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  #26  
Old 09-10-2010, 09:55 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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Originally Posted by grhb View Post
E,
Giotto, sure nature/nurture is a similar debate. I relistened to the livingstone broadcast while fetching another bottle of argon at the store and thought it added to the debate, especially the fact that the visual cortex is a data processing center and not an image processing center and that data gets corrupted. really cool.
yes…when you think about it there is no light inside the brain. It has to be all data processing, not optical (beyond the eyeball) This is where I believe artist like Polycleitos ( Πολύκλειτος), Mark Rothko and Josef Albers are coming from. Playing with our unimaginably complex visual circuitry . Lots of room for new discoveries in the art world.

As for the nature nurture argument I have no doubt I would loose an arm and a leg breaking into someones house who had pit bulls.....my golden retrievers (if you carried snacks) would help you load up your car.


G
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  #27  
Old 09-11-2010, 07:50 AM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Dont be so gullible GH. Who told you that your walnut was nothing more than a "data processing center"? Sounds like the proclamation of one of those eggheads with the labcoat costume (scientists). It has turned out that hey have been wrong EVERYTIME so far.

It only takes a little bit of work to understand that it is a lonely ghost pulling the strings; the quintessential protagonist wrestling plasticity desperately and laboriously in hope of a temporary fulfilling. An anti-hero aloft against nature. If you resolve to think of yourSELF as nothing but dumb particles behaving subordinately to quantum rules and regulations then you'll never get the goods.

The Creative Impulse IS essence and it longs NOT for the easy incident that is survival; it longs for complete and untainted encounters with reality (since it resides mostly in fantasy). The purity of that encounter depends upon the ability of that experience to be clean of function, utility, assistance or the distracting wedgings of any other prying conciousnesses.

The primates that talk to you about biological computing posess nothing but some "intelligence". Their self-awarenes quotient (SAQ) is ever floudering at moronic levels. Hah!
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  #28  
Old 09-11-2010, 08:02 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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JRHB,

I don`t see much wrong with narcisissim, except that it may bother humble people, and us the conceded as well
gotta love it, the language barrier as unintentional provocateur.

I'll concede that I'm just a junior pencil too, but i keep tryin'
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  #29  
Old 09-11-2010, 08:58 AM
scrapartoz scrapartoz is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

jrhb,
you are , i think a ..bit too sharp for me to battle in words, ( I dont have your wordsmithing skills ) but Im keen to learn ( steal ) all I can from you. Show me your best work then( and only then )will I know if Im talking to a
student or a teacher.( a sort of academic/ tradesman pissing contest) The academic dialogue road is a bit scary to those who dont have that background. Words do mean a lot if the person recieving them is able to understand WTF you are saying. Why try to isolate half the viewing audience ? Is this a bit like the church speaking latin as a secret language that only a select few can enjoy and stop the 'riff raff ' from understanding??. It would seem that : 'swearing is the crutch apon which ignorant fuckers rely' is going on at the moment wiff u.
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  #30  
Old 09-11-2010, 09:33 AM
rika rika is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

I happen to think inborn talent is more important. Coupled with practice can deliver success. Or not. With hard work only, "deliberate practice" as the above guru says, stick men will become better stick men, yes. But that's all.
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  #31  
Old 09-11-2010, 09:47 AM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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jrhb,
you are , i think a ..bit too sharp for me to battle in words, ( I dont have your wordsmithing skills ) but Im keen to learn ( steal ) all I can from you. Show me your best work then( and only then )will I know if Im talking to a
student or a teacher.
Grhb...How about this ? Will you show us your work ?

G
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  #32  
Old 09-11-2010, 09:54 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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Grhb...How about this ? Will you show us your work ?

G
schtuff has been posted, just do a search. also combative on those threads.
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  #33  
Old 09-11-2010, 11:16 AM
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StevenW StevenW is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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SteveW-- yes, no talent, that's the gist of what i got from Colvin's piece-- no such thing as talent, just hard work. I don't know that i am convinced by the argument, especially now that i know colvin's just another dirt merchant, but its an interesting claim.

Giotto, sure nature/nurture is a similar debate. I relistened to the livingstone broadcast while fetching another bottle of argon at the store and thought it added to the debate, especially the fact that the visual cortex is a data processing center and not an image processing center and that data gets corrupted. really cool.

Well, I went to the Colvin link and the link on that page itself is broken so I couldn't get hold of his original article/podcast. I suppose we can glean though from reading the thread again what his basic gist is and boil it all down to something simple like: Why are there so many talentless high profile people? (artists, musicians, talk show hosts, politicians or whatever)... First though;

Giotto: The Nature vs. Nurture idea here is good but, the notion itself is less than 100 years old (post Freud) and in my mind the actuality is Nature and Nurture. The whole vs. notion is flawed to begin with and I happen to lean more toward the nurture end of the spectrum anyway and think nature plays a much less significant role.. So yes, "hard work" as grhb (or Colvin) is naturally suspicious of, to me is everything. An example is my old classical guitar teacher: 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration was his motto. He'd be the first to tell anyone that he had no talent whatsoever and the reason he could play like John Williams was because he practiced 10 hours per day. And technically he was every bit as good as John Williams but, that's another subject.. A long lost member of the forum, Jason once stated that Art schools were pumping out technically proficient (representational/figurative) students to "man the bastions" of the Castle de' Art (or some such) and it resonated with me because that's exactly what the music schools are doing too and have been for decades or even longer. So the question becomes is all that training worth it when there are so many talentless toads out there hopping over all the hard working one's on their way to the top anyway? Well yes is the answer.

Rather than litter the ground with psychoanalytical popcorn I'll simply say that from my perspective Art is extremely rare and in fact so rare that it doesn't even exist. It may be a bit like the Higgs Boson even, virtually impossible to find and so much the better I say. Those ideas make it all the more important for me to "work hard" because I also believe in the more Zen-like tradition that Art simply happens.

Last edited by StevenW : 09-11-2010 at 11:28 AM.
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  #34  
Old 09-11-2010, 09:46 PM
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cheesepaws cheesepaws is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

I see way too much talent out there (natural and trained) AND no shortage of artist brain boxes who are equally impressive in supplying context or rationalizations. What I don't see with any frequency are young artists who have the right balance of ego to fortify themselves in the name of endurance. Without such ego all that talent and intelligence are of little consequence.
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  #35  
Old 09-11-2010, 11:45 PM
Nelson Nelson is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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schtuff has been posted, just do a search. also combative on those threads.
Grommet,

I propose you be our official P.I. of the forum. See, you`ve scared the poor guy out
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  #36  
Old 09-12-2010, 09:42 AM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Interesting observation Cheese, what do you attribute the insufficient ego to? Many reasons or a single underlying theme? I wonder whether or not apathy has overtaken our youth sometimes.
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  #37  
Old 09-12-2010, 11:30 AM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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what do you attribute the insufficient ego to?
It may not be insufficient ego….

Jerry Saltz once said "Only one percent of one percent of one percent of all the artists out there make any money and for those it's usually only for a short period of time"

It may be that it's just not worth putting your family through the vows of poverty required to become a "known" artist.

On the other hand there are the "malignant narcissists", who by definition are all for his/her glorification. The art world is full of these and many are untalented. The irony here is that they don't know their not talented. If you critique their work they will in all likelihood think you are jealous of their special God given talents.

So it takes a unique person to put up with the posers while knowing there probably aren't going to be any financial rewards at the end.

G
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  #38  
Old 09-12-2010, 01:22 PM
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cheesepaws cheesepaws is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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It may not be insufficient ego….

It may be that it's just not worth putting your family through the vows of poverty required to become a "known" artist.

On the other hand there are the "malignant narcissists", who by definition are all for his/her glorification. The art world is full of these and many are untalented.

So it takes a unique person to put up with the posers while knowing there probably aren't going to be any financial rewards at the end.

G
I don’t believe in the art poser myth. Even so, you spell out precisely why it takes an ego of a particular resonance to mediate the varied sorts of success and failure that artists must embrace.
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  #39  
Old 09-12-2010, 04:12 PM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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I don’t believe in the art poser myth. Even so, you spell out precisely why it takes an ego of a particular resonance to mediate the varied sorts of success and failure that artists must embrace.

Even if they make it out of their 20's I agree it's not a huge deal but, what you seem to be describing has more to do with drive than ego. Maybe it takes a healthy ego not to give up or one that can recognize thier own strengths and weaknesses or even roll with the punches. What I see and it happens I took a class last semester and this one too is that students play it too safe, get comfortable and stay there instead of doing things that may expand their horizons. This one kid is doing the same series he did last semester and I'm thinking to myself, that's neat and all but ain't you sick of it yet?
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  #40  
Old 09-13-2010, 08:43 PM
grhb grhb is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

At least in sports people get too old to compete. In art too many queuing for entrance and too few willing to leave. Anyone for another Robert Indiana retrospective?

I listened to colvin at the RSA; sorry if the link was broken, i googled and pasted. He questions "natural" talent. Tiger Woods was his example of someone who is ascribed great talent, but whose ability he argues comes from great practice.Starting golf at 3yrs, practicing eight hours a day, colvin argues no one can catch up to him. He uses the same argument with Mozart.

I'm no prof, just enough post-mod theory to be dangerous and big authority issues.

Not back home/studio for another week--no sleep; built a stainless exhaust for a workboat and must finish out fabbing some aluminum contraption. Working off an ipad is limiting--small keyboard, no photoposting, great gps though.

Last edited by grhb : 09-13-2010 at 09:34 PM.
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  #41  
Old 09-13-2010, 08:52 PM
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GlennT GlennT is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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In art too many queuing for entrance and too few willing to leave.
Too few, too many, for what? Either you are creating good art or you aren't.
It isn't a closed system with limited space. Art is a vast frontier needing pioneers, trailblazers, scouts, trailmarkers, settlers, and the chuck wagon.
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  #42  
Old 09-13-2010, 09:25 PM
grhb grhb is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Joke, glennt. Of course, i can probably guess your age now and win the RR jellybeans...
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  #43  
Old 09-14-2010, 06:33 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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Joke, glennt. Of course, i can probably guess your age now and win the RR jellybeans...
i crack myself up too. in the end, that's all that matters.

...That and getting my finger to stay long enough on the shift key to make a capital... just for IMPACT.
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  #44  
Old 09-14-2010, 07:57 AM
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evaldart evaldart is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

The rigors of aesthetics pay NO attention to art world fashion. Art world fashion calls upon many OTHER kinds of rigors. The rigors of aesthetics only require that you show up for go time READY (this means well-fueled and durable).

Pose, practice and find your money WHEREVER...get your chills, thrills and spills WHEREVER...Shows, showing-offs, show-downs and show stoppers can happen WHEREVER; none of that matters when its time for the creative impulse to be engaged purely. You just gotta show up for your art, those rare moments that are the the only ones that make you authentic (all the other stuff, only makes you fake).

Speaking of working-off some functional trivialities,Snowflake is in the shop for diagnostics...they suspect she'll need a new tranny; my mechanic dont like sculpture, maybe he needs a fancy railing or bed..."stop-time" comprises 87.7% of our manic meanderings...we need our "talents" for that. Sheesh.
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  #45  
Old 09-14-2010, 04:11 PM
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chris 71 chris 71 is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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Originally Posted by grhb View Post
At least in sports people get too old to compete. In art too many queuing for entrance and too few willing to leave. Anyone for another Robert Indiana retrospective?

I listened to colvin at the RSA; sorry if the link was broken, i googled and pasted. He questions "natural" talent. Tiger Woods was his example of someone who is ascribed great talent, but whose ability he argues comes from great practice.Starting golf at 3yrs, practicing eight hours a day, colvin argues no one can catch up to him. He uses the same argument with Mozart.

.
i remember hearing that muhammad ali was learned, and didnt credit his skills to talent. but i would say he definatly had a gift, a special kind of spirit or drive or something a " talent " but in art there is no prof it can be more bogus there are lots of people with bogus "talent".
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  #46  
Old 09-14-2010, 06:50 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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Originally Posted by grhb View Post
He questions "natural" talent. Tiger Woods was his example of someone who is ascribed great talent, but whose ability he argues comes from great practice.Starting golf at 3yrs, practicing eight hours a day, colvin argues no one can catch up to him. He uses the same argument with Mozart.
I have been thinking about this topic of natural talent and as it pertains to contemporary art I think you may be right. I see a lot of art these days that
doesn't seem to require any advanced sort of visual acuity. I am thinking especially of conceptual art. This also goes for special skills, the stage is set for anything one wants to call "art" is art and the public will decide if it's good or not.
This doesn't mean individuals don't have genetic pre disposistions, they do, This reminds me of wine tasting…something I really enjoy. There are about 25% of the population who are "superetasters" 50% are average and the remaining 25% have a poor sense of taste. The term originates with experimental psychologist Linda Bartoshuk who has spent much of her career studying genetic variation in taste perception, in the early 1990s.
My point is that there is no way a supertaster can explain to a poor taster what they are tasting and there is no way a poor taster will ever become a supertaster no matter how much training they have…By comparison I think there are super visuals, those because of genetics "see" and process information better than others who aren't. Fortunately only the creation of certain types of art demand exacting attention to visual detail.

G
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  #47  
Old 09-14-2010, 08:25 PM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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Originally Posted by Giotto View Post
I have been thinking about this topic of natural talent and as it pertains to contemporary art I think you may be right. I see a lot of art these days that
doesn't seem to require any advanced sort of visual acuity. I am thinking especially of conceptual art. This also goes for special skills, the stage is set for anything one wants to call "art" is art and the public will decide if it's good or not.
This doesn't mean individuals don't have genetic pre disposistions, they do, This reminds me of wine tasting…something I really enjoy. There are about 25% of the population who are "superetasters" 50% are average and the remaining 25% have a poor sense of taste. The term originates with experimental psychologist Linda Bartoshuk who has spent much of her career studying genetic variation in taste perception, in the early 1990s.
My point is that there is no way a supertaster can explain to a poor taster what they are tasting and there is no way a poor taster will ever become a supertaster no matter how much training they have…By comparison I think there are super visuals, those because of genetics "see" and process information better than others who aren't. Fortunately only the creation of certain types of art demand exacting attention to visual detail.

G
Horseshit! G. Your "supertasters" are just weakened snobs and whatever it is they get drunk off of would be EXACTLY as tasty to anyone who wants to get drunk. What a unfitting comparison.

I do agree, though, that as sculptors we are best suited to be asserting ourselves athletically against our medium (rather than endlessly noodling with our fingers or little scraping chisels).

And I agree too about so many variations of "art" that (are NOT art) that exclude intense manual interaction. But you are simply referring to the "art world fashion" side of things that need not be in the dicussion.

It does not require any "talent" to challenge yourself, though. And so many "talented" folks are doing nothing for themselves because of their obvious propensity for doing things diminished and easy.

Giotto, where is your Laocoon? Are you still on the workbench, noodling away at a trophy? There is quite more to be had than that...and "talent" will NOT get you there.
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  #48  
Old 09-14-2010, 09:38 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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Horseshit! G. Your "supertasters" are just weakened snobs and whatever it is they get drunk off of would be EXACTLY as tasty to anyone who wants to get drunk. What a unfitting comparison.
My point was that taste (one of the senses) is subject to genetic pre disposition. I didn't want to do the research to come up with the other three (I posted a google link on vision) although I suspect they are the same. This is not a bad thing, it's what makes us individuals. Your not a wine taster are you ?


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It does not require any "talent" to challenge yourself, though. And so many "talented" folks are doing nothing for themselves because of their obvious propensity for doing things diminished and easy.
so you say, but I suspect cold climate people do challenge themselves as a genetic pre disposition…thus it's a talent...why are some of us driven and some not ? something to think about.


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Giotto, where is your Laocoon? Are you still on the workbench, noodling away at a trophy? There is quite more to be had than that...and "talent" will NOT get you there.
OK so I had to look that up
Laocoön (Λαοκόων [laoˈko.ɔːn], English: /leɪˈɒkɵ.ɒn/), the son of Acoetes[1] is a figure in Greek and Roman mythology, a Trojan priest of Poseidon[2](or Neptune), whose rules he had defied, either by marrying and having sons,[3] or by having committed an impiety by making love with his wife in the presence of a cult image in a sanctuary.[4

So since you ask a personal question I am noodleing away…3 months into my latest work. Do you have a problem with that ? As for it being a trophy, I don't think of my work that way. I think I will probably make one of these before I move on. You forget, Ev, I am a Romantic. I live for feelings and imagination...all of the things post modernists reject...my sculpture talks to me, does yours ?


G
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  #49  
Old 09-14-2010, 10:40 PM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

"Where is your Laocoon?" is a rhetorical question, of course Mack, regarding the willingness to attack an artistic endeavor of excessive trouble . Creative folk need self-administer ideas ( yes figures) of a wide range of scopes, scales, sizes, simply because different ideas call for different kinds of presences. Some of mine are Thousands and thousands of pounds and some are two-footers. All I'm saying is that "talent" is NOT the thing called upon for the 15 footers. There are other interior motivators and enablers altogether working on the big ones. Were I sitting back proud of my "talent" I definitely wouldnt go through the hell it takes to accomplish those big ones. There are SO many different kinds of experiences to be had from artmaking (from FIGURE making), why would anyone, talented or not, only bother with making everything small.

So I've done my Laocoons Mack - and will be doing more, as my body permits.
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  #50  
Old 09-15-2010, 09:52 AM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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"Where is your Laocoon?" is a rhetorical question, of course Mack, regarding the willingness to attack an artistic endeavor of excessive trouble . Creative folk need self-administer ideas ( yes figures) of a wide range of scopes, scales, sizes, simply because different ideas call for different kinds of presences. Some of mine are Thousands and thousands of pounds and some are two-footers. All I'm saying is that "talent" is NOT the thing called upon for the 15 footers. There are other interior motivators and enablers altogether working on the big ones. Were I sitting back proud of my "talent" I definitely wouldnt go through the hell it takes to accomplish those big ones. There are SO many different kinds of experiences to be had from artmaking (from FIGURE making), why would anyone, talented or not, only bother with making everything small.
Ev,
I couldn't agree with you more...I think what you are talking about is "Risk Taking " and this has nothing to do with talent. How much of your soul are you willing to put out there, How much danger can you handle, how thin is the line your willing to draw between success and failure, size, degree of difficulty, expense, time, all serious questions.....It's kind of like going to Vegas and putting it all on black.


G
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