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  #1  
Old 09-09-2010, 10:46 AM
grhb grhb is offline
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Is talent overrated?

There seems much discussion about art and ability in this forum. Many seem to swoon over the hands of the masters, their timeless works, their capturing of purities, strangelovian essences. I gather for many its about genius, natural abilities imbued by a creator, genes, whatever your personal trope is.

I'm wonder whether hard work might have something to do with it,

http://podcast.amanet.org/edgewise/i...-is-overrated/

and whether that effort includes intellectual development as well as artistic skills development.

I note a real anti-intellectualism on this board with many commenters insisting that to think about artwork as an artist--its historical context, its social, political meaning--is a heresy.

I'd offer that even canonical art today receives its "great" status because of its ability to communicate subtle intellectual meaning and not simply purity of form. I'd go further and say purity of form at this point is boorish and uninteresting,replicable by a good five-axis cnc machine.

Without ideas in art--the developed intellect--there is only tchochke.

Any thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 09-09-2010, 11:05 AM
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GlennT GlennT is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

I think you are on to something important, but I would not stop at the intellectual aspect. I think the spirtitual and emotional components, the intelligence of the artist, and their attunement with life all are important factors.

I know that some here have spoken about form as though it alone, despite anything the artist themselves brings to the table, is what we are responding to. I don't believe that, or like you say, a machine could do the job just as well if not better. An artwork communicates an idea or several ideas, and that is very important. But also, it communicates intangible elements of the soul who creates the work. The more depth of experience the soul has to offer, the more depth in the work is there for us to respond to.

This is not to dismiss talent, or the craftsmanship of the artist's work. To me, that is an important part of how sincere the artist is...do they want their work to benefit others, or just themselves? And, how much do they respect their art? Enough to work at overcoming self-limitations, so the art shows more of the pure idea and less of lazy sloppiness that gets in the way of its clear expression? This is different than "finish", which is a matter of one's personal touch.
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Old 09-09-2010, 12:20 PM
grhb grhb is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Glenn, Freudian slips aside (SpirTITual can speak pretty well to ancient and modern religious iconography) i'd agree soul does have its place with artists, if only because it is a well understood concept for a believing audience.

In that regard soul serves as a communicative glue, holding together meaning/ translations, a kind of faith in articles rather than an article of faith.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:06 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by grhb View Post
There seems much discussion about art and ability in this forum. Many seem to swoon over the hands of the masters, their timeless works, their capturing of purities, strangelovian essences. I gather for many its about genius, natural abilities imbued by a creator, genes, whatever your personal trope is.

I'm wonder whether hard work might have something to do with it, and whether that effort includes intellectual development as well as artistic skills development.
I don't know if this addresses your questions about genius.

The visual cortex represents about 30% of the brain. This varies from individual to individual.

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/17/8/2859

So some individuals are gifted with amazing ability to see. In the savants case there is one who can fly over times square go home and paint a exact replica. Around 10% of persons afflicted with autism display autistic savant abilities in art. I use the savant as an extreme example of a continuum that goes from someone who can't find their car keys in front of them to those who can process huge amounts of visual information in a heartbeat.

http://www.google.com/images?client=...w=1433&bih=904
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/BOY+BR.....-a0108155910

Creativity, Intellectual development, artistic training, emotional awareness, empathy, hard work and discipline are all important and only add to whatever natural ability you have. So when we talk about geniuses we are talking about natural ability only as a starting place.

Curiously those who have this ability know they have it, those who don't have it don't know they don't have it.



G
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  #5  
Old 09-09-2010, 01:41 PM
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evaldart evaldart is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Talent, soul, craftsmanship, communication...those and many other "qualities" that folks would attest can bring about art - simply do no such thing. They are words used affectionately by purveyors of a "product" attached to the busywork of civilization reaching to functionalize everything (and keep you quite distracted from anything of worth).

Dont worry GR, the CNC machines are making more stuff everyday, and more and more of it is getting called art. But but THAT aint no pathway to intellectual development either.

Gotta work HARD indeed for that...and you gotta do it yourself, and you gotta challenge your thresholds, you gotta have a real relationship with your chosen material and to that immediate "place" around it. You gotta force the thoughts to be palpable and atomize the matter til it is ghostly enough to haze with your notion.

Form has everything to do with presence: the content of all art. All "subjects" are just clever (and not so clever) ways to get there.

The subjective predicament is where it begins, and with fortitude, one eventually learns to enter into a subjective bondage (a detaching only sustainable for short bursts). Only by concocting for yourself outlandish interpretations of culture will it (said culture) ever help. Yet they have good food there (in civilization) and fun stuff too...but they're a savage lot, so lookout.

I hear there are penal colonies with CNC tech even...no surprise.

Last edited by evaldart : 09-09-2010 at 04:22 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-09-2010, 01:46 PM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post

Form has everything to do with presence: the content of all art. All "subjects" are just clever (and not so clever) ways to get there.

Communicating an idea (subject?) has everything to do with presence: the content of all art. Manipulating form is just a clever or not so clever way to get there.
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Old 09-09-2010, 02:08 PM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

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Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
Communicating an idea (subject?) has everything to do with presence: the content of all art. Manipulating form is just a clever or not so clever way to get there.
Aint our wonderful human maximum subjectivity great!
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  #8  
Old 09-09-2010, 03:33 PM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

I'm reminded of one of my own made-up favorite quotes:

"I'm not contentious-you are!"
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  #9  
Old 09-10-2010, 12:45 AM
ironman ironman is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

form, and or subject matter come first. the ability and hard work of the artist to communicate that form/subject matter is what gives the work "presence".

yes Giotto, your last sentence is correct, "those that have this ability know they have it and those who don't have it don't know they don't have it."
it's another way of saying, people don't know that they don't know!
there's a great study called, "unskilled and unaware of it: how difficulties in recognizing one's own incompetence leads to inflated self assessments."
it's by justin kruger and david dunning of cornell university.
it seems that the least intelligent amongst us have more of a tendency to overrate their abilities and the more intelligent tend to underrate their abilities.
of course, i could be totally wrong about that!
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  #10  
Old 09-10-2010, 06:44 AM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

"Intelligence" as the eggheads refer to it as a measurable "quotient" is not even a remotely useful method of evaluating ones level of self-awareness; which is an individual's most applicable priority in the continued improving of oneself. Hell, these days ones Googling ability will quite pass for "intelligence" amongst the gullible readership of todays modes of communication.

So you see, communicated intelligence is phony intelligence. It can be affected, acted, "tuned", toned and quite mimicked - all in the name of of being a bigger fish in the little pond (and the small mind) of culture.

For instance, these days the mere ability to cite links is asserted to add to an "intelligent" dialogue. Got to look to generate and identify ORIGINAL THOUGHT....THEN exchange between folks can be worthy. THEN abilities can be assessed; cause it wont be evident by the drudgerous pursuit of the ideals and standards, the shoddy groundwork, already laid by the "talented" and the "intelligent" that get gushed-over by the gullible. Thats all.
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  #11  
Old 09-10-2010, 09:32 AM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Quote:
Got to look to generate and identify ORIGINAL THOUGHT....THEN exchange between folks can be worthy...Thats all.
Candida Smith, writing about her dad, David: "There was little room to identify himself in terms of other people. And so he felt lonesome."
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  #12  
Old 09-10-2010, 10:04 AM
grhb grhb is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

giotto--I read thru the VC piece. I'd say that study deserves top billing in the "does size matter?" discussion. The point of variation among humans is well taken and the study notes the historically perilous subject matter. The standard sociological model establishing humans as born with blank slates--complete with well-tailored science--has been the class bully for nearly a century.

That said, I guess I question whether the savant-like geniuses among us, well reported in media, are the exception not the rule. if you get a chance listen to the argument put forward in Colvin's audio presentation.

E and Glenn-- Your inspirational arguments are converging from opposite points of the spectrum: one humanistic the other religio-christian, sort of same church, different entrances. Is this intended?

E, the flamethrower posting is mildly entertaining probably because of the revelations regarding your version of self-awareness, which smells distinctly of narcisism. Its got all the trappings of the psuedo-scientific, complete with the make-believe binaries of real versus phony, worthy/unworthy, original/unoriginal. You have made a religion complete with hardened ideology about concepts the rest of the art world still considers in play.

I have consistently maintained the art-philosophy of purities of line and form are dangerous because it requires arbiters, judgers who can use their view to exclude, undermine, belittle, reduce, destroy. You make my point quite well in the analgous assessment of your phony intelligence and its sibling unworthy communication.

Yours is a rather black helicopter view of intelligence--that its all about showmanship, and posturing, and not the ideas. Maybe thats the conventional conspiracy among a jack-booted art set, but my "smart" friends actually enjoy making things, discussing ideas, rethinking norms. The result for them is a file drawer full of patents, designs, paintings, sculptures.

The whole google thing I find a weird little canard. If someone wants to search up George Stubbs and discuss horse painting, so what? If they pass themselves off as an expert with five minutes on Wikipedia who cares? As shocking as be to many war weary know-it-alls, some pimply 14-year old kid might actually have something to say about the unrealistic fetlocks on a Derby racer. Of course there is the library, the old fashioned place where information is hard won. Of course that was the last epochs technology, which leveled the playing field and made the enlightenment possible.
I suppose you're right E, we wouldn't want to make information easily accessible lest everyone become an expert!

To end this too-long post: E, You indict phony intelligence, maybe you will identify what the real version looks like? Does it include PhDs and battle scars, maybe a few ascetic years contemplating the most captivating subjects--Self?
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:33 AM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

grbh. Your posts here sound like an indictment. The crime is not being up to your intellectual levels. It sounds too like you're itching to flex your purported cranial muscles. So, say something interesting and we'll have a go. So far, all you've done is tout by setting up straw arguments with you the default winner.
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:50 AM
grhb grhb is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

joe, is this some sort of bizarre mate rating/defending? are you referring to me, or Eval? who is making indictments here?

and what's the straw argument and the winner of what?

i've proposed that intelligence in art is a little under siege in this forum, that personal tastes and hardened views about what constitutes high art could be rethought. Ive posted a couple of links from schama, and colvin thought people might want to talk about it.

If that's not enough substance for you, then don't respond.

As for indictments made on this fourm, as the french say, joe, sweep your own porch.
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Old 09-10-2010, 11:15 AM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Quote:
and what's the straw argument and the winner of what?

i've proposed that intelligence in art is a little under siege in this forum,
Bingo, the straw man is outed, and it turns out he is made of b.s..


Quote:
Ive posted a couple of links from schama, and colvin thought people might want to talk about it.

If that's not enough substance for you, then don't respond.
Why don't you say something instead of hiding behind someone's intellectual skirts.

Schama is one of my favorites. Why rehash his ideas. I don't think anyone can re-express them usefully.

Geoff Colvin ("a longtime editor and columnist for Fortune Magazine, he has become one of America’s sharpest and most respected commentators on leadership and management, globalization, shareholder value creation, the environmental imperative, and related issues.

Geoff is heard daily across America on the CBS Radio Network, where he reaches 7 million listeners a week and has made more than 10,000 broadcasts. As anchor of Wall Street Week with Fortune on PBS for three years, he spoke each week to the largest audience reached by any business television program in America.").

Seriously??? You offer a purveyor of media feeds as your original contribution. Ah, maybe we have to step back and talk about "original" . I guess Eval tried that but that got shot down because as Giotto said:
Quote:
Curiously those who have this ability know they have it, those who don't have it don't know they don't have it.
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Old 09-10-2010, 11:27 AM
grhb grhb is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

joe, You've done an excellent job of refining anti-intellectualism on the forum; now can you piss somewhere else?

Nobody owns sources for information or presents them as original. They are sources and while it might please if I quoted from an unknown art quarterly, alas i let my subscription lapse. I must say you've done a fine job of googling the names though. Now, take a deep breath and relax......

btw i like E and have a good time scrapping on ideas. I don't think he needs your ad hominym(sic) defense.


giotto--on the visual cortex thing: margeret livingstone had an interesting podcast at the hirschhorn website: http://hirshhorn.si.edu/dynamic/podc...odcast_235.m4a
pretty cool stuff for us mainstream google geniuses

Last edited by grhb : 09-10-2010 at 12:47 PM.
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  #17  
Old 09-10-2010, 11:36 AM
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GlennT GlennT is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

These definitions ( my own) might help this discussion a bit:

Intellect: a tool to be used for good or not.

Knowledge: Information assimilated.

Intelligence: Knowledge fortified by wisdom, and perception fortified by both.

Wisdom: Learning and processing from ones own experiences and that of others. Depth of wisdom commensurate with depth of resources from which it has been drawn, as well as the ability to perceive connections, relationships, and derrive lessons to be learned from among the experiences.

Last edited by GlennT : 09-10-2010 at 05:14 PM.
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  #18  
Old 09-10-2010, 12:29 PM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Talent doesn't actually exist so it can neither be over or under rated.

What does exist is practice and more practice or in other words, do and do more.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:40 PM
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evaldart evaldart is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Quote:
I guess Eval tried that but that got shot down because as Giotto said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
Talent doesn't actually exist so it can neither be over or under rated.

What does exist is practice and more practice or in other words, do and do more.
Dont worry Joe, I aint shot down. I'm flyin' like a Narcissian fireball aimed with delight (not despair) at the rush of approaching dirt.

Were I capable of fewer rather than MORE words I would have said it like that Steve. Nice.

GH, there is no general forum-based notion ever in-flow here. We oppose each other and join each other constantly and without rhythm or tendency. Your "proposition" that folks here are against intelligence in art is simply wrong or made-up by you to breach an intellectual avenue. Believe me, you dont need to accuse the lot of us of anything to get the dialogue going.

Fact is, everyone here is quite shockingly different, just like the individuals in your world. "Narcissism" is juvenile name-calling. when a thinned group pecieves an individual actually making something of his detachment (we are all irrepairably detached from one another, sorry) they accuse him/her of narcissism; as a slight. Nasty behavior. Because it is exactly the product of internal asides that bring about the most valuable effectivenesses. "Share" your banana, yes indeed, thats being a nice human; but you neednt share the rarity that is your experience with envigored consciousness. That simply GETS shared - by the power of its overspill - without being handed out (and ingraciously begging the "thank you"). No, being "better" at individuality posesses the side effect of bettering everyone...eventually.

BTW, I am glad that you brought this up...as it dovetails nicely with so much of the other blather that we entertain.

Last edited by evaldart : 09-10-2010 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 09-10-2010, 05:19 PM
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GlennT GlennT is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Talent is not overrated, but lack of talent certainly is.
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  #21  
Old 09-10-2010, 05:52 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
Talent doesn't actually exist so it can neither be over or under rated.

What does exist is practice and more practice or in other words, do and do more.
Steve,
I am not sure how your defining talent so this may not apply but what I think we are talking about is the old argument of nature vs. nurture. Fast-growing understanding of the human genome has recently made it clear that both sides are right. Nature endows us with inborn abilities and traits; nurture takes these genetic tendencies and molds them as we learn and mature. I totally agree with your second sentence. There is no doubt that being driven by some inner passion to create and refine art is an essential ingredient in the creation of great art….but is this obsessive compulsive behavior inherited ? :>)


G
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:08 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

grhb- i think we most enjoy the kicking things around activity. Sometimes interesting things scurry out. It isn't always from an entrenched position, but more like a circus act where more risk is more entertaining.
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:34 PM
grhb grhb is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

E,
The forum: I recognize everyone as individuals and as a group. To argue that there is no general sway established within the group and by the most prolific posters I think is unrealistic--joe's rescue rant certainly clarifies that.
(okay, so i read thru a few posts...maybe you guys are just a bunch of asshole cats that can't be herded)

There is a great deal of "tell it like it is" criticism of contemporary artists and forum art. That's great. The problem is what happens if it "isn't like ya tell?" There seems to be a lot of sureness about critiques. Life aint that sure.

Look at your statements for a moment: there is no forum based notion ever.../we oppose and join eachother...without rhythm, it's like the proclamation of Rex, monolithic, immoveable. (You sound like an art marine USAMC, anvil piercing a globe).

As for narcissism/self-improvement as name-calling, E I'd rather not see your sensitive side, you know, like discovering you buy the burger king kids meals for the toys sorta thing. You are name-caller in-chief.

Eggheads, E? Scribblers? Google intelligence..phoney intelligence that's juvenile name-calling. Narcisissism is a critique of an artistic philosophy that establishes the Artist and his creation as singular-- audience unimportant. This opposed to an artistic theory that treats communication with his audience as paramount.

oh yeah, and piss on Joe,again.

SteveW-- yes, no talent, that's the gist of what i got from Colvin's piece-- no such thing as talent, just hard work. I don't know that i am convinced by the argument, especially now that i know colvin's just another dirt merchant, but its an interesting claim.

Giotto, sure nature/nurture is a similar debate. I relistened to the livingstone broadcast while fetching another bottle of argon at the store and thought it added to the debate, especially the fact that the visual cortex is a data processing center and not an image processing center and that data gets corrupted. really cool.

Last edited by grhb : 09-10-2010 at 08:11 PM.
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  #24  
Old 09-10-2010, 08:34 PM
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Re: Is talent overrated?

Hah, it figures...you were getting just argon.

Oh, and regarding the name calling, you forgot my favorite , ANTS! when I take a poke at faceless masses and massless intelligenstia I am not aiming at anyone. Because I speak to individuals. The collectives often require sardonic team-names to differentiate them in the grand fumbling and folly contest we all call civilization. I'm a member of many of such comedic casts, but 12.3% of the time I'm not.

If you knew me better you'd know, though, that I would NOT be enlisted (in the art marines).

Last edited by evaldart : 09-10-2010 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:39 PM
Nelson Nelson is offline
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Re: Is talent overrated?

JRHB,

I don`t see much wrong with narcisissim, except that it may bother humble people, and us the conceded as well
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