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  #51  
Old 10-28-2006, 10:51 PM
Thatch Thatch is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

About the force;

I was power carving in the backyard, turned off the die grinder, straightened up and looked east. I am pretty serious about protective gear and being an audio geek I wear ear plugs as well as the mickey mouse protectors. I hear a big sound.

Now I have to tell you about where I live. We bought a house built in the 50s in a 20s blue collar neighborhood that was too up and down for agriculture. I live under big trees. Over 50 on my lot alone. When the wind blows you can see, hear and feel the power.

So I look east, I hear a sound through the protection. The wind had been steady from 20 to 40 mph out of the north all day. The trees are moving, leaves falling, a good steady fresh noise constant. I look through the bamboo grove towards my neighbor's house and 4 cats are running for their lives, reach me about the time the bamboo starts to move. Something moved south to north a good 40, maybe 50 mph between the houses, through my yard, across the yard behind me and the trees are whipping all around and I hear a roar. I stand in awe of the power of what just happened, thank the power for letting me witness it and go back to work. I have witnessed these wind vortexes before and once I tried to run from one and it chased me down. Back and forth it followed me. I ran from it because of something Castaneda wrote. I was shocked when I thought it followed me. I jumped in a gulley and it went over me and I was a bit frightened because it really acted like it was after me. That thing was all of 5' across, slow moving and since it was in the pasture I have no idea how tall. The thing that blew through yesterday at high speed against the wind missed me by a few feet, was a good 15' across and was whipping the trees at 60' up. It was violent. I told Julia and she said "Those things live so fast it didn't even know you were there." Wow.

About drugs. I seldom indulge and that is weed. I do enjoy sitting in the dark and getting off while listening to an audiophile grade recording of some really high caliber music. I don't like crashing and I have to be very carefull to just get high enough for a rush because it makes my heart beat out of cadence. I usually go years between smoking up. I would never consider sculpting high because I am a power carver. Coffee sometimes, tea often but I won't even take the medication for the blown sciatic disc in my back till I am through playing with the power tools. I chopped off almost half of the index finger on my left hand stone cold sober and in case you are curious it really hurt. Much more than my back does when I am working. In fact I would say the back pain is an anchor to my body, and that ain't a bad thing. It keeps things in perspective. I know exactly where I am and what I am doing. When it hurts too much I am usually tired enough that to continue would be foolish. I don't use drugs because of the quality of my art. I don't use drugs because it really hurts to amputate body parts. The fact that the art might be better without the painkiller is nice, but anybody who has constant pain can tell you that painkillers are maintainance and you don't get high using them. You just don't hurt as much, but you still hurt. My worry is that my reflexes might be a bit slower and at 50 they already ain't what they used to be.

As far as I am concerned what people ingest is their own concern if they are adult. I don't care what you eat, drink, pop or smoke. Hey, we lit farts in Boy Scouts after ingesting nothing more than beans. People don't need help to be goofy.

Thatch
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  #52  
Old 10-29-2006, 10:15 AM
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Quote:
Hey, we lit farts in Boy Scouts after ingesting nothing more than beans.
Hmmm, bet my 12 year old daughter now wants to be a Boy Scout. But I'd rather have you over to "really" listen to my Martin Logan's and enjoy the scenery. With an unlimited North -South exposure, it does get windy and we do get some big thunder storms on my hill. No fears however, my big dog's Indian name is "he who chases thunder". During storms he runs across the property trying to catch the thunder claps.

peace, jOe~
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  #53  
Old 10-30-2006, 03:35 AM
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tlouis
Grow up. Stop putting money into the hands of the drug lords/terrorists. Put it into funding children's causes ie: hospitals, schools, meals for indigent kids.

Have a sculpture rich, DRUG FREE day. Lou
Mwouahahha... this is so funny!

Yeah right, the fact is that we are in the recess of the wave of the 70s. Too much liberties for us kids of these times.
The justified and the ancient who did not keep their youth mind of creativity and progress would prefer a society with less drugs, less sex and more consumption. Forbid public nudity and drugs, you'll get heavy consumption of porn and booze/smoke.

I guess we should not mix the society issue with its biggotry regarding a drug practice that was certainly here before we started to write or even maybe talk.

We should not mix it with englighten attitude with drugs.

Drugs are a tool to go some places faster than with other tools: faster than meditation even if it can lead to the same result.

Drug is a power tool. Just as with a Ferrari when you mess up you usually get more hurt than with a bicycle, drugs are the same: power tools.
When you mess up with LSD, you can get more hurt than with coffee.

The more powerful the tool, the bigger the potential.

The difference between users and uses praxis? Welll... simple... Education.

There were shaman in the times who would lead the path for an enlightening experience. Not anymore.

Absolutes are dumb: there's nothing like saying "You should take drugs" or "Should never take any drug". It's so dependent on the people, the environment, the drug itself.

I just say, you should know what you're taking and what you're doing.
And that can have very positive effects as very negative. Not everybody can do this.
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  #54  
Old 10-30-2006, 04:18 PM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

philpraxis -


Okay, yah, its easy when you smoke a joint to get in the groove, to let go, to fly through an opened widow that moments before may have been locked to you. I have found though, its in the time when figuring it out that I grow the most, to face the problems head on with a clear mind. To find my way through the bumps , to look inward to the details of life. I am gesture drawing, free to be, a never ending trail who's mistakes, jagged edges and smooth line define me. I travel a road, at times unnavigable, but there's always a path, in the back track. When I am in the studio and i find my self blocked, road closed, instead of the sweet taste of the white smoke, I find that my fix, it exists, made from the heart.
All the best,
Mark

Last edited by mark pilato : 10-30-2006 at 05:52 PM.
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  #55  
Old 10-30-2006, 05:35 PM
G. Murdoch G. Murdoch is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

I'll shake hands with Mark, Ironman, Horsemodels (and anyone else) anyday.

I just re-read this thread from the beginning, and would like to comment that, in my opinion, the opinions which carry most weight are those based on personal experience, and also those informed by study (Sculptor, Anatomist).

My positive experience with different drugs and the creative process;

Psilocybin (magic mushrooms); Enhanced visual acuity, language facility, manual dexterity, awareness of universal interconnection, peace & well being, hilarity, joy, transcendance.

THC (marijuana); mild euphoric, enhanced concentration.

Alchohol; release from inhibition.

I have read a couple of references in this thread to Carlos Castaneda, and my take on his message would be; Ingest a powerful plant which catalyses a change in consciousness, learn the lesson that plant has to teach, then practice attaining that special state of mind without ingesting the plant. This is the intelligent and spiritual use of drugs. Certain plants can show me things, by taking me deeper into the heart of the mystery. My job is then to remember the way into the mystery, while stone cold sober, so that I can venture there at will, and return with gifts.

Glenn is right that every positive state of mind which drug users attain can be attained by the sober through prayer and meditiation.

Philpraxis is right that the drugs will take you there faster.

My own frequent use of the "back door" to higher states of mind through drug use had enormous negative consequenses, as I wrote earlier. I now endeavor to get there the slower, safer, sober way.

Graham
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  #56  
Old 10-30-2006, 05:55 PM
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Thumbs up Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Murdoch
My positive experience with different drugs and the creative process;
Agreed with many things you said sir!

Also, Reine des pres ( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reine-des-pr%C3%A9s or in english Meadowsweet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadowsweet ) was never classified as a drug even if it has very good sides:
Relaxed state to euphoric state after intense physical (sculpting clay) work.
Plus it helps when you have tendinitis.

even legal drugs can be really cool.
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  #57  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:31 PM
Tlouis Tlouis is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

philpraxis

Putting money in the pockets of drug lords and terrorists is FUNNY? Donating money to children's causes is FUNNY?

Don't quote me in any further post. I don't want to be associated in any way with someone as callous as you.
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  #58  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:46 PM
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Quote:
I have read a couple of references in this thread to Carlos Castaneda, and my take on his message would be; Ingest a powerful plant which catalyses a change in consciousness, learn the lesson that plant has to teach, then practice attaining that special state of mind without ingesting the plant. This is the intelligent and spiritual use of drugs.
This is an incorrect interpretation. Castaneda used while under the guidance of a shaman who stressed many times the dangers of the plants. don Juan, his teacher, mentored and guided his experience with extensive lecturing that amount to psychotherapy. The lessons were not "in the plants". don Juan presented Carlos with a very structured, alternative view on conventional reality. That perspective, along with lessons on increasing will power and self control was the point. Unstructured experiments are what lead to abuse and addiction because all you are accomplishing is "rearranging your prejudices". Because as several people have mentioned, "drugs take you there faster", they weaken your will power( the very thing don Juan tried to strengthen in Carlos) and create a need for more easy feel good times. The first order of business is always self discipline . If you are doing drugs everytime you feel bad or confused, that should be your first wake up call, Castaneda did not have the strength or development of character to do it on his own.

By the way, in 1971, one of Castaneda's professors at UCLA offered to get me into the graduate program there. I took a different route.

jOe~
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  #59  
Old 10-30-2006, 08:35 PM
tobias tobias is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Hello all I love getting high One might say I live my life from one high to another I love to drink in fact I drink specific alcohol to get specific highs I love caffiene contrary to what some here say it is a drug regardless of its acceptability I also love adreniline I ride my motorcycle way too fast I jump off cliffs into rivers i practise martial arts and when i spar its against the biggest i can find I run to get high off the endorfins i have sex in public places I have done most drugs some to excess i meditate I almost never take any asprin or penicilin or what ever ( Ilike the natural non processed stuff)

but when i started painting I decided not to do so under the influence and this carried through to my sculpture I still find a sort of high in it tho like when i am invited to go and carve somewhere or when some one i dont know tells me how my work affects them or when i sit and look at my work and wonder how i have done some thing so amazing(this may sound arrogent but i love what i create... mostly and am not ashamed of it)

as far as social ills are concerened I think to blame drugs or what ever just enables bad people to do bad things I dont really believe in AA or like organisations because i think they replace the addiction with a dependence on god and I dont know if that is any better than drugs ( no slight to any one who took that route) Oh some one posted that if you prohibit public nudity and drugs you will have consumption of porn ... Well I get nude in public and i drink in public and i still consume porn and what ever else i can get my hands on.

so I hope I haven got too far off topic but I guess my thinking is get high feel good any way you can. Try not to hurt others. There is too much shit in this world I think if you are trying to spread beauty and your message is innocent you need to do it any way you can. Thank you for reading.

Written sober
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  #60  
Old 10-31-2006, 01:31 AM
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philpraxis philpraxis is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tlouis
philpraxis

Putting money in the pockets of drug lords and terrorists is FUNNY? Donating money to children's causes is FUNNY?

Don't quote me in any further post. I don't want to be associated in any way with someone as callous as you.
Hey, take it easy:

a/ I never said that these things are funny. Where do you get that from?

b/ You say something as accusatory as this previous point and then you say "You do not have the right to answer this" ?

My personal vision of this:
- If you want to post things like that which are not nice and do not bring any reference element to justify, please use private message instead of the board.
- If you don't want people to answer you, don't write them.

On drugs and persons, there are as many ways to use drugs as there are people.

And obviously, many locations and regions have had so many problem with drug associated with violence and abuse that the word "drug" has a very different connotation than in other places. Even a different meaning.

Now on the will power, I think only work on the oneself (thru drugs or whatever) is the only way to enhance and develop such kind of qualities. I do believe also that each quality is a drawback at the same time. Just as for drugs indeed.
Too much will power used in some way can lead to not listening to people or to yourself... which is not good either.

Actually, too much of anything on a repeated basis can be bad I guess.

Peace,
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Last edited by philpraxis : 10-31-2006 at 01:42 AM.
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  #61  
Old 10-31-2006, 06:49 AM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

lets get back on track - it's clear that some of you have and some of you have not.
For those of you who do - take us on a journey- tell us a story about a sculpture a piece of your art, show us the process of creating wile high, then at the end show us that piece, give us your words, raw and true.
For those of you who have never done, invite us to your places, lets set some tables and have some fun. Tell us a story about when you found your inner place.
For those who have - but don't anymore, show us your tools , take us through the ins and outs, tell us a story of discovery.

Lets sculpt and share together so we may learn some prospective and get a fix, who knows maybe a new tool is in this mix.
All the best,
Mark
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  #62  
Old 10-31-2006, 08:18 AM
Tlouis Tlouis is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

philpraxis

Read your own words in post 53:

Mwouahahha...this is so funny! Your words...not mine.

End of story.
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  #63  
Old 10-31-2006, 09:54 AM
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HorseModels HorseModels is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

In my life, I have experienced both natural and artificial highs (the artificial ones were back in the 70's when I was young and stupid and ancient history for me now), and I can tell you that the natural highs for me far outweigh the unnatural ones. All of the sculptures I have ever done were accomplished with a natural high. Sculpting itself is a natural high for me. I love to create and find the most satisfaction sculpting while being in complete control of all of my faculties. I don't need chemicals or artificial stimulants to release serotonin and dopamine to get an endorphin high. Sculpting and creating gives me a natural rush that no chemicals can compete with (at least for me). For inspiration, I hike and spelunk in the mountains. Just being close to God and nature, makes me want to go home and sculpt.

For what it's worth, I use a lot of dangerous tools while sculpting, including pneumatic die grinders, torches and extremely sharp carving tools. I shudder to think what I might do to myself if not in complete control of my faculties. I get cut and burned all the time just being klutzy. I nearly cut my left thumb off a few days ago with a kitchen knife and impailed my left arm the next day just doing yardwork. It is difficult for me to sculpt while bandaged up as the clay keeps sticking on the bandages and the fibers on the bandages keeps getting in the sculpture.

Maybe a clean and sober lifestyle won't work for everyone, but it sures works for me.
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  #64  
Old 10-31-2006, 10:09 AM
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Quote:
show us the process of creating wile high, then at the end show us that piece, give us your words, raw and true.
Created while high on quiet and solitude. The critics were silent. Permission to explore was granted. True freedom was experienced.
jOe~
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  #65  
Old 10-31-2006, 10:53 AM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Joe - oh yah, very cool piece, I dig the repetition, the flow and how the stones hold there own like in a thrown., tell us more about this piece start at the beginning and bring us through show us your process, were did the stones come from were was your sculpture born tell us from the inside out?...
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  #66  
Old 10-31-2006, 11:43 AM
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Quote:
tell us more about this piece start at the beginning and bring us through show us your process, were did the stones come from were was your sculpture born tell us from the inside out?...
The stuff I can write about is boring and useless. Like I scrounged the metal over a period of 2 years, intending to use it for several different projects--but I hit dead ends everytime. When I let go of my preconceptions and opened my mind to new possiblities this piece happend , unlike anything I've done. Nothing was planned or sketched. One thing lead to an other. I did know in the back of my mind that I would be using stones some time in the future. I just didn't know when. So I used a cutting torch, metal bandsaw, welder, drill press, 1/2" hand held drill, grinder, hydraulic and manual benders, hammer and chisel. But the real questoin is where did the concept come from? I don't know...it happened. If I knew, then it would become a formula, then a production line, then I'd quit. I have to conclude with quotes, as usual, from others who have said it better and done it better.

"There is no reality except the one contained within us. That is why so many people live such an unreal life. They take the images outside them for reality and never allow the world within to assert itself" Herman Hesse

"You start, and you don´t know exactly where you´re going to end. It is the privilege of intuition, the confidence in the intuitive drive. I have complete confidence in the inner self; the outer one is of no concern to me " Louise Bourgeoi

"One thing is valuable in art—that which cannot be explained". Braque
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  #67  
Old 10-31-2006, 11:58 AM
G. Murdoch G. Murdoch is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Hey Joe,

Cool piece, I like how the gentle curve of the spine lets the figure lead with the heart. Regarding Castaneda, I'm sure you are right. It was probably 15 years ago that I read his stuff.

I still stand by the opinion that there is an intelligent way to use drugs in the creative process, as a rare experience of plant catalysed consciousness expansion, rather than as a lifestyle.

I had been carving stone for a couple of months, made 4 small pieces from soapstone, very simplistic, a couple of female faces and a couple of ankhs. I was studying Chinese Medicine, living clean & sober with my 6 month old daughter and her mother, meditiating and exercising daily, etc...

Then I recieved a tab of LSD from an old roommate. I packed a small pack with a piece of soapstone, a chisel & file, and some fruit & water. I said a little prayer in the morning, placed the tab on my tongue, and started walking. The ensuing adventure is too much to document on this thread, but the pertinent part is that I had hiked about halfway up Mount Douglas, and was sitting on a fallen tree in the forest, breathing with the trees. When I looked at the uncarved stone in my hands I saw Gabrielle and her mother in a composition of joy, spinning on one leg with Gabrielle up above her head. I spent the next 10 hours carving what I had seen, then after a good nights rest, I continued carving until the piece was finished.

Compared with what I had carved previously, this sculpture, called "JOY", was several orders of magnitude more complex in terms of composition. The ability to hold a composition as complex as a couple of figures ina state of dynamic equilibrium was latent within me, and the LSD opened the door to a more advanced level of visual thinking skill. I have never had to ingest LSD since that day in order to visualize compositions, but I am grateful that I took that drug on that day, for I recieved a tremendous gift.

Graham
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  #68  
Old 10-31-2006, 12:27 PM
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jOe~ jOe~ is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Quote:
I still stand by the opinion that there is an intelligent way to use drugs in the creative process,
I never said there wasn't. What I did say is that its damn dangerous, habit forming, and will not work on any repetitive basis. Also, there's the usual cautions about driving a motor vehicle and operating machinery. I've hurt myself hundreds of times using tools while straight, would never dream of working while under the influence of any substance. The piece you created wasn't luck, but not slicing a body part open was.
Quote:
I am grateful that I took that drug on that day, for I recieved a tremendous gift.
So the real question is, what prevented you from executing the same piece before the LSD? The answer to that question is your real gift. If you can't answer that question then you've really experienced, gained and learned nothing of value.

jOe~
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  #69  
Old 10-31-2006, 01:28 PM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

okay Graham it sounds like Joe is giving you a challenge,
heres his question - "So the real question is, what prevented you from executing the same piece before the LSD? The answer to that question is your real gift."

read these words and try to answer from the heart. also post a picture of your sculpture Joy.
all the best,
Mark

Last edited by mark pilato : 10-31-2006 at 01:40 PM.
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  #70  
Old 10-31-2006, 02:03 PM
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Graham, I would not expect you to have the answer to my question. Answering a very personal question of that depth and complexity can take the better part of a life time. It did for me. If you can reply, I would be extremely impressed! If not, believe me, I understand. There is no harder question. The point of all this is to get in touch with your core being, make friends with it and nurture it. I did not intend it as a direct challenge, to be answered in public. However, if you choose to try, know that we are on your side.

Joe~
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  #71  
Old 10-31-2006, 06:33 PM
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desertrock desertrock is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

I want to see a pic of that LSD assisted sculpture.
Please post it.

Mark
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  #72  
Old 10-31-2006, 06:52 PM
G. Murdoch G. Murdoch is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Hi Joe & Mark,

Off the top of my head, my answer to what it was that prevented me from being aware of a latent ability for complex visual thinking before taking acid, is that I don't know.

I believe everybody is chock full of abilities, talents, and gifts which may or may not be realised, awakened, or expressed in any meaningful way. Generally speaking, I would say that reasons why so much human potential remains dormant and unrealised would include; the voice of the culture (and many families) which denigrates dreamers, and discourages the pursuit of one's heart's true desire. This is not intentionally malicious in most cases. Parents do not want thier children to starve in the dark, nor in many cases are they willing or able to provide financial and emotional support sufficient to see an emerging artist through the tough period of artistic development, where talent needs time & resources in order to grow to maturity, and financial self sufficiency.

The short answer is fear.

I'm not sure I can agree with the contention that lack of comprehensive answer to the question indicates that nothing of value has been experienced or learned.

I possesed an ability of which I was not aware. I had a drug induced experience which catalysed awareness. I remain aware of the ability many years after the experience. I have no need or desire to take any drugs for any reason at all anymore.

I realise there is no combat motive in our posts back and forth, simply mutual goodwill, and a desire to understand.

I don't have a digital image of the sculpture "JOY". I'll dig up a hard copy, then scan it, hopefully soon.

Graham
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  #73  
Old 10-31-2006, 07:31 PM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Thanks Graham, It sounds like your experience was good medicine as the elders would say. Look forward to seeing Joy in the future.
all the best,
mark
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  #74  
Old 11-01-2006, 05:56 AM
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Blacksun Blacksun is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Use of iillegal drugs as an enhancement to the creative process....are you insane?

Whatever artistic talent I have is a product of my biology, environment, and a gift from God. It is me. Why would I pollute it with extraneous chemical crap?

To parapharase - Opiates are the weak man's opiate.....
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  #75  
Old 11-01-2006, 06:31 AM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: drugs and the process - yes or no

Wow Black Sun, insane in the membrane. Tell us a story about why you feel this way, show us a sculpture and bring us to your place.
I think its important to note, there are many reasons people use drugs and i would think that over 75% of you, the readers here, take them in one way or another? lets here from more of you, lets bring it out. This thread has only been up for 5 days and already over 800 views, your out there so plug it in and throw it all out.
all the best,
Mark

Last edited by mark pilato : 11-01-2006 at 07:27 AM.
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