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  #26  
Old 11-27-2007, 05:12 AM
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Cantab Cantab is offline
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

Glenn – “naturally ocurring cycle”. There is another confusion here, I feel. It’s the ‘I know something about science’ default. The wealth of global expertise on the present state of the environment is limited (perhaps a few thousand genuine experts) – and that does not include you and me. So we, you and I, cannot propose to make broad sweeping statements about the state of the ecosystem, UNLESS a) we don’t care about objectivity, or b) we have studied the literature from the world bodies that have brought these experts together and tried to assemble a single coherent perspective. Which position are you taking?

Of course, we also cannot trust the perspective of any one individual expert, for, as we know, there are a range of reasons why one expert may get it all wrong. (I tire of the pub debater raising the views of some guy Channel 4 dredged up to challenge the received wisdom of academia). In the end we depend on the assembled wisdom and research of the world’s experts, as channelled to us by serious research institutes and the bodies that try to accumulate this data. Now, I’m an ordinary bloke in the street. I watch out for the warning signals. That’s my brain’s function. It might be a mugger, it might be eco-collapse. I hear that the assembled contemporary wisdom from all of the major assembled international studies speak of a possible problem here – the last one indicating a 90% likelihood of global warming being driven by human behaviour (Maybe NOT so natural, then?). My natural biological intelligence tells me to consider the threat.

In you post you take a position. It looks to me like an emotional position, somewhat reactionary even, in which your brain is over-ruled, for whatever reason, by your emotions. Emotions do that. But when they do, they over-rule the answers as well. Sit back and enjoy the good weather, Glenn? We can’t do anything about it? (How do you know this, by the way? ARE you one of these international experts?) Well, I have children and grandchildren, and I often measure the morality of my actions in relation to what they would wish of me and the possible consequences of my actions on their lives. Your position is just too convenient, Glenn. It means you can just go on as you are. The animal stops and listens when it hears something that might be a threat – have you stopped yet? The construction of your ideas does not suggest that you have. My objection here is that your position is founded on a pretence to knowledge you haven’t got. All we can do, as ‘bare forked animals’, is read the signs, and perhaps act with the seriousness and objectivity nature has freely given us to deploy.
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  #27  
Old 11-27-2007, 09:40 AM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

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So we, you and I, cannot propose to make broad sweeping statements about the state of the ecosystem, UNLESS a) we don’t care about objectivity, or b) we have studied the literature from the world bodies that have brought these experts together and tried to assemble a single coherent perspective. Which position are you taking?

My position is closer to b) than a) certainly, although there are actually two perspectives brought about by the experts. One of them gets all of the major funding and media attention because it serves an agenda. The other one is based on science, not hysteria.

speak of a possible problem here – the last one indicating a 90% likelihood of global warming being driven by human behaviour

That is myth that you have chosen to believe.

In you post you take a position. It looks to me like an emotional position, somewhat reactionary even, in which your brain is over-ruled, for whatever reason, by your emotions. Emotions do that.

Despite your condescending attitude, my position is in fact not based on emotion. I would even suggest that you examine which side of the debate has a stronger emotional investment. My position is influenced rather by the works of such people as Claude Allegre, one of France's most decorated geophysicists, Bjorn Lornborg, director of of the Danish Environmental Assesment Institute, Paleoclimate scientist Bob Carter of James cook University in Austrailia, Virginia State climate scientist Patrick Michaels, editor of World Climate Report, Denis Avery and Fred Singer, authors of Unstoppable Global Warming, Kabibullo Abdusamatov, head of the Space Research Sector for the Russian Academy of Science, and Roger Pielke Sr., former climatologist for the state of Colorado.

Sit back and enjoy the good weather, Glenn? We can’t do anything about it? (How do you know this, by the way? ARE you one of these international experts?)

I don't claim to be an international expert like Al Gore, but I do believe the research of qualified individuals as mentioned above.


Well, I have children and grandchildren, and I often measure the morality of my actions in relation to what they would wish of me and the possible consequences of my actions on their lives. Your position is just too convenient, Glenn. It means you can just go on as you are.
So, the legacy you are passing to your grandchildren is what? The morality of using headache-generating flourescent lightbulbs instead of incandescent? Walking or riding a bicycle as much as possible to offset the carbon footprint of limo-riding and jet-setting rock stars, hollywood personalities, and Al Gore world-saviong crusaders who hold their concerts and benefits that use up more electricity in a day than I use in three years?

Did you know that the recent California wildfires sent more carbon into the atmosphere than 6 million cars running non-stop for a year would have?
Or that cow flatulence produces much more CO 2 than humans? Or that if we radically altered our economy, got China and India to stop polluting, stopped all of the third world countries from developing a better standard of living, and returned the industrialized nations into agrarian societies, we MIGHT affect a fraction of a degree of Earth's NATURAL temperature change?

But you can hold your head high for doing your part to help save the world , while making me feel selfish, indulgent, and uncaring for living my humble life as I have been. Thanks for the legacy!
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  #28  
Old 11-27-2007, 11:59 AM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

This soup you concoct here is a recipe for apathy, Glenn. And it's still all too emotional for me. It also seems to me that your position only pretends to be scientific. For some reason, all this suits you. But I now accept that you have taken a position, so I will rest my case (which, by the way, was only ever 'Watch out!').

But I would say that I like what this artist has done with this piece, in displaying his sensitivity to a great issues of the time, regardless of the factual basis of his concerns. As I started out by saying, none of us, you included, can know what is actually happening out there. You just can't. We can only read the signs. However, we have both proven here that the signs can be read variously, as can the science. Showing sensitivity (as the artist of this thread does in his work) may be one of the things that redeems us, even as we are all arguing about who's science is the bad science. Maybe that's why I love art more, it helps maintain my humanity in the face of the incalculable. And it keeps me in love with life, and that feeds my concern for what may be our collective apathy....

Last edited by Cantab : 11-27-2007 at 02:44 PM.
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  #29  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:50 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

Cantab; Despite being English, you seem to lack an understanding of the English language. An apathetic person does not look at the research of BOTH sides of an issue and make an effort to seperate fact from fantasy. An apathetic person ignores the issue altogether. I can't help that you have drawn different conclusions than I have, but you might want to reconsider on what basis you throw labels around.

Pretend is another word you seem to have misused. If the scientists I have cited, who have impeccable credentials, are using pretend science, what on Earth would you call Al Gore's prophecy of 20 foot sea level rises when even the pro-globalwarming theorists' UN study predicted a 1 foot rise?

Emotional....let's see...a starving polar bear on a melting piece of ice...is that a reasoned or an emotional appeal? No mention is made about the increase of land made available for farming that formerly was not, nor of the hungry people that may be fed, lives saved, as a result.

Instead of so much attention and resources going toward a cause that FEELS good to get behind, but serves no actual purpose in effectively dealing with, how about the same people not being apathetic towards real human problems that have real human solutions, such as genocide in Darfur, lives being lost to drug and alcohol abuse, dealing effectively with sexual predators who abuse children, Islamic fascists who want to remake the world in their image and pretend that it is the will of Allah, millions of Africans who die from malaria because the use of DDT has been banned, toxic waste in China and Russia, toxic culture in Hollywood and MTV, and too much Jeff Koons sculpture out there!
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  #30  
Old 11-27-2007, 02:26 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

I really don't want to get into another one with you Glenn without getting clear as to what we're discussing/debating/arguing . So could you start by clarifying your phrase, "toxic culture in Hollywood and MTV".
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  #31  
Old 11-27-2007, 02:46 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

I agree with Glenn on the toxic culture comment, and on Jeff Koons too maybe.
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  #32  
Old 11-27-2007, 04:04 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

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I agree with Glenn on the toxic culture comment, and on Jeff Koons too maybe
Help me out. Maybe if I get it I'll agree. What is the nature of this thing(toxic culture) you two agree on? Can you describe it and the problems it causes. It is listed as one of the "real human problems that have real human solutions", a cause that needs attention and resources. This is something of more importance than global warming to Glenn,and to you to Cantab? Since it may involve my tax dollars, can you describe it. We can leave Jeff Koons alone for now, but feel free to include him in any commentary.
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  #33  
Old 11-27-2007, 04:34 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

jOe; In the early days of my lifetime, and in generations preceding, most of the movie culture used to be centered on some basic premises, such as love, honor, and respect. The exceptions to this were often done with a purpose, such as to make an elevating point or having some basic moral resolution about doing the right thing. And although some of the issues evolved over time, there was not a lot of debate about what was the "right thing" to do. there was little moral confusion back then.

Today's Hollywood and MTV culture is extremely narcissistic, and the imagery is quite often pornographic or nearly so, and gratuitous violence is normal rather than an exception used to make a point. The visual norm is to play rapid images that give adrenaline rushes as the viewer is put in the "fight or flight" mode. Intelligent dialogue gets cut, special effects and explosions are king. As for "doing the right thing", I know that if people lived the MTV values that are commonly expressed, we would be in serious trouble.

Can you imagine a movie like "Singing In the Rain" being made today? Or a song with the inocent feeling of " Somewhere Over the Rainbow" ?

The "toxic culture" of which I speak turns people who are not exposed to anything better into jaded, self-absorbed people who thing that the purpose of life is to entertain them.

In moderation, like junk food, one can survive this. Just as Evaldart is living proof of the resiliency of the human brain and mind given the music he listens to . But if that were the entire diet, the health picture would likely be much different.

You can be sure that your tax dollars will not be used to change this. Human problems-human solutions indeed, but this one involves personal choice on an individual and collective scale, not government intervention.
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  #34  
Old 11-27-2007, 04:42 PM
cooljamesx1 cooljamesx1 is offline
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

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The animal that stops still because it recognises a noise that MIGHT be a threat is using its version of intelligence. There may not be a threat, but its intelligence functions to signal up warning signs. Just recognise the signals, guys. Just act intelligently.

you mean like imprisoning all the suspected "reds" and Japanese Americans just for good measure?

panic again and again does way way way more harm than good. I don't expect people are acting intelligently on this one.
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  #35  
Old 11-27-2007, 05:11 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

Well said Glenn. So, if a "toxic culture" is a response or the sum total of human expression, why is it the way it is? You seem to think that the culture forms the people, but indeed the gate swings both ways. You may find, if you were to explore them, 80's punk bands like Idiot Culture(appropriate enough?),The Spectators, The Subhumans, as much as you may dislike their sound and appearance, share some of your angst. You can't express those feelings,let alone protest or heal with songs like "Singing in the Rain" or hoping that "a song with the inocent feeling of " Somewhere Over the Rainbow" " is going to make things better.
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  #36  
Old 11-27-2007, 07:22 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

Its far too much to ask your country or your culture or even humanity provide wellness for you or nurture you like a damn baby. You're here, so deal with it. Accomplices and cohorts might help but if your crafty enough you'll get along just fine. Partake in your enjoyments to the point that they wont dispense of you - THEIR rules matter. You will be misinformed continuously about what is bad and what is good - you must distill it with your consciousness. Its hot, then cold , then hot again...so what, 98.6 is overdue for an adjustment anyhow. "Apathy" is a tool of the primitives, witch-hunting you to support them. You've got plenty of your own thing to do, and plenty of damn distractions trying to get in your way - the climate will likely be the least of your worries.

Oh, I forgot to mention the wonderful picture Glenn gave us of him blowing up frantically into the sky trying to repel that meteor. Made my day.

Last edited by evaldart : 11-27-2007 at 07:34 PM.
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  #37  
Old 11-27-2007, 07:54 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

as/re Glenn's 'naturally recurring cycles'

here's 'nuther graph

note that as the planet warmed to peaks 130,000 y.b.p., 240,000 ypb, 330,000 ypb, 420 ypb, co2 and ch4(methane), etc rose with the temperature
( i ain't addressing causality)

chart reads from right to left past to present

one could readily argue that as our temperature has somewhat stagnated in it's recurring rise(mini ice age circa 1300-1800 to blame?)co2 levels have risen constantly, indication an anomaly in the charts

personally, i think that as the earths orbit shifts to more elliptical (less circular) and we fall into another period of glaciation, that a good dose of global warming before the ice may give us another few thousands of years to find a way of surviving the glaciers without resorting to the four horsemen

go global warming

if you like polar bear steaks, you should probably go hunting soon while you can still get some that are well marbled
(IMHO)Al Gore is a flim flam man who needs resort to "gee whiz" charts to peddle bullshit to the ignorant...lecturing us on fossil fuel use dngers while sitting in a 3 gallons per mile helicopter and then in a 5 mpg limo while maintaining 6 mansions (each of which uses 2-5 times the fuel my modest home consumes)
like a guy standing in front of you with 2 hams and a turkey under his arms saying "there ain't enough food, you guys gotta eat less"
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  #38  
Old 11-27-2007, 10:20 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

yeah, if we get a little global warming before the ice, I may just thaw out a bit from keeping the thermostat at 64degrees to keep the polarbears and the piggy bank happy. It's cyclical. I'm going to get my sunscreen & enjoy the spectacle. you want butter on your popcorn?
if freaking people out keeps a few from taking more than their share i'll have to consider this ploy...
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  #39  
Old 11-27-2007, 11:58 PM
cooljamesx1 cooljamesx1 is offline
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

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if we allowed unquestioning tolerance to all art, where would propaganda fall? how about the bible?

Art, especially art dealing with science and important current issues should obey the rules of logic. otherwise it is a lie.

The great depend on truth and demand honesty.
what was the past me thinking? you're right about art joe. But I still think this work is deceiving.
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  #40  
Old 11-28-2007, 12:44 AM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

Deceiving or deceived? I remember many great works of art with people sailing over the edge of a flat world and being eaten by sea monsters as well. Were they deceiving? One need not be "right" about a scientific matter to make a nice piece. Getting back to the Polar bear, Circeart did a fine job, the only thing that I'm on the fence about is the overly skeletal body. It should perhaps also have a very bony and thin skull and the head to me looks full and not gaunt. The body is perhaps a bit too gaunt and anything showing that much rib would likely have buzzards picking at it. I do like the pose and the gentle desperation the animal portrays and I see a great art there.. The rest, scientific, political or whatever is dealt with historically and if it's "right" you're ahead of your time and if it's "wrong", no one will care anyway in a decade or two.
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  #41  
Old 11-28-2007, 05:06 AM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

Joe – re. Post 32. No, there isn’t an issue, politically speaking, that’s more important to me than global warming. Hence my annoying posts. As for Hollywood/MTV’s toxicity, I agree with Glenn’s additional reference to its narcissism as well. I would also argue that this aspect of modern culture is now an ingrained feature of contemporary popular culture, placed there in part because vested financial interests within popular culture see the money that can be made by appealing to our vanity and self-regard. I don’t see the same narcissism in what I have elsewhere referred to as ‘high’ culture. All the great contemporary writers I read (from, say, John Updike to Ali Smith) adopt a high seriousness, even when they are being funny and satirical. They see their art as having to possess objectivity, even when it is personal. Like scientists, ironically enough, they choose to see the subject of their work objectively. Hollywood/MTV do not set out to do this. We are having our ability to act with restraint, to act objectively and to think beyond our selves and our desires trashed. Great art carries us beyond ourselves, as the great religions once did, it invites complexity of response and feeling. Toxic art reduces our capacity to respond in a complex way. That’s what toxicity does. We choke rather than breathe, and once we are used to the choking, we regard it as normality.

There were times when the world could afford narcissism, when small cultural, economic and political elites lived by their desires, in a web of self regard and affluence. Consider the courts of the kings and queens of old Europe. In modern democratic/capitalist societies we invite everyone to pursue their own best interests and if we are not careful those best interests may be defined by the vested interests behind modern mass entertainment industries. Those interests may be the interests of MAKING MONEY, not what is best for us. And what is best for us is what good art is all about.

As for 'go global warming' - my wise old mum used to warn me to be careful what I wished for. I've lived to see the truth in her words. And as for this - "I'm going to get my sunscreen & enjoy the spectacle. you want butter on your popcorn?". Yep. Hollowed out culture, but, hey, if you're enjoying yourself it's got to be OK. Yeh? Personally I'd advocate something very simple: self-restraint. It can be so liberating, and CERTAINLY less toxic all round.

Last edited by Cantab : 11-28-2007 at 04:09 PM.
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  #42  
Old 11-28-2007, 07:17 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

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As for 'go global warming' - my wise old mum used to warn me to be careful what I wished for. I've lived to see the truth in her words. And as for this - "I'm going to get my sunscreen & enjoy the spectacle. you want butter on your popcorn?". Yep. Hollowed out culture, but, hey, if you're enjoying yourself it's got to be OK. Yeh? Personally I'd advocate something very simple: self-restraint. It can be so liberating, and CERTAINLY less toxic all round
Oooh you called me hollw! I'll have you know it's taken many years of deep breathing to achieve this popcorn eating cool. As I've noted, I make a point to tread lightly on the earth- as I sit here in my cold, dark house. I have no gift of influence over other people, so I will not be out trying to change the world. I will be staying away from the hot blooded mobs standing in a line they created to stand up for their cause.
I think there is no finer zealot than a new zealot. and the warming is cyclical.
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  #43  
Old 11-28-2007, 07:58 AM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

No, I wasn’t meaning to call you hollow, Grommet. I don’t think any human being really is. But the culture can hollow out, and then we get distracted.
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  #44  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:44 AM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

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I don’t see the same narcissism in what I have elsewhere referred to as ‘high’ culture.
Your are right, tis not the same. Just a different species of narcissism.
Quote:
Toxic art reduces our capacity to respond in a complex way.
So does any form of narcissism. Note, I'm not defending that which you rail against. Just adding to the heap.
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  #45  
Old 11-29-2007, 07:06 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

Is it hot in here, or am I just narcissistic?
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  #46  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:35 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

yes...
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  #47  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:46 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

I guess you could say that you are hot for yourself.
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  #48  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:47 PM
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Re: GLOBAL WARMING SCULPTURE

Be careful about spreading narcissism to widely here. Like selfishness it's an UNDUE preoccupation with the self/oneself, not a measure of normality.
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