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  #51  
Old 06-18-2012, 05:32 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

Correct, I don't know any electedconservatives in Washington. I know of Rhinos such as Olympia Snow who other than an R after her name very much resembles a democrat. You probably have to vote like one to stay office there.

If you want to compare education in the 50's and 60's to today, you should also compare tuition costs, and look at the curriculum difference, before colleges became left wing bastions which of course being the good centrist you are you don't believe is the case, since everyone on the left is a centrist and those on the right are extremists.

But I'm referring to the days before they had departments of "diversity and cross-cultural affairs" with vice-chancellors of said departments earning 6-figure salaries. I'm talking about the days when US history and western civilization were classes one would take, not the history of the GLBT and femminist literature. I referring to the days when education was education, not indoctrination, were students don't emerge hating white European males, traditional marriage and families, and who saw the history of the US as a experiment in freedom and opportunity, not history of colonialism, imperialism, and oppression. Where the US constitution was taught and revered.

How quaint, eh?
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  #52  
Old 06-18-2012, 06:04 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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Correct, I don't know any electedconservatives in Washington. I know of Rhinos such as Olympia Snow who other than an R after her name very much resembles a democrat. You probably have to vote like one to stay office there.

If you want to compare education in the 50's and 60's to today, you should also compare tuition costs, and look at the curriculum difference, before colleges became left wing bastions which of course being the good centrist you are you don't believe is the case, since everyone on the left is a centrist and those on the right are extremists.

But I'm referring to the days before they had departments of "diversity and cross-cultural affairs" with vice-chancellors of said departments earning 6-figure salaries. I'm talking about the days when US history and western civilization were classes one would take, not the history of the GLBT and femminist literature. I referring to the days when education was education, not indoctrination, were students don't emerge hating white European males, traditional marriage and families, and who saw the history of the US as a experiment in freedom and opportunity, not history of colonialism, imperialism, and oppression. Where the US constitution was taught and revered.

How quaint, eh?
quaint, and irrelevant.

My point is simple- america benefits from having an educated populace. When the government paid for education, good things happened.

In those golden days you are remembering, there were conservatives complaining about communists on college campuses, radicals, hippies, beatniks, and free love advocates. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Many of those GI bill receipients went on to become republicans. And many were beatniks, poets, and bongo playing Maynard G Krebs types. And it didnt make any difference then, and it wouldnt now.

If you look at tuition costs, factoring in inflation, public university costs in my state have stayed the same for over 20 years- but 20 years ago, the state paid for 70% of the cost, and today, the state pays for around 30%.
Here is a chart that shows that the problem is NOT high paid administrators, or politically correct programs from the left- the cost has stayed at roughly $17k for over 20 years.
http://opb.washington.edu/sites/defa...ison-BRIEF.pdf
The University of Washington has cut corners, gotten more efficient, and kept costs constant- but the expense to students had gone way up. Which means many students no longer can afford college.

In the days of the GI bill, there was a measurable increase in earning power, and subsequent spending power, by the vets who got that "free education". The same thing is even MORE true today- college grads make more, spend more, and make our GDP higher and our economy stronger internationally. It is in our national interest to have a better educated population, and we are slipping behind many countries.

In fact, you could look at this as a national defense issue- our country is in danger, because we are so dumb. Other countries spend money on education, and get measurable results. We buy cruise missiles, and blow up mountains in the desert. Up thru last year, the US military was spending $20 Billion dollars a year on air conditioning alone overseas. (Its somewhat less now that we have mainly pulled out of Iraq.)
We routinely spend $400 a gallon for gasoline in Afghanistan, to drive million dollar MRAPs down roads laced with IED's, until they have to be rebuilt after 20,000 miles.

If we spent $20 Billion a year on educating our own citizens, do you think we would be better or worse off than spending that same amount on airconditioning in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Because that is the real world choice we had, and we chose air conditioning. That money is spent, its in the deficit column now.
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  #53  
Old 06-18-2012, 07:38 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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In those golden days you are remembering, there were conservatives complaining about communists on college campuses, radicals, hippies, beatniks, and free love advocates. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

The difference is that then the communists and radical hippies were students. Now those inmates are running the assylum. They use government to tax the conservatives who went into the private sector and hold real jobs, to sustain the high life and no consequences of living in the bubble of academia.



If we spent $20 Billion a year on educating our own citizens, do you think we would be better or worse off than spending that same amount on airconditioning in Iraq and Afghanistan?
If educating our citizens means teaching them hate America, private enterprise, and traditional marriage, while focusing on transgender equity studies, I would root for the airconditioning.

I guess how you frame a question matters. For example, would you rather have your tax dollars support diversity training, hate speech inquisitions, and classes about human sexuality in the GLBT community, or secure our national borders? (Bonus question: of those two choices, which one is actually mandated in the US Constitution?)

Another question...by a show of hands, how many want to see this thread continue to become a left/right banshee bickering bloviation about education?
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  #54  
Old 06-18-2012, 07:44 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

I'll rather move on to something less bloviating. no one is going to convince another of the rightness or otherwise of anyone's opinion.

How's the weather out your way Glenn & Rhies?
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  #55  
Old 06-18-2012, 08:51 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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I'll rather move on to something less bloviating. no one is going to convince another of the rightness or otherwise of anyone's opinion.

How's the weather out your way Glenn & Rhies?
There is a lot of hot air out where I'm at currently. Surely just a coincidence!
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  #56  
Old 06-18-2012, 08:59 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

I fully believe that bloviating is EXACTLY what must occur for humans to best manage their collective existence. The problem is that the folks in charge are not intellectually equipped to bloviate at all. So they simply retire back upon the natural impulses, like ants, and set the laughable course of "civilization". This is compunded by the fact that anyone capable of solid bloviation is absolutely disinterested in commanding such silliness as organizing beastliness. So the same has remained always, regarding governments, and yet some individuals exceed and do better things. Like US here. Right?. Sheeeesh!
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  #57  
Old 06-18-2012, 09:13 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

As for me , the ideas that GlennT would like to see implemented in the real world , and now represented by his enabler: Mitt Romney, are a sadness, and an embarassment personaly and I can only hope that enough people, uneducated as they are to the wiley ways of the moneyed ones,( none of whom I note have "given away their money to the poor" as JC suggested would be a first, small step toward christianity ), due to a lack of education, and an understandable corresponding lack of interest in Politics, will say "no" to these greedy war mongerers and leave this decent, if not brave, black man and his beautiful family in the White House for another term. What is 'Right" is questionable but presenting ideas as if they are not, is objectionable. Good for the ego maybe, but usually bad for the world.

Last edited by Mack : 06-18-2012 at 09:30 PM.
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  #58  
Old 06-18-2012, 09:55 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

good and evil, and light in the darkness, and god and jesus talkers can sure sound mean and nasty sometimes. think im gonna have to start voting just to keep those kind loving peaceful nice conservative types at bay lol
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  #59  
Old 06-18-2012, 10:01 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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good and evil, and light in the darkness, and god and jesus talkers can sure sound mean and nasty sometimes. think im gonna have to start voting just to keep those kind loving peaceful nice conservative types at bay lol
Hah! indeed. But they're the only ones who want the job.
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  #60  
Old 06-18-2012, 10:49 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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Art the worst business to be in
From a money making view, art is one of the worst paid professions, so that`s an irrefutable fact. One can choose to be a true artist and just have enough to eat (generally speaking), or shift towards the business side like making money without involving yourself as much in the spiritual/mental process and rewards of creating real art.
Very few dare face that challenge; namely, doing your thing against all adversity. That`d be a “true” artist. Difficult thing nowdays and more so in western societies where money making seems to be the eventual goal, of any trade. Personally, I had to change my orientation towards the $ side, hey, love sculpting, but I need money as simple as that. It`s a way of living, like been a farmer, a school teacher in a small town, an sculptor, a painter, a street (and not so) musician, a small town Doc… lawyers excluded from list, lol.
Funny how quickly the conversation can jump from the Business side of art to economics/politics. Socialist dreams, the American dream, other dreams, they`re just that or even worse: nightmares. What`s behind all at the end, greed. Leaving religious conflicts aside, most global conflicts sprout from greed. We`ve been taught to pursue with no limits what we ridiculously want(materially) so we can be “happy”. All right, an almost happy world we got…
Down here, citizens, debate, argue, fight, dream, thinking up there whichever party we pick, will solve our problems, We have the rulers we deserve. They are not coming from Mars, they are representative of each society, culture, or country, and each has particular modes of screwing people. Simple as that, and so long as “people” don`t evolve and gain insight, matters will worsen to the point of no return, collapse, big events will force the new man to rise from ashes. Sounds apocalyptic,what about real, look around for clues…
Glenn give all your goodies to the needy, don`t be wasteful, love your “equals” and make art at heart not for big bucks, you`d be happier, lol.

Just opinions.
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  #61  
Old 06-18-2012, 11:19 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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As for me , the ideas that GlennT would like to see implemented in the real world , and now represented by his enabler: Mitt Romney, are a sadness
My enabler? Really? I hope you don't look to politicians as enablers, that would be TRUE sadness, not your mock or mack sadness. I do look to the US Constitution as an enabler of what is good in this country. Ever read it? Your "beautiful, brave, black" (perhaps black matters to you?) Obama, and his "justice" department has abrogated the constitution more than any other President in US history, as well as given a new definition to crony capitalism.

Quote:
(from Nelson) Glenn give all your goodies to the needy, don`t be wasteful, love your “equals” and make art at heart not for big bucks, you`d be happier, lol.
You both are entitiled to your opinions, but projecting your opinions or assumptions about my life, of which you know next to nothing, as fact, is astoundingly ignorant.

Good luck and enjoy the stew.

chris 71, don't bother getting up from the couch to vote, I think you can just use the remote. lol
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  #62  
Old 06-18-2012, 11:46 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

"diversity training, hate speech inquisitions, and classes about human sexuality in the GLBT community, or secure our national borders?"

I had a class from the University of Washington up to my studio a few weeks ago, it was an undergrad art class, something like 3D design.

interestingly enough, no diversity training, hate speech, human sexuality, or national border securing was involved in the class.

Instead, these are young people who think they want to be artists. Their classes are about art. Crazy, eh?
When they came to my studio, their interests were in technique, materials, ideas, and also in the practical end of being an artist- where do you show, how do you sell, what are the nuts and bolts about being an artist for life?

And these are the same concerns of all the art students I meet and talk to- I am in pretty regular contact with art departments at two state colleges, the state university, and several community colleges. I know the professors, I crit classes, I give talks about my work, I jury shows, I hire students- and, in every one of those interactions, over the last 20 years or so, I have never once heard any of the bullshit Glenn describes being taught, discussed, or in any way intervening into university level art education.

Now, it is totally true that, given the wide diversity of artists who teach at art schools and art departments, there are many different opinions. For instance, near me, we have an entire art school devoted to traditional painting, drawing, and sculpture, the Gage Academy.
http://www.gageacademy.org/about/

And, sure enough, there are probably some liberals teaching Carravegio there, too. But I wouldnt call it a "left wing bastion". I have friends who teach there, and we talk about art- and somehow, they dont think that Andy Warhol and I have ruined western civilisation...

I know art professors who talk about sexuality in their work, and, sometimes, in their classes. Somehow, the kids still end up doing the work they want to do, regardless. Kids are funny that way.

I have found that art schools today are actually teaching a much broader range of approaches to art than they used to. Virtually every school I know teaches classes about actually functioning as an artist in the real world, for example. I think this is a good thing. Some schools are more oriented towards technique, others towards theory, and the theory taught varies widely. I know plenty of kids who choose particular schools based on who is teaching, or what is taught- its highly unlikely that poor, naive, conservative kids are going to be brainwashed against their wills to become the next Marina Abramovic. But I am glad Glenn is looking out for their interests, and preventing them from becoming gay conceptual artists while they arent looking.
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  #63  
Old 06-19-2012, 12:09 AM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

For lazy journalists with their heads in the sand regarding what is taught in colleges in exchange for your hard earned mega-dollars, I offer this informative website:

http://people.ku.edu/~jyounger/lgbtqprogs.html

We were talking about education in the broad sense when this came up, not art curricula in particular.


and Ries, your cute little quip at the end is more fluff from your cloud. My aim is not to prevent or interfer with a "gay conceptual artist", but rather to not elevate choices in human sexuality from private personal behavior into endowed college departments. It would be nice if people did not have their sense of identity wrapped up in sexual behavior, but rather in what they as PEOPLE can contribute to society. Elevating sexual behavior into an academic status is just patronizing and does not elevate the self-worth of individuals who would otherwise find happiness in real accomplishment. Who the hell should care if a conceptual artist is gay? Why do they need that label? Why even need "conceptual" as a modifier? Is it not enough to be an artist? Don't other visual artists conceptualize? This is the problem when people get too much education...they get crammed so full of insular/trendy points of view that they loose the ability to have original thoughts.
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  #64  
Old 06-19-2012, 12:38 AM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

which college art programs, exactly, do any of those things?

as I have said repeatedly, I am in relatively regular contact with a bunch of local art schools and universities. My wife is even more so, having taught or guested in the last year or so at prestigious art schools on both coasts and two other continents.

none of the boogie men you fear are real. aint happening. but my guess is that the last time you tread the halls of an actual art department, or spent any time talking to current students or professors was several presidents back.

also, I think pretty much all of the several hundred art students i have run into in the last five years or so would be pretty insulted if you told them that they were mere vessels to have trendy points of view crammed into- much like you or me, they actually have their own ideas, viewpoints, egos, likes, dislikes, and political opinions.

plus, there is, quite frankly, no time in the average art class for any of that frou frou you fear so deeply- there is never enough time for communicating the basic stuff, much less pontificating on philosophy or ideology.
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  #65  
Old 06-19-2012, 09:17 AM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

Actually, "philosophy" is a sub-category of Aesthetics (issues of the consideration of significant form, which is the primary driver of ALL individual human creativity). So if it happens that a professor is NOT including any philosophy in there teaching regimen (and I find that almost impossible) then they are likely not far along enough in their own internalizations about the possibilities of art to be at that helm.
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  #66  
Old 06-19-2012, 10:19 AM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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which college art programs, exactly, do any of those things?
I thought my previous post had answered this when I wrote:
Quote:
We were talking about education in the broad sense when this came up, not art curricula in particular.
But " ...a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest..." You were trumpeting the virtues of education ( not specifically art college) and I was making a point that education is one thing, indoctrination another.

chris 71, based on your last post, one wonders if you had learned anything from this forum about what it takes to be a successful professional artist, or what success even means. I will give you a helpful hint: It is doing what you love and loving it enough to do it well. All the friends and cronies in the world cannot help you to accomplish that.
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  #67  
Old 06-19-2012, 10:20 AM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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Instead, these are young people who think they want to be artists. Their classes are about art. Crazy, eh?
When they came to my studio, their interests were in technique, materials, ideas, and also in the practical end of being an artist- where do you show, how do you sell, what are the nuts and bolts about being an artist for life?
3-d design is a fundamentals level class, mostly a core option...mostly not art majors.

Quote:
This is the problem when people get too much education...they get crammed so full of insular/trendy points of view that they loose the ability to have original thoughts.
Any individual who might succumb to "insular/trendy" points of view, regarding art, art-scene and art history is simply shrinking from the work of having better thoughts. "Tradition" is nothing but a trend that is old. So any artist who might cling (at the expense of their originality) to the false ideal of an identified and mis-perceived segmenting, compartmentalizing and "ordering" of any art occurrences, past and current, is being lazy.
"Business" is the thing that wishes to follow the plan of what has worked BEFORE. Art is the opposite - and it rewards best when it has remained clean of the crutch of what came before. We need both though. The Business version neednt have anything to do with the art version...unless you think your "art" is business; in which case....thats probably exactly what it is.
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  #68  
Old 06-19-2012, 11:41 AM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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We may be talkng at cross-purposes here, Katy. There is no great risk to pursuing a career in the arts, if you proceed through art college, and go into one of the professions; when you skill up and then apply your skills.

When you talk about taking risks - what are you referring to?
Mental health, regrets, self loathing because you did not do what you could do--- etc. This has no bearing on whether a person makes money. If I had no ambition to quit "sweating" as Mack said, I would still have drawn/done watercolors or exhibited in libraries.

This has developed into quite a thread. The coordinates of personal worth, money, and creative output always is interesting.
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  #69  
Old 06-19-2012, 12:26 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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3-d design is a fundamentals level class, mostly a core option...mostly not art majors.
Every school is different.
this class was in the textile department, not a general art class, and was composed of about 8 juniors and seniors, all art majors, and was basically a studio class where they were doing major independent projects.

but how that makes any difference, I dont see.
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Old 06-19-2012, 01:51 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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wouldnt want to listen to any more media propaganda, dont need the fear mongering. or i might end up joining a church and getting more paranoid and.....
Chris 71, depending on whether or not you picked up the above ideas on your own or had learned them via your education, this may be relevant to the discussion of why or why not an education, as is currently offered, is needed.

You seem uncertain of your own values, because they could be easily be replaced by exposure to fear mongering, especially if coming from media.

You seem to think that churches are communities one joins on the basis of having fear.

You seem to think that church communities have fear fests or paranoia parties because you are worried you would get more paranoid at a church.

So, if churches have the reputation, at least in your area*, of increasing fear and paranoia, why would you go there in the first place? Wouldn't you be going under the presumption that the church could help deal with and alleviate your fears? (By "your fears", I mean the ones that you did not previously have before listening to media and having your own mind displaced)

* Churches that I am familiar with are places where people go for a number of reasons, such as love of God, desire for moral or spiritual guidance, comfort in familiar ritual, a sense of community, finding deeper meaning in important stages of life such as birth, coming of age, marriage, and death, a desire to study and absorb teachings believed to have been divinely inspired, trying to find an avenue that may make more sense out of what we are doing here on Earth than what comes at us through the media or daily interactions.....there may be other reasons too such as bingo, 12 varieties of jello or hot dishes at picnics, make the wife happy, freakin' out with a good gospel choir, etc. But fear as a main reason to go to church is not one that gets much mention, in these parts anyways.
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:12 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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but how that makes any difference, I dont see.
Oh, the TEXTILES dept. And they have their own version of the 3-d design course? Wow. Well I have no doubt that you made them aware that textiles can be art too. Cause art is never decided by which medium/process it is caused by.

But you're right, and not only are all art departments different but the very same course taught within the SAME school will be wildly different from each other because of the individual who is teaching it. And further, if the individual prof is conscientious about the continuing vitality of the quality he/she will teach the course different from one semester to the next; constantly tweaking in response with the said professors own progress.

And yes, there will eventually be the questions about how some money gets made by the few who really plan to be "artists". If the prof has some experience doing that, then they will have some good answers.
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:50 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

sorry everybody i deleted my above post cause i relize im making a fool outta my self and sorry glenn im trying to quit smoking and someone must have pissed in my bran flaks also
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:33 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

For others who may be interested, I am a tenured professor teaching sculpture at a liberal arts college. Our students happily pay (way) more than most in the nation per year – and seem to do well enough after college. I do teach toward pluralistic notions in my intro sculpture classes – even more so in my advanced ones. I do not teach them as indoctrination of my personal life choices nor at the exclusion of technical processes.
I’m happy to offer my informed opinion about how it all works and why it can be valued as part of a budding studio career.

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Let's leave the moral grandstanding out of the discussion, huh?
Agreed. Thanks for the nudge.

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  #74  
Old 06-19-2012, 07:08 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

Well, I guess the topic of this thread is whether or not "art" is a good business venture. And of course, this brings out the MAXIMALLY subjective demand for just what "art" might be. It always comes back to THAT. The discussion must bcome philosophical. Because there is a damned good chance that whatever someone thought they were doing that was an art business didn't involve any art at all. And there is no avoiding this issue on any discussion board that is sincerely invested in matters of "art". Artful things are not art and do not enrich at all like real art enrichens.
While there is art in everything, very little of it is actually art. This is the most important thing that can happen inside a head (merely surviving...by earning some money is way down the list).

You will run into taco trucks that regard their product as art. Guess what? It is NOT art. But they might well be running a good business...same as your architectural firms, your amusement parks and your museums...taco trucks, all. Pick a "good" business to be in. And then, if you still have any nerve left over, think originally and make some art.
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:07 PM
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Re: Art is the worse business to be in

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Originally Posted by evaldart View Post

You will run into taco trucks that regard their product as art. Guess what? It is NOT art. But they might well be running a good business...same as your architectural firms, your amusement parks and your museums...taco trucks, all. Pick a "good" business to be in. And then, if you still have any nerve left over, think originally and make some art.
Oh man, you`re really coming up with good stuff pal !
E, really couldn`t think of a more LOGICAL approach to surviving and still keep art unpolluted with mundane rewards.Got to believe it as it is the case 99.99 % of the time. lol
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