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  #101  
Old 02-13-2009, 09:06 AM
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LimeCutter LimeCutter is offline
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

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Originally Posted by Portoro View Post
Limecutter quoted Portoro:
Says who...you or the artist? -Limecutter

You mean to say, he keeps it all going even in the warehouse? The supply of dead cow's heads, the flies, the cleaning up, the health risk - to what end?
The reason I asked the question were my thoughts that there must be some defined point at which something becomes art. I was in the Tate St Ives this year and saw an exhibition by an artist I believe called Chodsko. It was a conceptual installation is suppose. He had collected racks of second hand clothes and filmed people taking them away. The conceptual part was the metaphor of drops of colour spreading out - only this was coloured items of clothing spreading out into the context of the wider world. I resented the fact that this all had to be explained otherwise it resembled a busy day at a charity shop. It was pointed out by the gallery guided tour that it is the fact that the artist chose to place the objects within the context of a gallery that allowed the definition of art. Yet the piece was about dispersal and without the items being taken away the concept was floored.

This led me to think, well why should art be defined within the artificial context of a gallery or an exhibition or a defined space. Why can't i just go out and point at something and say - that's art.

You may well think this a preposterous idea, but I believe it's only the fine line between 'art' and 'not art' that we seem to have accepted in todays culture.

I have to say that I was very disillussioned by the exhibition.

Talking of which: here's a recent article on the state of modern Britsh art.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle5670577.ece

Last edited by LimeCutter : 02-13-2009 at 09:19 AM.
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  #102  
Old 02-13-2009, 09:23 AM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

http://americanart.si.edu/eyelevel/images/friedman.jpg

Tom Friedman, another "offender". This one is a nothing. But he does make some really strnge free-standing stuff that qualifies as a "something".
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  #103  
Old 02-13-2009, 09:29 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

My favourite would be that light installation in the Tate, where the light goes on and off, showing only the gallery space itself. What happens to that installation when its not installed?
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  #104  
Old 02-13-2009, 10:30 AM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

With apologies in advance for repeating myself, and my thanks to Ries for being a good sport, I thought I did a decent job of nailing the installation art phenomena in this post from last year:

Ries: Glenn, check out this Framplegarp installation. This guy really knows how to manipulate space and skew the viewer's perceptions...

Glenn: Ries, all I see is an empty room.

Ries: You're letting your preconceptions limit the experience.

Glenn: What about this sign? It says; " Walker room # 35. Framplegarp exhibit here, May thru August, 2008 " It's only April.

Ries: See, what a master, that Framplegarp! He's already doing it with the sign!

pause

Glenn: Ries, I just checked with the security guard. He says that the room has been emptied so they can install the Framplegarp exhibit next week.

Ries: Hah! the security guard is part of the installation. What genius!

Glenn: Okay, I think I'm getting the picture. Ries, look over there. Now that's an installation I can understand.

Ries: That's not an installation, thats the Walker's food concession.

Glenn: How can that be? That's not food, it's a bunch of croissants with enough brie and lettuce to feed half a mouse! For $10 a pop!

( Fade to Glenn going towards the Institute of Arts to get some real food and real art, leaving Ries in an estatic trance of sensory overload, having encountered too many of the Walker's heros and masterworks all in one building )
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  #105  
Old 02-13-2009, 10:48 AM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

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Originally Posted by LimeCutter View Post
Why can't i just go out and point at something and say - that's art.
You can. Likewise you can walk into a gallery and point and declare - that is NOT art.

Of course you know there is more to making or breaking art than pointing and shouting...right?
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  #106  
Old 02-13-2009, 11:54 AM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

Glenn, keep posting that- every time you do, the value of all those Framplegarps in my collection keeps going up.
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  #107  
Old 02-13-2009, 12:15 PM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

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Originally Posted by Ries View Post
Glenn, keep posting that- every time you do, the value of all those Framplegarps in my collection keeps going up.
Thanks for the big laugh!!!

Unfortunately for me, my house is too cluttered to keep any Framplegarp installations here.
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  #108  
Old 02-13-2009, 02:12 PM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

That was funny Glenn and Reis

I am sitting at home with tonselitis - feeling very unproductive and spending too much time on this fourm.

Don't worry - it wont last
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  #109  
Old 02-14-2009, 12:06 PM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

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I have never heard Hirst referred to as a genius. He is exceptionally popular - perhaps for producing work that is both controversial and shocking to a general population and engaging (for various reasons) to the art community.....

What makes you think Hirst has rejected his formal training? Personally, I find he wears his academic training on his sleeve.....
Well, I may not have a sufficient answer for this and I apologize in advance if this is the best I can manage. As Joe wisely points out; what person wishes to devalue the efforts of another? Certainly not I and I do not wish to be seen as a killjoy nor overly critical of Hirst or anyone else for that matter... I must insist though, from my own perspective that if there is one inevitable self-deception by which human beings are led astray it is that of popularity. It can just as easily be said that anyone wears their talent on their sleeve who is a performer, artist, musician, poet, actor or politician. In the end, the celebration of shocking works and provocative demonstrations such as this amounts to little more than pop-entertainment. The likes of Michael Jackson wildly gesticulating on stage and grabbing his crotch. Somehow I doubt he was taught that in ballet class.
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  #110  
Old 02-14-2009, 12:25 PM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

Actually, I used to live across the street from Micheal Jackson's dance teacher, and I never once saw her grab her crotch- I think he made that one up all on his own, or, more likely, stole the idea from some street kid.

But this raises an interesting question.

Is Popularity, in and of itself, suspect?

I happen to find some popular stuff completely uninteresting- M. Night Shyamalan movies, Billy Joel, McDonalds Burgers, Diet Pepsi, Chevy Suburbans, and Organized Religion, just to name a few.

And yet, I find actual talent, interest, or taste, in some other things that are popular.

Cant I define my own set of tastes, that which appeals to me somehow, and have it include some things that other people like, without being some sort of sheeple?

Frankly, in the art world, the very idea of "popularity" is kind of silly- in that virtually nobody cares about art, any art, in the greater world. The number of people, worldwide, who can tell you who Damien Hirst is, has gotta be WAAY below .01 percent.
The biggest Art Magazine in the USA has a circulation well below Dog Fancier, RC Modelling, or Guns and Ammo, and even if you combined all the art mags together, I doubt you could get near Popular Mechanics or Teen Vogue.

There are a very very few people in the world with horses in this race. Most people who actually like Damien Hirst artworks had to work pretty hard themselves to even find out who he is- you cant just sit on your couch and wait for him to show up on Shot of Love with Tila Tequila, or on LOST.

And most of those people have actually looked at a lot of art, in a lot of galleries and museums, and evolved their taste- I tend to give em the benefit of the doubt that they werent somehow hoodwinked into liking his work.

Get any two art critics together, and you will witness a wonderful Catfight- I have done it at parties at my house, its hilarious. The concept that there is some unified behind the scenes conspiracy of shared ideas among critics, art dealers, curators, and collectors is totally ridiculous- I know examples of each who HATE Hirst, and others who LOVE him, and yet more who are totally indifferent. Same with any artist you can name- I could quickly find you a major critic who is for em, and another one agin em. I can find artists who cant get arrested in Bonn or Amsterdam, and are the toast of LA, and vice versa.

There is a great Jerry Saltz quote in the article I linked to in my Chuck Close post, in which he describes how he totally slammed some shows, and they promptly sold out, while he praised to the heavens other young artists who couldnt sell a thing. The power of the critic to change minds is vastly overrated.

As for me, I am not brainwashed- I dropped out of the only art history class I ever took, and didnt get an art degree- no professors were putting ideas in my head. I read the occasional art mag, but mostly just to look at the pictures, and I have evolved my own tastes by looking at a LOT of Museums, in North America, Europe, South America, and Asia, and in spite of that, there are some Damien Hirst pieces that I like, and some I dont. I dont swallow any philosophy or company line- I think he flops pretty often, but, like any artist, once in a while he hits the target.

I see no evidence he is a phony- I think, like many artists, he follows his own visions, but, in addition, he happens to be a pretty good businessman.
Rare, perhaps, among artists, but not impossible.
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  #111  
Old 02-14-2009, 01:14 PM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

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Cant I define my own set of tastes, that which appeals to me somehow, and have it include some things that other people like, without being some sort of sheeple?
I don't know the answer to this Ries, I would think yes. The tipping point though; when something becomes art or someone becomes a sheeple seems pretty analogous in the abstract sense. I think the fine-line between either and all is pretty interesting stuff. Some just "barely" art or heavy craft is my favorite kind... and besides, who can resist a good lambchop now and then.
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  #112  
Old 02-14-2009, 01:19 PM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

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what person wishes to devalue the efforts of another? Certainly not I and I do not wish to be seen as a killjoy. ...this amounts to little more than pop-entertainment. The likes of Michael Jackson wildly gesticulating on stage and grabbing his crotch.
I'm glad you didn't devalue his efforts! He liberated and advanced not only music and dance, but crotch grabbing too! A local band, "Naked Diabetics", now have the freedom to perform their version of the Ramones "Beat on the brat with a baseball bat". They substitute "my dick" for " the brat". It is a riot! Art shouldn't have to be anything , let alone "proper"!
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  #113  
Old 02-14-2009, 01:19 PM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

I've been out on plenty of gallery crawls that included various leap-frogging art hordes. It wasn't unusual that a major critic would end up walking beside or amongst you. They weren't looking for ass-kissing, because the artists wouldn't do it. They strolled from place to place drinking and chattering like everyone else. It was apparent to me that they were aware of their power, as paychecked contributers to, say...the voice or the Times, they were aware of their power to affect careers and wore that with force and pride. BUT, they were always the geeks of the group, smart and funny, taggers-along, lightweight in several ways...jovial, interesting and obviously NOT speaking to other critics or academics.
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  #114  
Old 02-14-2009, 02:54 PM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

What "Power" do critics have?
Can they leap tall buildings in a single bound?
X-ray vision?
See thru girls dresses?
Attract metal objects with their mind?

Maybe its cause I never lived in NYC, and youse NewYawkers are more suggestible or something- but I have found that a good review is worth about as much as the paper its printed on- its certainly never helped me with SALES- and although I got 3 good reviews for my last show, two local and one national, I still cant get arrested in most any museum around here without exposing myself.

Basically, I have never seen any manifestations of this mysterious power, beyond the power to absorb lots of free hors d'oerves and drinks.

Critics, like artists, do what they do because they have some weird internal drive to do so- they sure dont get rich on it, or get popular, or get all the cute girls or guys. Everybody curses critics behind their backs, and most art mags still pay a big hundred bucks or so per review. Believe me, if they could, they would be writing Steven King novels instead.
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  #115  
Old 02-14-2009, 03:17 PM
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Re: So, who makes installation art?

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He liberated and advanced not only music and dance, but crotch grabbing too!"

Well, I'm not sure I'd go that far Joe, even the stuffy old geezers of the 18th century must have seen ballroom dancing as a double entendre.
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