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  #101  
Old 02-10-2006, 07:52 PM
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Landseer Landseer is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesW
No worries - its 8am & 26 degrees C here in Brisbane. I'll tell you what if you make it here it's my shout. James
Convert that to F and you're buying right?
Ok then deal, lets all go to Jame's, refreshments are on him (along aith first class airplane tickets
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  #102  
Old 02-10-2006, 08:09 PM
G. Murdoch G. Murdoch is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Greetings, yes it would be grand to go down under and have a refreshment with James. Any local stone worth carving down there?

By the way, interesting quotes. Hitler of course goes down in history as a genocidal maniac, rightly so, may he rot in hell. However he was visually literate, with a thorough understanding of the power of images. A complete discussion of all the factors that contributed to the rise of the third reich is beyond the scope of this discussion, but the decision to appropriate the swastika (ancient sanskrit image of eternal life) proved to be a very effective component of the propoganda campaign. I consider it a tragedy that in addition to the millions of lives lost, the swastika itself, its essential power and beauty, is ruined. We in the modern west are culturally conditioned to recall the horrors of the nazis whenever we see it. Instead of life, we see death.

Graham

Last edited by G. Murdoch : 02-10-2006 at 08:34 PM. Reason: more to add
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  #103  
Old 02-11-2006, 01:11 AM
JamesW JamesW is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Yeah you guys c'mon down. (first class airfares eh? always travel up the pointy end do we?) If I'm buying the airfare you'd probably be sitting on the wing! - just think of the view.....
Local stone... the landscape here is real sandstone country good for monolith type structures but not too crash hot for fine work I think. Of course marble is used alot here but I'm not sure if its all imported or not. (I'm really not very knowledgable about this area at all so if someone else is better informed please chip in)
Yes Mr Hitler was very visually astute (appropriated the roman eagle too I think) And the swastika - what a thief. I've travelled a fairbit through asia (Bali, Singapore, Malasia, Thailand) and no matter how many times I see that symbol it jars & shudders me to the core. Very sad. Does any one know if swastika is the sanskrit word? be nice to use another one if it isn't. Went to a beautiful old temple/royal palace in Bali that was next to a beautiful park - the colonialists (happened to be Dutch but could have been any number of others) took the entire royal family including children into the park & shot them all (leaving no heirs so now no royal family). Hearing that story & wandering the empty temple with swastikas was almost overwhelming.

On a brighter note If any of you guys do make it down here you've got a place to stay in Brisbane(and yeah the beers on me - not that us Aussies drink much of the stuff (ha ha). I might get off my butt & post a selection of Australian Sculpture related sites so you can checkout what goes on down here - if you think that would be useful & it hasn't been done before.
Anyway I don't know why I keep saying down here - we're actually on top of the world you guys just have your globes upside down!
Cheers James
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  #104  
Old 02-12-2006, 09:10 PM
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GWayne GWayne is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Museums and galleries should exercise restraint and act in a responsible manner when putting together contemporary shows that are to viewed by the general public. The curators who create exhibits like the running faucet are sending a bad message to future artists that says you don't need any talent, skills or creative ideas to be a successful artist as long as you hide behind the "art is anything" philosophy.

GWayne

http://www.georgewayne.com

Last edited by GWayne : 02-12-2006 at 09:27 PM.
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  #105  
Old 02-12-2006, 10:07 PM
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Who better than artist to criticise the works of other artist and pseudo artists?

A lot of " contemporary art" really is crap , offhandedly "created" by lazy no talent slobs who like to surround themselves with other lazy no talent jerks.
And many curators and "sculpture teachers" fall into this clique. It seems that their stock in trade is verbeage and shock value and an infantile rejection of cultural values. I gave up on my university's sculptor professor when I realized that his idea of sculpture was breaking things and smearing them with paint and glue, then leaving them lying on the floor.
(in a constant meandering quest for "something new" they have lost respect for art and in so doing lost my respect.)

that being said

We are all contemporary artist producing contemporary art in its myriad facets and styles.

In my construct, art must follow craft and craft should be embodied in art.
And this, my friends, takes talent, dedication, and hard work.

My personal taste lean heavily toward the figurative, which doesn't mean that I can not see beauty in the non figurative works of other artists.

Turrn this off
and go back to work

rod
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  #106  
Old 02-13-2006, 10:37 AM
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Merlion Merlion is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesW
Yes Mr Hitler was very visually astute (appropriated the roman eagle too I think) And the swastika - what a thief. I've travelled a fairbit through asia (Bali, Singapore, Malasia, Thailand) and no matter how many times I see that symbol it jars & shudders me to the core. Very sad. Does any one know if swastika is the sanskrit word? be nice to use another one if it isn't. Went to a beautiful old temple/royal palace in Bali that was next to a beautiful park - the colonialists (happened to be Dutch but could have been any number of others) took the entire royal family including children into the park & shot them all (leaving no heirs so now no royal family). Hearing that story & wandering the empty temple with swastikas was almost overwhelming.
Your mention of Singapore attracted my attention, James.

Anyway, about the swastika, yes, it has been very much used for a long time in the east as a religious symbol, and appear in many religious places.

Also about the above, and whether swastika is a Sanskrit word, I quote Wikipedia.

"The swastika (from Sanskrit स्वस्तिक svastika) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles in either left-facing or right-facing direction. It is traditionally oriented so that a main line is horizontal, though it is occasionally rotated at forty-five degrees, and the Hindu version is often decorated with a dot in each quadrant.

The swastika is a holy symbol in Hinduism, Jainism, Heathenry and Buddhism. In the West, it is more widely known as symbol of Nazism.

The swastika is used universally in religious and civil ceremonies in India. Most Indian temples, weddings, festivals and celebrations are decorated with swastikas. The symbol was introduced to Southeast Asia by Hindu kings and remains an integral part of Balinese Hinduism to this day, and it is a common sight in Indonesia. The symbol also has an ancient history in Europe, appearing on artifacts from pre-Christian European cultures. By the early 20th century it was widely used worldwide and was regarded as a symbol of good luck and auspiciousness."


It is very unfortunate that the sight of this religious symbol can since the 30s and WWII bring chill down the spine of many who had come across directly or indirectly Hitler's Nazi brutality especially his genocidal mass killing.

Last edited by Merlion : 02-13-2006 at 11:23 AM.
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  #107  
Old 02-13-2006, 11:52 AM
JamesW JamesW is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Sorry this is off the topic - but thanks for the info Merlion. I really love Singapore and if I'm ever travelling that way perhaps we could meet. (you could show me the best hawker stalls !)
James
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  #108  
Old 02-13-2006, 12:24 PM
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rderr.com rderr.com is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Quote Rod…Turrn this off
and go back to work

rod


We are all contemporary artist producing contemporary art in its myriad facets and styles.

In my construct, art must follow craft and craft should be embodied in art.
And this, my friends, takes talent, dedication, and hard work…quote Rod

Rod,

Of course the key words are “contemporary” and “work”. Contemporary means in the present moment. And work, well, we all know “what is and what i’snot”. As my old Grand said, “Two things always float in life (i.e. “contemporaneously”) cream and shit.” And I would add only history will know which is witch.

Art is provocation.
RDERR
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  #109  
Old 02-13-2006, 12:44 PM
G. Murdoch G. Murdoch is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

James,

I may have to sell a few sculptures to afford to visit. Regarding Hitler, I wish he had taken a more avant garde approach to art. If he had chosen say, a smashed urinal adorned with soup cans of shit set against a background of random color splashes, well he propbably would have inspired a following of 20 rather than 20 million. Humanity could have been spared the horrors of the holocast and WWII. Sadly, the evil bastard was right as far as what type of art / imagery is capable of touching people, lots of people, rather than tiny cliques. The tragic case of Hitler makes rather than breaks the argument for universal standards, I'm afraid.

Graham
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  #110  
Old 02-14-2006, 03:19 AM
JamesW JamesW is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Hi Graham
I guess the point I was trying to make was about freedom of expression and the dangers in labelling an entire genre 'bad' art. But please let me know if you ever intend producing a work like the one you described (broken urinal,cans of shit etc) thats one exhibit I'd gladly avoid ! I guess the question we really have here is about quality - how do we measure/describe it. I also wonder whether the definition of sculpture has been stretched so far that we need new terms to describe some of the more radical sculptural practices ( hence the title 3D works). I think for me a quality piece of art is something that intrigues/moves me, elicits an emotional response and is sophisticated/beautiful enough that through repeated viewings a gain more & more from the work - and that I want to return to the work repeatedly because I get so much out of it. I readly agree that some contemporary works can appear superficial and while they may initially be shocking or humorous they quickly lose there appeal and don't hold my attention. Of course that response can be created by more traditional forms of sculpture too - yes thats a nice bronze dog, obviously well crafted but ho hum lets move on. I'm afraid popularity is not a measure of quality - no one liked poor old vincents paintings much at the time - and if we use food as an analogy McDonalds (don't they no how to reach millions) would be recieving their 3rd michelin star !
And yes Back to work ! & best wishes for selling your sculptures
James
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  #111  
Old 02-14-2006, 05:19 AM
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Merlion Merlion is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesW
Yes Mr Hitler was very visually astute (appropriated the roman eagle too I think) And the swastika - what a thief.
Sorry to have to go off topic again. But I just notice a BBC news article related to Jame's mention of Hitler making good use of the visual imagery of the Roman eagle. I cut and paste excerpts below.

Graf Spee's eagle rises from deep

Divers have salvaged a 2m (6ft) bronze imperial eagle from the German World War II battleship Graf Spee that was scuttled in the River Plate.

Three divers had to loosen 145 bolts securing the 300kg (661lb) eagle to the stern of the craft in the muddy waters off Uruguay's capital, Montevideo.

"The eagle is really impressive... it's all virtually intact," said team leader Hector Bado.

The ship was scuttled in December 1939 to stop it falling into enemy hands.

Mr Bado told Associated Press news agency the eagle had a wingspan of 2.8m (9ft) and a special barge with a crane was needed to raise it from the river.

The barge brought the eagle back to port on Friday with a yellow tarpaulin covering the swastika at its base - out of consideration for those who still hold strong feelings against the symbol of Nazi Germany, Mr Bado said. [snip]


This full article has a good photo of the bronze eagle. A more detailed photo can be found in this MSNBC article.
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  #112  
Old 02-14-2006, 09:56 PM
G. Murdoch G. Murdoch is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

James,

Indeed, McDonald's proves that popularity certainly does not equal quality. I'm delighted to read your own personal standards regarding quality work. Perhaps my original point (apologies for starting out so crude and angry) is that, in absence of established standards of quality, each individual must be willing to apply their own standards. Best of luck to you as well in your sculptural endeavors.

Graham
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  #113  
Old 02-14-2006, 10:57 PM
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Landseer Landseer is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

James wrote:
"Does any one know if swastika is the sanskrit word? be nice to use another one if it isn't."

It is much older than Hitler's Germany, I have seen a whole web site devoted to it's history, it was appropriated along with a pretty hymn tune by Franz Hayden which was converted into the German Nazi Anthem, now both are strongly associated with Nazi Germany.

James also wrote:
"yes thats a nice bronze dog, obviously well crafted but ho hum lets move on."

You have to remember there are a couple of reasons for art, or rather- producing it- personal satisfaction for fun, or selling to earn a living, they are very different from one another and if the artist needs to eat this week he will produce and offer for sale whatever he or she knows will SELL, be it a bronze dog or a urinal.
Few of us have the luxury of producing expensive art (bronze, marble etc) just for kicks, so it stands to reason most of us here are selling our works, maybe not every single piece, but most of them.
You have to produce what will SELL if you plan to sell.

Interesting article Merlion thanks for posting that, pretty cool Eagle salvage!
I have a heavy cast-iron eagle from a Heine boiler, along with the huge- 15" across brass steam gage, the eagle held a light bulb over the gage and was a functional trademark on all Heine boilers for decades. The eagle's wings were hot riveted to the body which was made in two halves also hot riveted, and bolted to the base.
Interesting thing is, they made boilers for SHIPS as well, so these were also found there.

Last edited by Landseer : 02-14-2006 at 11:16 PM.
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  #114  
Old 02-22-2006, 06:04 PM
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

This article below provides very interesting insights based on a recent interview with Damien Hirst. It gives insight into whether, or to what extent Contemporary Art is a Fraud.

It is a very long article. The full article is here. I cut and paste below some excerpts from it.

Damien of the dead

Human skulls, praying carcasses, crucified sheep... all in a day's work for the world's most successful living artist. But how will it go down in god-fearing Latin America? Sean O'Hagan talks to Damien Hirst on the eve of his first show in Mexico.

When I meet Damien Hirst at his gallery in Mexico City, he is hungover from a marathon drinking session at his beach house the previous night. It is, he tells me, the first time this has happened in ages, and he is none too pleased with himself. [snip]

The following day, his hangover has gone completely, replaced by a kind of restless, impatient energy. It's as if he wants to do everything, all the time, right now! A force of nature. 'You have to be driven,' he says. 'You've got to believe.'

We go shopping for skulls. He buys two, and a painting of a skull, and a weird death mask that looks like a skull. 'I fucking love skulls,' he says, as Hilario guides us though the traffic. The two met by accident under a year ago, and seem to have bonded. Hilario has the slightly dazed look of a man who can't quite believe that the world's most famous living artist has landed on the doorstep of his brand new gallery. 'It's an honour,' he says. 'Not just for me, but for Mexico.'

He points out a famous old cinema that has just closed down. 'Let's fucking buy it!' shouts Hirst. 'We can turn it into a gallery.' Hilario nods nervously. 'I'll find out the price first, Damien,' he says. Hirst looks at him in mock horror. 'Fuck the price!' he shouts. 'Let's just do it!'

Hirst is acting up for the press, of course, slipping from one persona into another: one minute the bohemian artist, the next the business tycoon, the next the working-class lad from Leeds turned superstar who still doesn't give a monkey's. [snip]

Later, in a more subdued moment, he says, 'Money complicates everything. I've got a genuine belief that art is a more powerful currency than money - that's the romantic feeling that an artist has. But you start to have this sneaking feeling that money is more powerful. They constantly collide, these notions. I even toyed with the idea that having too much money was the same as having not enough. Is it fuck? No way!'

Later, I watch him make one of his signature spin paintings. It's quite a show. Pure Hirst. 'I want to make some mess!' he shouts, striding into the gallery, stripping to his underpants, and pulling on a white protective suit several sizes too small and a pair of goggles that seem way too big. He perches on a stepladder looking like a mad scientist and starts flinging pots of paint at a big revolving circle of wood. I keep thinking, "What a way to make a piece of art!" And then, when I hear what the price tag will be, I think, "What a way to make a quarter of a million quid!" It looks like child's play - which, of course, may be part of the reason why it works. 'More red!' he shouts. 'More black!' [snip]

Does he ever feel anxious about his wealth, his fame, his soul?

'When I was caning it I did. In the drugfuelled filth I was involved in, you can lose your vision of everything, really. Sometimes, if a piece is worth too much money, you can't see the art on the wall for the dollar signs. It can mess with your head. It can mess with the work.'

Has that happened?

'Maybe,' he says. 'It's like, you can sell something for five or 10 or even 100 grand, and still say, "So what? I don't give a fuck." But, when you sell something for a million for the first time, it's like, "Fuck! What? Hold on!" When we sold Hymn [Hirst's giant statue of a child's educational toy, purchased by Charles Saatchi for £1m in 1989], that was the first time I got scared about it all. You get the doubts. Is it good enough? Have I got the bottle if it gets any bigger?' [snip]

More than any other artist of his generation, Hirst is utterly of and about his time; the conceptual artist as pop star, business tycoon, maverick and icon. More than anyone else, too, he has turned conceptualism, and the public resistance to it, on its head. When he enthuses about his hero, Francis Bacon, you get the sense that he could also be talking about himself.

'The greatest thing he showed me is that ability is unimportant. He just went, "I don't fucking care! I know I can't fucking paint feet or heads or hands or eyes, but that's not gonna stop me painting how I feel." He didn't give a fuck. He said, "This is me! Fuck you!" The courage of it is just unbelievable. It wipes the floor with anything you can ever learn.'

At this point in his trajectory, though, it is Hirst's business acumen, his phenomenal earning power, that truly astonishes. He is the first artist to play the dealers and curators at their own game, buying back much of his own work off Saatchi, investing in whole collections by the likes of his friend Sarah Lucas. In all this, Frank Dunphy, Hirst's amiable but hard-headed business adviser, plays a crucial role, both as a kind of father figure and a canny financial adviser. A former showbiz accountant whose first clients included Coco the Clown, Dunphy has been instrumental in Hirst's continuing thrust towards commercial autonomy. 'I came on board during the perceived rock'n'roll years,' he smiles, 'and Damien's finances were a bit rock- 'n'roll, too. Nobody knew who owned what.'

When I ask Dunphy if it is true that Hirst now takes a 70 per cent cut of all he sells through his dealers, rather than the long established 50-50, he smiles and says, 'Sometimes it's 70-30 in Damien's favour, sometimes it's 80-20.' [snip]

After three days with Damien Hirst, I figure it is finally time to get down to the nitty-gritty.

How much, I ask him, is he actually worth?

'I don't know for sure,' he mutters, as if he couldn't care less. Oh, go on, I say, take an educated guess. 'About £100m,' he says, grinning that hooligan grin of his that has somehow survived intact through it all - through the fame, the controversy, the chemical madness, the sudden, swift surge towards global domination. 'Something silly like that,' he shrugs, still feigning disinterest. Then, as if he can't quite help himself, adding in typical bravura fashion, 'I know I'm richer than any artist has ever been at my age.'

What is indisputable is that Damien Hirst is now not just the world's richest and most famous artist, but a global brand, the controller of a burgeoning business empire, and a major art collector. He owns works by Jeff Koons, Richard Prince and John Bellamy, to name but a few, as well as a collection of his own work which he famously bought back off Saatchi with the money from the Pharmacy auction. His collection will eventually be housed in the sprawling splendour of Toddington Manor, the Gothic pile in Gloucestershire he recently purchased for £3m.

When I met him, he had just received planning permission for his other big property venture - the creation of a new kind of art space which will take up 'half a street' in Vauxhall, south London. It will comprise nine separate gallery spaces, as well as a Hirst-designed restaurant and maybe a recording studio. 'I want it all,' he said at one point, when I asked if he has any ambitions left. 'And I want it now!' He was joking, of course. But, then again, maybe not.
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  #115  
Old 02-23-2006, 01:09 PM
G. Murdoch G. Murdoch is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Interesting article, I didn't read the longer version, just the parts Merlion posted. I was intrigued by the desription of the creation of the spinning wood painting. To me, this is precisely why so many consider contemporary art a fraud, any idiot could do it. I wonder, does Damien Hirst (or anyone else in the "anything goes" camp) ever fail? Does he ever stand back from a creation and say to himself "Drat, I missed on that one. The finished work does not correspond with my inner vision."? Does everything he touches automatically become a precious piece of creative genius, no matter what?

I succeed / fail to varying degrees with every sculpture I do. Before I start carving, I have a vision of what I want to render, and depending on my visual thinking skill, and craftsmanship, the finished sculpture will correspond to the original vision to some degree. I am rigorously honest with self appraisal of my own work.

I don't have a problem with other approaches to the creative process, just a sense of bafflement when I see art that seems to have been created by accident being hailed as genius.

Regarding peer review, this is very important to me. I care what the public think somewhat, what other artists think generally, what other sculptors think particularly, what other stone-carvers think specifically. In the area of critique, actual tangible experience is coin of the realm for me.

Graham
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  #116  
Old 02-23-2006, 09:06 PM
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Landseer Landseer is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Murdoch
Does he ever stand back from a creation and say to himself "Drat, I missed on that one. The finished work does not correspond with my inner vision."? Does everything he touches automatically become a precious piece of creative genius, no matter what?
I wonder.. good question, I'm inclined to think some like this have a childlike view of their work where nothing they produce can be flawed or incorrect and it's all grand, exciting and perfect! I almost wonder if that sort of thing comes from parents never telling their kid something like "That finger painting you did looks like crap, no I don't want it on my refrigerator for everyone to see!"
Ok, maybe not THAT extreme, but you get the jist- being upfront and HONEST with the kid/teen who does something poor instead of glossing it all over as perfect, warm and fuzzy- showing them or telling them what's wrong with it (appropriately for the kids age) and how the kid with the parents help can learn to do BETTER.

By appropriately for the kids age I mean, a 2 year old can't paint the Sistine chappel ceiling of course, nor compared to Michaelangelo, but an artistic 16 year old should be able to do say, a reasonably good drawing of something you recognize, with some measure of quality of work and time spent on details, accuracy etc. If the 16 year old kid paints something that LOOKS like a toddler fell in the finger paints and rolled over the paper, the parents should be up front and honest about how they view it and not gloss over it as a masterpiece BECAUSE their son drew it so it MUST be good.

Quote:
I succeed / fail to varying degrees with every sculpture I do. I am rigorously honest with self appraisal of my own work.
We all do, hell, there isn't a perfect artist on the planet, I look back at my early dog sculptures (those I kept) and they were horrible, wrong anatomy wrong proportions, you name it. I threw some of them OUT even, I have a few left in a box in the basement and everytime I see the box I'm very tempted to toss it!

But somewhere, somehow, there was a drastic, dramatic and sudden improvement and I have NO explanation for it. It didn't arise over time from practice or instructors! It was like Friday finishing a model that looked like crap I later threw out, followed on Monday by a model of a standing St Bernard which just turned out so thrillingly great that the model I did after that one started a series of them, it was my standing sheepdog bronze pictured in a couple of places here.

If I had half a mind I'd post a photo of one of the lousy sculptures, but I think it would be painful to see over and over again in here.

Quote:
Regarding peer review, this is very important to me. I care what the public think somewhat, what other artists think generally, what other sculptors think particularly, what other stone-carvers think specifically. In the area of critique, actual tangible experience is coin of the realm for me.

Graham
Trouble is most people are NOT upfront, I normally AM, if I don't like the model or think it has a problem I say so and explain why.
I can look at Blake's models and I HAVE said I don't like figure sculptures, but his modelling, surface rendering, poses, anatomy, expression etc are excellent and I've said as much- whether I LIKE figure sculpture or not is of no consequence, nor for example does it affect my views on his models- I can dislike figure sculptures and torsos as this is a preference and it doesn't get in the way of my expressing what I think about the pose, subject, patina, detail, modelling, anatomy etc.

If a torso is sculpted right it's a torso, it can't really be faulted much, the surface modelling treatment and patina CAN be faulted but this too is more of a personal taste/choice than a problem WITH those aspects or their being "wrong"

Blake for example again, may prefer torso "X" to have a purple patina, I may hate this color on a bronze and say so, but the purple isn't wrong nor is my dislike of it, if he asked if I liked the purple I'd say NO I hate it! if he asked what I thought of the purple I could express some opinions on it- the two being separate from one another.
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  #117  
Old 02-24-2006, 03:10 PM
JamesW JamesW is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Regarding Damien Hirst:
I've never seen any of his work in real life so its a bit difficult to comment on it - though some of his work I like the concept behind it.
And no I didn't read the full article (the short version was quite enough)
Look - the guys quite warholian in that he's a great self publicist, takes the piss a bit, makes lots of $.
Disagree Graham about the spinning wood paintings (in priciple any way 'cause I haven't seen any) ...think of Jackson Pollock and his work. Absolutely beautiful (many at the time said he was just splashing paint about & anyone could do it). I can assure you that falling into the more conceptual sculptural/3D/installation camp I do critically analyse my work & re-work them over & over until they're right. I certainly accept that there is skill & craft in sculpting stone/marble etc - maybe there's skill & craft in conceptualising & realising/creating less traditional work? Just a different skill.
Back to Damien - his whole persona is a performance & some people expect artists to behave like that - he's obviously found his market & he's milking it (not the first or last to do that). Rest assured though if I had a choice between having lunch with you guys or Damien - Damien wouldn't get a look in.
James

Last edited by JamesW : 02-24-2006 at 03:18 PM.
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  #118  
Old 02-24-2006, 06:15 PM
G. Murdoch G. Murdoch is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

On the one hand, the fact that Mr. Hirst is the most commercially successfull living artist leads me to despair just how far down the rabbit hole we have travelled. On the other hand, I breathe an enormous sigh of relief that no other area of human endeavor I can think of would put up with this approach. Can you imagine?:

Interview with Damien Hirst, the world's most accomplished accountant; "Fuck mathematics! Fuck fiduciary and actuarial principles!" I ask for a demonstration of his revolutionary accounting technique. He throws his abacus at a collection of calculators, then spins around while counting ceiling tiles with his left eye. "Eleven!" he screams.

Interview with Damien Hirst, the world's most accomplished thoracic surgeon; "Fuck anatomy! The courage to weild the scalpel the way I feel just wipes the floor with anything you could learn in medical school!"

And so on...

Graham
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  #119  
Old 02-25-2006, 12:03 PM
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Landseer Landseer is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Murdoch
Interview with Damien Hirst, the world's most accomplished accountant; "Fuck mathematics! Fuck fiduciary and actuarial principles!" I ask for a demonstration of his revolutionary accounting technique. He throws his abacus at a collection of calculators, then spins around while counting ceiling tiles with his left eye. "Eleven!" he screams.
Yeah, I read part of that article and then closed it, the guy comes off sounding like an angry bitter "fuck you and everything too" teenager. I don't like his attitude or style. He didn't seem to have anything important or inteligent to say in that article.
The fact that he bought what seems to be a very old gothic manor has me worried he'll trash the place and destroy it to make a contemporary box out of it. From the way he talks and his attitude you get from it I can visualize him ripping out all the 18th century carved woodwork and ceilings to put in his modern art gallery or something, and then in 2-3 yeras get tired of the place and dump it.
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  #120  
Old 03-02-2006, 04:29 PM
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Murdoch
...down the rabbit hole we have travelled. ...Can you imagine?:

Interview with Damien Hirst, ... "Fuck mathematics! Fuck fiduciary and actuarial principles!" ... "Fuck anatomy! The courage to weild the scalpel the way I feel just wipes the floor with anything you could learn in medical school!"

And so on...

Graham
Gee Graham, you've got a real gift with words:

mr hirst seems extreemly alienated and as misery loves company, he wants to share
Thanx anyway bro. Keep yer diseases to yerself

comercial success may be anathema to artistic success

long ago and far away
I was having a chat with Jasper Johns, wherein, he was bemoaning the dark side of success
he said that he had sold paintings which he hadn't conceived nor executed, saying--"I could swallow paint and puke on the canvas and people would buy it"
Like most respectable artist, he wanted people to buy his art because they liked what they saw
and now
they were buying his signature
bidding on the next "Jasper Johns"
-----so instead of busting his hump trying to catch up on his back orders, he was chatting with us, trying to understand motivation and success.

Dali's work suffered after his wife's successfull comoditization of his art.
He was having to knock out 2 and 3 a day just to keep up with the orders.

And we all want that kind of commercial success?
yes indeed
all artists are nuts
bull goose loonie
and totally fucking insane

'cepting me, of course
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  #121  
Old 03-02-2006, 11:55 PM
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obseq obseq is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Nice insight on Johns, Rod.

From what I understand regarding Dali and his wife, it was equivalent to a brain-damaged prize-fighter being made to fight based on the draw of his name and large purse.

Mrs. Dali=Don King?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sculptor
Gee Graham, you've got a real gift with words:

mr hirst seems extreemly alienated and as misery loves company, he wants to share
Thanx anyway bro. Keep yer diseases to yerself

comercial success may be anathema to artistic success

long ago and far away
I was having a chat with Jasper Johns, wherein, he was bemoaning the dark side of success
he said that he had sold paintings which he hadn't conceived nor executed, saying--"I could swallow paint and puke on the canvas and people would buy it"
Like most respectable artist, he wanted people to buy his art because they liked what they saw
and now
they were buying his signature
bidding on the next "Jasper Johns"
-----so instead of busting his hump trying to catch up on his back orders, he was chatting with us, trying to understand motivation and success.

Dali's work suffered after his wife's successfull comoditization of his art.
He was having to knock out 2 and 3 a day just to keep up with the orders.

And we all want that kind of commercial success?
yes indeed
all artists are nuts
bull goose loonie
and totally fucking insane

'cepting me, of course
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  #122  
Old 03-03-2006, 08:49 PM
G. Murdoch G. Murdoch is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Sculptor,

Greetings. Indeed, actuarial and fiduciary are real gems, eh? To be honest, I must admit to confusion and frustration over the state of the visual arts world, as well as envy for those such as Mr. Hirst having achieved so much success. I really should endeavor to write in such a way that is affirmative of what I believe, rather than taking cheap shots at what I don't understand or agree with.

Thanks for the awakening, I had never before considered the possibility of being oppressed by success.

Really enjoyed the essay you posted earlier in this thread.

Graham
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  #123  
Old 03-03-2006, 10:07 PM
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Merlion Merlion is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

One additional comment about contemporary visual art from the point of view of East Asia where I come from. It does not relate to the vast majority of people here, even the educated and the middle class. It is just too far remote from their life experience.

When they see human figures and their expressions, even in partially abstract form, they can understand and relate.

One problem locally is that the decision makers in visual art financing in government and museums have mostly gone through visual art including art history and art management at universities overseas. And these universities nearly all give emphasis to the contemporary art fashion sweeping across Europe and US over the past century.

So the serious local visual artists have a tough choice. If they need recognition and funding, they have to follow the 'trend'. This makes their artworks further and further remote from the common folks. Or else they'll have to go for commercial art to survive.
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  #124  
Old 03-04-2006, 12:29 AM
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JAZ JAZ is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlion
One additional comment about contemporary visual art from the point of view of East Asia where I come from. It does not relate to the vast majority of people here, even the educated and the middle class. It is just too far remote from their life experience.

When they see human figures and their expressions, even in partially abstract form, they can understand and relate.

One problem locally is that the decision makers in visual art financing in government and museums have mostly gone through visual art including art history and art management at universities overseas. And these universities nearly all give emphasis to the contemporary art fashion sweeping across Europe and US over the past century.

So the serious local visual artists have a tough choice. If they need recognition and funding, they have to follow the 'trend'. This makes their artworks further and further remote from the common folks. Or else they'll have to go for commercial art to survive.
Interesting. Merlion, where you are, the artists have to follow someone else's consensus, someone outside of their own country? It's one thing to be influenced by the innovations around you and quite another to feel that you have to follow someone else's trend. Could you give more of the Asian perspective on where art is now? I recently saw online some steel sculpture in China that would fit in at any European or American contemporary sculpture park. Was this not the artist's own invention? Or are Western opinions about what is good imposing themselves on the rest of the world? That is a scary thought.
JAZ
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  #125  
Old 03-04-2006, 10:02 AM
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Merlion Merlion is offline
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Re: Is contemporary art a fraud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZ
Interesting. Merlion, where you are, the artists have to follow someone else's consensus, someone outside of their own country? It's one thing to be influenced by the innovations around you and quite another to feel that you have to follow someone else's trend. Could you give more of the Asian perspective on where art is now? I recently saw online some steel sculpture in China that would fit in at any European or American contemporary sculpture park. Was this not the artist's own invention? Or are Western opinions about what is good imposing themselves on the rest of the world? That is a scary thought.
Oh! The East has of course been regularly influenced by the West in many things. Some influences are good and beneficial, and some are bad, very bad.

About visual art in China, from what I know, it has changed a lot since the opening up of the country not too long ago. When I first visited China in 1978, Mao has just died, and everywhere people, male and female, wear the same Mao suit. Now if you go to big cities like Shanghai and Beijing, what they wear is very fashionable. A big sea change within just one generation.

With regard to sculptures from China, I can see from their 2004 national exhibition which I visited, that they cover the whole range of styles, from the classical to the modern, and spreading relatively evenly. I find this a healthy development.

This is the 10th national exhibition which is held every four years. The exhibits are drawn from the whole country (of 1.3 billion people) and selected first by many local panels of judges, and finally by a national panel. I think with such a variety of sculptural styles to be considered, these panel of judges must be able to cover the whole range.

By the way, these are mainly 3D stand-alone sculptures, with very few 'installation' art.

Last edited by Merlion : 03-05-2006 at 03:01 AM.
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