is what much of ‘beauty’ is – the mysterious ‘rightness’ of something.
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  #29  
Old 04-30-2007, 08:35 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Hi, If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!
Have a great day,
Jeff
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  #30  
Old 05-07-2007, 09:27 PM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Can’t let Ironman have the last post on this one. Not bullshit; our personal expressions of the nuances of beauty, wrought with words. And it has to be a beautiful thing because that is our intent, so their! Their is also a touch of ego, perhaps pride in the wordsmiths trade, we are proud of our ability to express in spite of being products of public education.

Gads Cantab, dreary English weather got you down? Miss your queen? We are quite enthralled by her visit. It would seem you need to get in touch with your inner sculptor. You are on to something good and profound here, “the mysterious ‘rightness’ of something” as a definition of beauty. Mystery and beauty are good companions, and jolly good fun.

evaldart I love your thought, “truth and answers are so final; like little deaths”. Careful with thoughts like that, they go better with wine and cheese than they do beer! I envision myself as the quantum particle existing in an infinite state of possibilities. All too often an observer will see me, collapsing my wave form into a defined single state. Very disappointing, words, definitions, and steady states are so limiting.
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  #31  
Old 05-07-2007, 11:28 PM
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Talking Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Allen,

Do you repair and taxiderm poodles? Just curious.
A few years ago I cast a human skull in bronze. Moveable jaw, fine detail due to direct burn out, of course the teeth were a minor problem. The top of the cranium is cut, hinged, it opens with a.........skeleton key

Thing is, some viewers and beholders found the piece exquisitely elegant, a few minorly revolted, but all intrigued. Think back to the Rodin piece, "The Helmet Makers' Wife." Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, we make our own realities. That small breasted chick with nipples you could dial a telephone with, the one with wild dark untamed hair and a 4 inch scar down her left cheek, I might find to be more beautiful than any Sports Illustrated swimsuit model. Another might have no interest.

How suprised were you when you sold your first piece? Ever think anyone would LIKE it? Artwork is not always an expression of beauty, obviously....but some might consider Edvard Munchs "The Scream" a work of beauty. Others might cut off at whats' his faces "David" to be supreme.

Stop THINKING so much and go rock your studio!

frozen I. Mage
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  #32  
Old 05-08-2007, 07:56 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

If the repairs do not go too well then the taxidermy skills come in mighty handy.

Seems we are getting a recurring theme here, stop jibberjabing so much and go cut metal. I'll head out to the studio right now but first I have to figure out....

I'm really worn out from a week of lifting, bending, twisting and pounding. This forum is so nice, BEAUTIFUL, got to stay on thread, to sit and exorcise the mind and fingers only.

OK, your right, I'm out the door to the studio right now!
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  #33  
Old 05-11-2007, 11:31 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Allenring (Re: post 30) - Sorry, I just found the 'life is beautiful' thing too much. If I felt that I wouldn't be able to sculpt anything..... 'Life, don't talk to me about life', a quotation from the Depressed Robot in 'The Hitchhiker's Gude to the Galaxy'. Sort of faux-depression. The Queen? Don't talk to me about the Queen....
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  #34  
Old 05-16-2007, 01:28 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

My background is in science academically, but I am a man of operations and must do as much as ponder and to me art and science and beauty are only separated by trivial nuance.

I was researching (Google, the poor mans library) Moroccan Satin Spar a few weeks ago, primarily to see if there were any harmful elements to be wary of while working on it. I was crestfallen to discover that the vast majority of reading material on the rock was fabricated by modern witch doctors. While I finally did manage to find one specific source of information about its chemical makeup, there were endless pages of candle dripping, incense stinking "energy-ologists" purporting to "tune" and "program" my Moroccan Satin Spar so that my other crystals would have greater "healing" effect et. al.

I was amused for the first few pages and disgusted by the end of my search and to relate briefly; there are people selling $3.00 chunks of rock with core bit drill holes and .50 cent candles in them for upwards of $395.00. This Moroccan Satin Spar costs more due to special "tuning" and "programming" qualities. I even managed to stumble across some "energy wands" (rock dildos) which sold upwards of $100.00. "What the market will bear" my old economics professor used to say, nonsense! I wish Darwin had discovered that poetic justice and natural deselection were natural attractors. Gary Larson certainly saw this theory and The Far Side is one of those art pieces that should be here, but isn't as EvalDart points out. Not only is it our passion to place these missing elements here on Earth, but our duty as far as I can tell...

I used to think art prices were too high and bought into all that crap about what the market will bear, but it has nothing to do with any of that. I'm going to put "organic" stickers on all my rock and triple the price just to prove it.
Now that is beautiful.
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  #35  
Old 05-16-2007, 02:24 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Sorry Steven, you mean you DON'T tune your rock and put organic stickers on it??? A sculptor I know calls the marble his friend. He says he can do anything to it, it understands him and he understands it. A lifetime relationship - tuned to each other. At least, I hope that's all it is...

By the way, there would be many people who would be puzzled by the organic sticker - in my experience few members of the public know that most carving rock is organic in origin.
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  #36  
Old 05-16-2007, 12:36 PM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

No I don’t tune rocks or put stickers on them.. (yet anyway)..

To the original post, I work on rock to get away from it all like you and most everyone else (I think) and also aspire to rise above something, which is undefined at the least and seemingly illusive and ever changing.
Rock, steel and clay are great venting mediums because they allow us to expend vast amounts of energy (physical and mental) without damaging anything or anyone around us. The people in the old village trying to recapture some long lost ideal of beauty and ironically becoming little Goebel’s in the process are a reminder that to obsessively chase after that notion of “rising above” (insert whatever it is you wish to be above here) can lead to cataclysmic failure..
Hope and beauty and art itself become mangled by compulsion, greed and man’s obsessive pursuit to rise above something and it is a warning to us that there exists some responsibility in creating that which we believe makes us somehow better.
In this sense, minimalism to me is the least invasive and a safe haven for those who wish to create hope and beauty and rise above without destroying those aspirations in the process. It’s funny to me that the candle dripping crystal tuning rock-programmers all seem to seek that same great escape and to rise above us non rock-programming types. That aspiration to rise above and escape is an impossible goal in the end, how can one escape or rise above himself?
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  #37  
Old 05-16-2007, 05:52 PM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Great thread..enjoyed it so far. Don't understand some of it LOL. And following my little passionate rant earlier would like to add on the theme of beauty...I found a book by a guy called Eric Newton, 'The Meaning of Beauty' Pelican Books. Cost originally 6 shillings in old uk money. First published 1959 Published by Penguin in paperback in 1962. No ISBN too old I guess. I found it in an Oxfam bookshop (Charity Shop) find a lot of great art books in these shops. It cost me £1.99. It has a very interesting take on what makes beauty and why, I still have a chapter to go and suspect no definative answer, never the less its a great and relatively easy read. Geometry gets a lot of points, but so many other interesting points...dam forgotten why I mentioned this now, its great fun watching oneself become senile! Whatever if you can get hold of it its worth reading, has made me think a lot about my work. It covers a lot of what we have touched on here and of course was written when Picasso for instance was still really hot and was the yard stick for contemporary art, some say he still is???. Art was much easier then, no long dreary banal amature vids to be bored by very few if any instalations, have you noticed how when you read the A4 blog about why the artist has made this work outside of the room, box etc, that you get really excited about what you are going to see and do you generally like me come away being profoundly disappointed by the work! Perhaps its just me...its not a new thing Donald Judd does that to me as well...I agree with all that he writes but am so bored with what he does/did. I know I should be engaged but I guess I'm a cave man at heart I need my passion to be as much physical as intellectual, I want beauty in my art even if its ugly like in nature, the stunted burnt out tree can be beautiful, the storm...etc and all that romantic crap that I love. Oh and Mustard of course not, just that I have not met anyone in my small world who is not an artist, that admits to even thinking about these things unless he is a business man, garbage man, scientist who has taken the time to think about art first. Lets face surely there is something different about SOME artists, poets, philosophers, something in there make up that makes them do what they do. This something maybe just ego, a madness, self destruction on and on but it is something unless you are of the current school of thought that everyone is an artist...NO THEY AINT of if they are then I'M NOT and I want to know what is it that makes me different, why do I have different perceptions to all these artists, why do I perceive beauty where artists only see an opportunity, hobby, sex, pleasure, work etc.

Done it again...I only meant to tell you about my enjoyment of the book and I'm ranting again...it either needs to stop raining or my son needs to go of to Uni so I can get my studio back, then I would spend less time on here being a sad old B..st..d. Nite nite, John.
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  #38  
Old 05-16-2007, 05:59 PM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Well StevenW I happen to be a certified “candle dripping crystal tuning rock-programmer”. For instance the best way to cleanse the energy of others from a crystal or stone is to immerse it in a glass container filled with a salt solution and place it in natural sunlight.

The ideal of rising above ones self is simply the intent and focus of doing better at a personal endeavor than one has done before. Most of us attempt that on a daily or weekly basis; pretty natural thing. To rise above just do the same thing better next time.

Escape comes in countless forms; something as simple as reading a book. However I know you are alluding to all the “new age” stuff. Seems to me you have been blinded by science. The larger part of science is tragically limiting because it says, “this is all there is and this is how it works.” A smaller branch of science says, “wow just the little bit that we understand points to a whole lot more that we do not understand but is part of a mysterious reality.

I find that quantum physics, especially string theory align perfectly with meta-physics, the greater reality far beyond our physical earth bound form. That is the place where one can rise above or escape from. Maybe you need to do some energy work.
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  #39  
Old 05-16-2007, 06:11 PM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

There is a beauty of sorts in your ramblings jessculptor. But maybe your question is the important one for this thread, what distinguishes an artist, what is different about an artist, what is the intangible way that an artist looks at the world that sets him or her apart?
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  #40  
Old 05-16-2007, 06:22 PM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantab
Allenring (Re: post 30) - Sorry, I just found the 'life is beautiful' thing too much. If I felt that I wouldn't be able to sculpt anything..... 'Life, don't talk to me about life', a quotation from the Depressed Robot in 'The Hitchhiker's Gude to the Galaxy'.

Sounds like someone lost their towel. If you can quote Melvin then you are probably not too far gone but I have a pack of hyenas here that you are depressing.

I always wondered if some, or maybe most artists work out their inner issues by abusing some perfectly innocent media like paint, metal or stone rather than seeking professional counseling. I always figured that explains the appearance of a great deal of art, especially the public stuff. What do you think?
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  #41  
Old 05-16-2007, 06:23 PM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

To me what separates an artist from the rest of the gelatinous squirmers out there is an unquenchable and relentless desire to experience things in a new way...and to be the one responsible for this newness. I'm afraid if your only goals are to polish skills, accumulate technical knowledge or represent by tireless expulsions of academillectuality (not a real word), then you will not be adding substantially to the arts.
What an artist understands as "beauty" will be an entity that momentarily teams with his/her outreaching consciousness, feeding an insatiable appetite for an experience, an instant, unlike any of the billions of instants that preceded it. And sometimes other squirmers will get it too.
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  #42  
Old 05-16-2007, 08:24 PM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

That's remarkable Allenring. Salt, water and sunlight are the same ingredients I use to remove mustard stains from my jeans. Works a treat and my jeans get fully tuned in the process.

I think our idea of "rising above" may be a little different. Where I come from the daily endeavor you speak of is simply known as practice. When I think of rising above something I picture the extraordinary, a unique or stunning brilliancy.

As for the "larger part" of science, I'm willing to wait until it is defined and tested before I take pleasure creating my own. History shows that the indulgence in "mysterious realities" have negative consequences... Simply ask Bruno, he was done in by the candle drippers of his day. :\

On a personal note, I'm happy the way I am and seek no "energy work" or metaphysical sorcery. Likewise, I'm the last person on Earth to hinder any one's recreational indulgence of the same.
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  #43  
Old 05-17-2007, 03:23 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Re:Post 36. “Hope and beauty and art itself become mangled by compulsion…” - StevenW. Wow! Wisdom. And thanks for raising again the issue of 'rising above'/transcending life through art (Post 1).

I have a theory about seeking to rise above, transcend, etc. I think this desire in human nature arises from the fact of human consciousness itself. When we look around the world, all we see is clearly physical – rocks, trees, the human body, the land beneath our feet. Our CONSCIOUSNESS of all this, however, is not experienced as physical. I have no doubt that it IS physical, we just don’t experience it as such. We experience the world, then, through a kind of medium that does not itself seem to be like the objects that fill it or are encountered by it. In a sense, the act of being conscious itself offers transcendance. The act of self-consciously encountering the world sets us apart from it. We are not just blind matter. Hence we identify with the transcendental, we create religions that express the nature of human consciousness in theological form. We create art (physical objects) that express HOW we transcend objects! Art objects are not like other objects. We love other categories of transcendental things, like the open sky, long empty beaches and the sea. We develop sciences that seek out the transcendental as they map outer space, and the equally vast possibilities within the atom. This may also be why day-to-day life can be a bind (Post 1) - it ties consciousness to a limited set of forms and shapes, or possibilities, when consciousness isn’t a form like other forms in the natural world. Its fundamental formlessness drives us to transcendental experiences and to things that express this formlessness.

By the way, one of the reasons I have loved the land art of Richard Long is his commitment to an art that springs the surprise of the art object on us. Long loves the vast open spaces of desert and moorland, and to come upon one of his stone circles on such a landscape, or a pair of straight lines, suddenly springs upon the viewer the presence of the human mind, the presence of a conscious act in an unconscious world. His art IS ordinary natural objects in a natural setting, but transformed by an act of shaping, and forming. To add to this, his work is left to disintegrate into the natural world again, so that even the form itself is not absolute, an end in itself. Its fluidity reflects Long’s commitment to lived experience, to travelling these places, to the relationship with these vast formless spaces, rather than the object itself. After all, the world is full of objects. It’s consciousness that is the startling thing, and that’s the startling thing we seek out in art objects. Beauty, then? All beautiful objects must help us to rise above things, maybe ourselves, day-to-day life, ossification.

Tomorrow I go back on the pills…

Last edited by Cantab : 05-17-2007 at 06:44 AM.
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  #44  
Old 05-17-2007, 07:03 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart
To me what separates an artist from the rest of the gelatinous squirmers out there is an unquenchable and relentless desire to experience things in a new way...and to be the one responsible for this newness. I'm afraid if your only goals are to polish skills, accumulate technical knowledge or represent by tireless expulsions of academillectuality (not a real word), then you will not be adding substantially to the arts.
What an artist understands as "beauty" will be an entity that momentarily teams with his/her outreaching consciousness, feeding an insatiable appetite for an experience, an instant, unlike any of the billions of instants that preceded it. And sometimes other squirmers will get it too.
Boy is that well said, can't add anything here, and yo, listen up squirmers cause this guy is a genuine level 10 user!

StevenW, "As for the "larger part" of science, I'm willing to wait until it is defined and tested before I take pleasure creating my own". Putting new age stuff aside, be careful of your science proof. Todays absolute facts are tomorrows outdated theories. That is the business of science. As the hot shot level 10 guy above so well stated, we are in the profession of the new, not the proven, that is the business of art.

Does salt and sunlight really take mustard stains out of jeans?
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  #45  
Old 05-17-2007, 09:20 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Quote:
Originally Posted by allenring
I always wondered if some, or maybe most artists work out their inner issues by abusing some perfectly innocent media like paint, metal or stone rather than seeking professional counseling. I always figured that explains the appearance of a great deal of art, especially the public stuff. What do you think?
I suspect that a lot of our behaviour is pathological, usually referred to as 'personality'. But Van Gogh made some good stuff, and Richard Long looks and acts like he prefers sand to people. Anthony Gormley's love of isolated male figures (and being buried alive in a life cast) is all a bit scarey. But there's something I like about f****d up people and the art they make.
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  #46  
Old 05-17-2007, 10:19 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Yes it does, water is the universal solvent and will dissolve anything and everything given time and when combined with salt and sunlight it creates a "natural" bleaching effect.

http://www.greenpeace.org/canada/en/...entips/laundry

Oh, P.S., I strongly recommend against immersing gypsum or other soft rock like Satin Spar in salt water to tune them. Salt water will pit and scar and erode that nice shiny 15-2000 grit finish you worked so hard for. I dry sand almost everything and even though it takes longer, the end result is almost always nicer.

Steven

Last edited by StevenW : 05-17-2007 at 10:22 AM. Reason: I forgot something
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  #47  
Old 05-18-2007, 06:29 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

If we are using beauty to describe a trancendental visual achievement or as physical evidence that a rising above has taken place then we must not forget that horror, terror, misery, revulsion, fear and other such motivators of our consciousness and imagination have no less powerful potential, regarding their uses as loftiness fodder, than their more ideal, agreeable and idealistic counterparts. Representing actualities (or fictions even) that might repel our viewer or engage him by morbid curiosity is perhaps as much of a tool in the hands of the artist as any desire to treat his fancy. Nature and concsiousness are conditions that do not make judgements of value - good or evil, nor do either feel pain or sorrow or glee or elation. The self awareness will learn things that connect with its hosting physical entity and make such assesments...but it remains that its duty is to engulf exceptional occurences in an effort to feed its all too hazy dabblings, its hyper-absurd considerings containing equal portions of life and death.
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  #48  
Old 05-18-2007, 09:06 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Hi, Many of these posts remind me of those so called "artist statements", you know the ones,
"Through my art I wish to transcend nature, rise above the everyday and express the universal beauty inherent in the world around us. I hope to open the viewers mind to the discovery of the beauty that I've found and lead them to the spiritual awakening that I think is needed in today's society."
When I read that esoteric bullshit, I run for the nearest exit.
If your ego is so big that you actually believe that shit, you're NOT an artist!!!!!!!
If you want to transcend, rise above OR escape everyday reality, I'd suggest some acid or a certain "shroom".
Personally, I just go into my studio every day and try to make a 3 dimensional object that may or may not express something of who I am.
I want this 3D object, while being non-objective in nature to have some emotional content (as nebulous as that sounds) and avoid being merely decorative.
If the work has that truth/beauty thing going for it, that's okay.
If the work is raw and somewhat ugly, that may be okay too.
If my work transcends ANYTHING, please don't let me know!
Being an artist is ALL about the journey, and for me it's a journey of self discovery through the work.
What's really cool about being an artist is that you get to work hard in your studio at something that is your absolute passion.
You get to make something unique, no one else can make what you make AND people (hopefully) pay you money for these objects which enables you to continue your journey and make more objects.
How cool is that?
Oh, and when your car breaks down (a reality), and a good auto mechanic fixes it when you can't, I think that mechanic has just transcended every day reality and created a beautiful visual achievement (your car is fixed) beyond compare.
Sadly, good auto mechanics are few and far between.
Have a great day and make some good art,
Jeff
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  #49  
Old 05-18-2007, 09:32 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Nuthin' like the human consciousness to remind us that spirituality is a lie and the only real thing is the human consciousness.
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Old 05-18-2007, 10:03 AM
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Re: Thoughts on the beauty of art

Quote:
If your ego is so big that you actually believe that shit, you're NOT an artist!!!!!!!
Finally, an exemption to your ludicrous "intent = art" argument--the almighty ego, and spiritual mindedness.
Quote:
If you want to transcend, rise above OR escape everyday reality, I'd suggest some acid or a certain "shroom".
Art works better for me.

jOe~
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