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  #26  
Old 05-16-2010, 10:03 AM
jim collins jim collins is offline
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

OK, I want in this one.

Let us stop with the, "my pile of industrial waste is better than your natural stone". Historically, sculpture has been mostly the carving of figures in stone and wood, producing three-dimensional forms with mass and volume. This type of sculpture presented in space gives one the traditional mass-space relationship, both visual and tactile.

In 1920 Naum Gabo published the REALISTIC MANIFESTO calling for the use of new materials for the creation of works concerned with space, time, and movement rather than mass and volume. Gabo used translucent plastic and metal wire to organize space while attempting the denial of mass.

In the mid-1960's Claes Oldenburg, used skilled grave-diggers to dig a six feet square hole in the ground of Central Park (by commission). After the hole was finished it was filled again with the removed soil, thus providing a complete denial of space in the form of a six-foot cube of disturbed soil within the mass of the undisturbed earth. This sculpture was neither visual nor tactile, but a mass-mass relationship. It is still there, you can't see it but the sculpture is still there under Central Park.

Several years ago this thinking started me to consider a new approach to thinking about sculpture and the mass-space relationship. So, I set about making a few large devices to produce sculpture. The sculpture produced was in the form of turbulent air, driven by controlled fans into normal environmental atmosphere. The sculpture produced was completely tactile with all visual elements denied. The sculpture perceived by feeling the shape of the turbulent air forming in atmosphere. AIR IN AIR. A truly space-space relationship.
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  #27  
Old 05-16-2010, 10:55 AM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Quote:
Let us stop with the, "my pile of industrial waste is better than your natural stone"...AIR IN AIR. A truly space-space relationship.
Great. We can do without the "better" judgments. But at some point you will need to justify your project as more than just "hot air" if you want to do an installation, get funding, whatever. I'd be interested in reading the "statement" that explains the endeavor. Why should folks pay attention to your fan, versus a breeze?
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  #28  
Old 05-16-2010, 01:05 PM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Why should folks pay attention to your fan, versus a breeze?
Because that's what we do in the age of stupidity.
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  #29  
Old 05-16-2010, 01:39 PM
jim collins jim collins is offline
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Great. We can do without the "better" judgments. But at some point you will need to justify your project as more than just "hot air" if you want to do an installation, get funding, whatever. I'd be interested in reading the "statement" that explains the endeavor. Why should folks pay attention to your fan, versus a breeze?

Joe, mainly I was referring to thinking of the basics of sculpture, rather than installations (the place that theater folks come to play sculptor). You know piling up a bunch of garbage and trash in a nice, clean, white, Public Supported Gallery or Court House. One does not have to have "justification" and "funding" to make art.

You missed the point, Joe. That was the statement. Folks are not to pay attention to "your fan". They are to think about the line and form that is shaped when mechanically produced air flow, either hot or cold, as its makes way through regular atmosphere. The total denial of mass while forming a three dimensional object. A breeze, simply blows against the next breeze or into stillness.

One more point: Isn't art about control? How do you propose to make meaningful art with justification and funding and no artist control?
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  #30  
Old 05-16-2010, 02:05 PM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

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One more point: Isn't art about control? How do you propose to make meaningful art with justification and funding and no artist control?
I have been an artist for a reasonable period of time, but I don't recall the phrase "art is about control" having come up in any learning or discussions. I do believe it is important for an artist to get good training and do a lot of work to develop skills so that they can control the results of their efforts rather than being overcome by limitations. That seems a different issue however than learning the skills to dig a hole in the ground and fill it back up again, or arrange a room with air movement.

Interested in your idea of determining what is "meaningful art", and how that relates to "justification", and "funding".
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  #31  
Old 05-16-2010, 02:31 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

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Because that's what we do in the age of stupidity.
well if that's how you want to live your life.... sounds ulcer producing.

Jim Collins- Sounds like an installation I'd like to experience, the manipulated buffeting that gives you more than the clandestine hand out the window while driving.
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  #32  
Old 05-16-2010, 02:31 PM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

I'm all for wind art or a wind experience, it might allow the brain matter to expand.

I do wonder if those breeze goers felt the air like the creator did?
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  #33  
Old 05-16-2010, 04:25 PM
jim collins jim collins is offline
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

[quote=GlennT;90602]I have been an artist for a reasonable period of time, but I don't recall the phrase "art is about control" having come up in any learning or discussions. Glenn,

Almost everything in the physical world is about control. Controlling oil in water, controlling communities with neighborhoods and laws. In art: the control pigments in painting a landscape, carving stone into the form of a horse or human, or abstract form, our bodies in dance, our fingers in making sounds, etc. Farmers control the soil and insects food. We learn skills to work so that we can better control the media that we have selected. An artist doing a bronze portrait has to have many skills to insure the final product is his art and not the combination of several artisans along the way.

At many times in art history there have been artist who 's ideas have been far greater than their individual skills or desires. Oldenburg didn't dig the holes himself. He had skilled grave diggers do the job for him so that it would be a more perfect 6X6X6 cube in the ground. The concept was his and in turn the art statement was his. Actually, I have never heard or read anyplace that this or anything else was a MASS-MASS relationship, but that is what it is. You know about this art project only because you read it here. Nature can make some beautiful holes an d things and we all seen them. But that is not what I am talking about. I am writing here to cause one to think in relation to what is possible without making more Mass-space relationships over and over again. As to a room full of controlled air. I couldn't control the air to my satisfaction, so I stopped trying, but it still is the only SPACE-SPACE relationship I think possible.

Not every art-object that mimics art--- IS ART. Surely, everything I make is not ART, but sometimes I know it is and that is what is important.
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  #34  
Old 05-16-2010, 06:09 PM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

The aspects that you mention in regards to the word "control" are not what makes anything ART, it takes something more than that. For example, I would be more inclined to say art is about "Love" than about "control", if we were to try to narrow things down to an "art is about..." phrase. Reason being that it is the quality of heart with which one embues their creative effort that can transform something beyond the common into the realm of art.

However, I don't think there is a single word or even small group of them that can define art as being this or that, and certainly not "control". Nor does "mass-mass relationship" or "mass-space relationship" tell me anything about art. These are just mental linguistic concepts. Something to talk about when not actually creating ART.

Meanwhile, since it seems this thread was intended for the posting of sculpture photos, here is another one that I like:
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  #35  
Old 05-16-2010, 08:18 PM
jim collins jim collins is offline
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

OOOPS, Glenn,

I did not want to say control is art. But, one must have control to make art. Love? Are you saying love is art? The two seem to go together in my world. Control by love of wife, children, country, church, and art to mention a few. Some collectors love art. Some artist fall in love and stop making art to spend more time with their lover. Have you ever heard anyone say while looking at a lovely sunset? "That sunset is a pretty as a painting and fills ones heart with joy to see such a sight."

What they are saying is, "Nature is the great imitator of art." The landscape was here before there were artists. I would guess the same people would say on a visit to the local museum, "look at that painting it seems as if you could walk right into it." Painting many times only gives the illusion of space on a 2-D surface. That is if the painter has control of their materials and skills. The traditional mass-space relationship has everything to do with sculpture. How can anyone who makes sculpture not realize they are organizing space by the introduction of mass or some kind or...get ready...control. I know this and don't have to think about it while making sculpture.
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  #36  
Old 05-16-2010, 08:40 PM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

The implication of "control" is over-belabored here. The fact that we assert ourselves against matter/material is a consequence of addressing reality. There is no control ever...there is only strife. and strife is action...strife and labor and dynamics and the spreading-about of forces is all we do...EVER. BUT...we are al permitted the chance, by virtue of the anomaly that is our consciousness, to do MORE advance that strife and make it worthwhile instead of just sustaining. That is where Art comes from. It doesnt come from any essays written by eggheads about avante-gardists involving themselves (and innocent others) in charades.

Oldenberg was not being an artist with the digging thing...he was making sardonic social commentary - which is sad, shallow and disheartening mostly. That is why REAL art is so important. If you cant get past art history and your own primitive culture and boil-down a pertinent relationship with reality you'll only find yourself lost amongst the justifications of verbose masses - channeling the "contemporary" for the sake of everyone but you.
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  #37  
Old 05-17-2010, 08:32 AM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

This third century marble from Asia Minor is most unusual. Were it done today I wonder what the reception would be? http://www.artknowledgenews.com/2010...llections.html
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  #38  
Old 05-17-2010, 08:38 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

You know. Context is everything.
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  #39  
Old 05-17-2010, 08:43 AM
jim collins jim collins is offline
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Oldenberg was not being an artist with the digging thing...he was making sardonic social commentary

Evaldart,

You are very astute with your observation. Hell, he was doing it for the money, remember he did it by commission for New York City (then the Art Capital of the World). After all it was POP ART after all. What I felt was that in spite of the reason for the activity, what happened was the first MAS-MASS relationship of sculpture actually done as a work of art. I do not think Oldenberg had this in mind when he conceived the idea.

I agree with you, control is not what art is all about. However, I find it interesting that a sculptor who uses the technique of "man's control of fire and steel" approach, counter to his writing. Just look at your postings and your link photo. Your bending of resisting, recycled metal, into submitting ribbons around antique industrial castoffs, and other work that appears to get it value by weighing as much as a small European car is your control. Others determine if it is art. I enjoy some of the things you post for the their form and arrangement in space.

I enjoy all attempts at art: historical, folk, traditional, almost everything except I am really weary of those little bronze children you see all over the place, in towns and malls.
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  #40  
Old 05-17-2010, 08:51 AM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

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I am really weary of those little bronze children you see all over the place, in towns and malls.
They are creepy. Must be Steven Kings' doing.
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  #41  
Old 05-17-2010, 09:01 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

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They are creepy. Must be Steven Kings' doing.
more like the angels from Dr. Who
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  #42  
Old 05-17-2010, 09:11 AM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

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Originally Posted by jim collins View Post
Oldenberg was not being an artist with the digging thing...he was making sardonic social commentary

Evaldart,

However, I find it interesting that a sculptor who uses the technique of "man's control of fire and steel" approach, counter to his writing. Just look at your postings and your link photo. Your bending of resisting, recycled metal, into submitting ribbons around antique industrial castoffs, and other work that appears to get it value by weighing as much as a small European car is your control. Others determine if it is art. I enjoy some of the things you post for the their form and arrangement in space.

I enjoy all attempts at art: historical, folk, traditional, almost everything except I am really weary of those little bronze children you see all over the place, in towns and malls.
While it might seem that I am asserting control by my "arranging" of masses and by my aggressive engagement in process, I am actually only "RE-arranging" in accordance with the whims of my compositional sensibility. Believe me, it never feels like "control". There was never any control even before I got there. Nature is dumb and oblivious...far from having a clue about controlling anything. Conditions exist and events occur - an artist wrestles with having a say in his own perception, non-artists DONT wrestle with that (being distracted and preoccupied in servitude to conditions and events). Having a say in your perception is the best-case scenario...the hope for us-all lies is in the plague-like spreading of this; sellers of cures abound - mine comes often between sesame-seed buns or in a very tall can.

Every real artist is contributing immenesly to the ever-widening range of what is possible with Art. It is connected to the absolute uniqueness of the individual. Culture-grubbers, though, mostly cannot recognize and identify major variations between artworks. They require the obviously outlandish or pretensiously contrary to fix their limited attention. And then they write about it and sell it as a "new" thing. When it is actually a NO-thing.

This is not to say that Oldenberg and his ilk were not artists; just thay they succumbed to the celebrity and made plenty of things that were not art at all.
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  #43  
Old 05-17-2010, 09:20 AM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

regarding little bronzy children. I can NEVER get enough of the De Creeft grouping in Central Park - The Alice in Wonderland multitude. It is a great example of how a composition should be undertaken when narrative, facial expression and even gesture take a back seat to the formal issues of figurative composition. this is such an intimidating thing to address that you'll note that only a few figure sculptors have the nerve. Addressing this formal conundrum is something I hope to be "mature" enough to handle someday.
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  #44  
Old 05-17-2010, 10:32 AM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

www.widenfalk.com/galleri/galleri_01.html

great work in granite and a very modern concept when it comes to display. I think his work should appeal to quite a few of you.
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  #45  
Old 05-17-2010, 01:51 PM
jim collins jim collins is offline
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

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Nature is dumb and oblivious...far from having a clue about controlling anything.
Evaldart,
Now, come on. You must be kidding with a statement like that. Nature is why we are here, why you have anything to work with, and how your iron is made and fire, to bend that metal. OOPS, you really didn't mean that, did you. Look around the earth and see that nature is in control. The problem is nature is not always being controlled by man. As an example: nature is eating away at the very sculpture that you make...rust. In time nature will reclaim it, but you did have the joy of, "...actually only "RE-arranging" in accordance with the whims of my compositional sensibility".
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  #46  
Old 05-17-2010, 02:37 PM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

So am I supposed to anthropomorphosize this thing and respect it?. This condition, this place, this "greater" to my own "smaller". Hardly. Nature is fortunate for the unfathomable occurrence of each of us flopping into our possessions of self-consciousness. Otherwise it would be totally unregarded - which, to a dolt, is worse even than being ignored or despised. Then there would be no dupes, suckers and kneelers to give it presence. No, Nature depends 100% upon my attention; cause without THAT it is nothing. It depends exactly as much upon YOUR attention too (and Glenns and Nelsons and everyone else's - one at a time). It cant make any rules, this Nature, cause it cant tell the difference between anything that happens. It simply "IS". And this "is" is a condition to be surpassed. Some humans surpass it; and some stay in servitude to a pet rock floating about in space. And thats a damned shame.

There is no way to communicate all this without the employment of some verbal compositional sensibility. So your intuitive interpretation will be the correct one.

Sunsets are beautiful because I let them be. And volcanoes are disasters IF I let them be. see?
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  #47  
Old 05-17-2010, 03:55 PM
jim collins jim collins is offline
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Well, excuse me! Seems I didn't bow down to your all important, SELF-BUTTON. Tell me Vulcan how does one surpass nature? Let me rephrase that question. What the hell are you ranting about now? Sunsets and volcanoes have nothing to do with my original presentation: Mass-space, Space-space, and Mass-mass relationships. Seems the comments and responses drift at this site. Maybe, you all find it comforting to deal only with the subjective and technique of sculpture rather than letting the minds take on some objective, intuitive and rational thinking. You know just like a real humanistic artist.
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  #48  
Old 05-17-2010, 04:22 PM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

Its really strange how all this weird stuff and babble comes out when I try to focus on sculpture. Is sculpture that radical of a concept? Does it really tickle all those bizarre thoughts into the cyber-space of this forum. If it does, maybe Eval is right and sculpture is the "king" of the arts(whatever art is).
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  #49  
Old 05-17-2010, 05:06 PM
jim collins jim collins is offline
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

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If it does, maybe Eval is right and sculpture is the "king" of the arts(whatever art is).
My point was to get some feedback on the real question "WHATEVER SCULPTURE IS"
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  #50  
Old 05-17-2010, 05:29 PM
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Re: Awesome Sculpture du Jour

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My point was to get some feedback on the real question "WHATEVER SCULPTURE IS"
You will never get an answer, it' up to you to make the call.
We can because we can.
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