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  #1  
Old 08-26-2005, 11:28 AM
Jamo Jamo is offline
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Public displaying of Nude Art

I was wondering what everyone thought about public display of nude art to children. Do you see it as something that is inappropriate? This would include sculpture, drawings and photography. What are the boundries here? I would also like to point to some of Jeff koons work or maybe even Robert Maplethorp. There seems to me to be two competing opinions that first nude art is something that should be celebrated and not censored to younger audiences and then there is the other view point that it is lude and totally inappropriate. I would think that Jeff Koons is pushing it here with his sculpture. I'd like to hear what you guys think

http://www.xs4all.nl/~exadega/koons/madeinheaven.html

http://www.haliburtonecho.ca/webapp/...News+%2D+Local
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  #2  
Old 08-26-2005, 12:03 PM
Judy Robins Judy Robins is offline
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Personally, I don't believe any type of censorship should apply to nude sculptures or any art for that matter, whether indoors or outdoors. Our society is soo hung up on naked bodies being bad, like they say, "everyone is naked under their clothes" !! The human body is extremely beautiful and has the best composition nature can supply. Judy Robins
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  #3  
Old 08-26-2005, 12:06 PM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Koon's photographs are definitely hard core porn and shouldn't be displayed publicly anywhere for anyone, especially children. I can't believe you're even asking such a thing, let alone posting these images here.

Gary
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  #4  
Old 08-26-2005, 12:10 PM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy Robins
Personally, I don't believe any type of censorship should apply to nude sculptures or any art for that matter, whether indoors or outdoors. Our society is soo hung up on naked bodies being bad, like they say, "everyone is naked under their clothes" !! The human body is extremely beautiful and has the best composition nature can supply. Judy Robins
Judy, did you actually look at the images posted? This is not a simple display of the nude human form, this is the same content displayed on hard core porn sites.

Gary
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  #5  
Old 08-26-2005, 12:34 PM
Judy Robins Judy Robins is offline
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

I don't believe in censorship of any kind. Sorry, freedom of speech means everything to me as an artist and if one lets censorship start there is no ending. Even if it seems repugnant, we must protect freedom of speech. Judy Robins
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  #6  
Old 08-26-2005, 12:46 PM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Erotica and fertility have been subject matter for art from day one...

How displayed, used, or viewed by the culture in which it was produced belongs to history.

Right now, Koons' work is part of our culture and our time in history. How we view it, or whether or not we allow it to be viewed, is representative of who we are.

We are part of history and only time can tell where Koons' work belongs--whether that be in public, private, or trash collections?
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"Important artists are innovators whose work changes the practices of their successors; important works of art are those that embody these innovations."
Galenson, David W. Old Masters and young geniuses, Princeton University Press, 2006
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  #7  
Old 08-26-2005, 01:14 PM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy Robins
I don't believe in censorship of any kind. Sorry, freedom of speech means everything to me as an artist and if one lets censorship start there is no ending. Even if it seems repugnant, we must protect freedom of speech. Judy Robins
Ummm...Judy, there are already laws on the books that classify such images as pornography. This has nothing to do with freedom of speech. There is no community in the United States where you could legally show such images in a public venue without running afoul of existing laws.

Jamo, I would think anyone with a little common sense and some knowledge of pornography laws would know the difference between the acceptable display of nudes in fine art and the images Koons offers on his website. These images, in particular, the two at the very bottom of the page "Made in Heaven" are identical in every respect to the images found on internet porn sites. There is no difference at all, save for the fact that Koon's ex-wife is the subject.

Gary

Last edited by GaryR52 : 08-26-2005 at 01:22 PM.
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  #8  
Old 08-26-2005, 01:41 PM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

I am pleased to see the rights of the artist so well defended. Yet I think that the opinion of the public is influenced by the culture of which they are a part.
In Europe there is one attitude, in Asia and North America there are others.

Every sculpture I create is nude and I admit that I hesitate to post things on this site as there is a heavy North American influence and it may upset some people, I don't feel that this is the reaction I want to evoke with my art. This is a self imposed form of censorship for if the site were European I would most likely show the piece.
I think that it is about respect and in this case I think that it is important to respect North American culture.

Having said that, I would agree with the comment in the article
when it comes to the display of the art, “the kids don't have a problem at all. The parents do.”
And don't we define a culture by what we teach our children.

Blake
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  #9  
Old 08-26-2005, 01:56 PM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

"Yet I think that the opinion of the public is influenced by the culture of which they are a part.
In Europe there is one attitude, in Asia and North America there are others."

True, Blake. These are referred to as "community standards," and, even within the United States or within a single state, the community standards vary. I'm sure that in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco the standards are much different (dare I say lower?) than in most of the country. However, the internet is not, as yet, subject to any one community's standards, as it is impossible to apply the standards of one locale equally for all viewers. Hence, porn gets around the community standards laws when displayed online.

However, when it comes to public display in a physical location, especially if children are involved, the standard is usually a bit more restrictive, and with good reason. I think most people would agree that such images are not appropriate for children. You may disagree, but you'd be in a very small minority if you do and, I might add, it's a minority populated by every pedophile in the country. If that's the sort of company you wish to keep, well...

Gary

Last edited by GaryR52 : 08-26-2005 at 02:00 PM.
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  #10  
Old 08-26-2005, 02:26 PM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Gary
I think that you are speaking of Koons work, which I don't even want to discuss, I agree it is very close to porno and quite inappropriate by any community standard. I am speaking of Public Sculpture and life drawing classes and “art” in general as was indicated in the original thread.
Blake
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  #11  
Old 08-26-2005, 02:32 PM
Jamo Jamo is offline
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Gary you missed my point. My question is not wether I think it is acceptable to show hardorce porn to children . This is ridiculous and disturbing. What I was asking was that nudity is often found offensive to some individuals and what people thought about the display of the nude. People tend to get upset over the "public" display of nudity because it may burn the the eyes out of the pure & innocent clothed individuals. Most of our greatest artistic treasures are nude Donatello's/Michelangelo's David, Venus de Milos to name some of the iconic ones. To me it would be saddening and a failure to society as a whole not to display these publicly. However nowadays when a cotemporary artist has a nude publicly displayed it is a source of much controversy. I wanted to see what people's opinions were on this. Wether you like it or not erotica/nudity and art have been intertwined since the beggining. I pointed to Jeff Koons and Robert Maplethorp because these are "artists" that are internationally recognized for their work and they represent the most extreme sexual depiction of the human body. I don't think it is especially good work and I don't think it is appropriate for public display. my first post said "I would think Jeff Koons is pushing it here". I do not condone these images being publicly shown.This isn't a debate of hardcore porn free speech it is about art and nudity. That being said I think North American culture is too caught up with Nudity and needs to relax somewhat. We have completely twisted notions about what should be publicly allowable. Janet Jackson flashes a boob and its horrible yet we can watch someone being bludgeoned to death and its ok.
I would also like to point another distinction between nudity and nakedness. They are not the same. Nudity is a term often used with more postive conotations of humanism and naturality. However Nakedness has negative conotations as weakness defenseless and exposed. Historically depicted in scenes of conquering and defeated enemies. An example of nudity would be pierre auguste renoir's bathers. An example of nakedness is the warka vase or Palette of Narmer. Clothing has also been used to denote power and influence as well. Notice in the painting that the men are wearing the clothes. People often get these confused.
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2005, 02:36 PM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
I am pleased to see the rights of the artist so well defended. Yet I think that the opinion of the public is influenced by the culture of which they are a part.
...I think that it is important to respect North American culture.

..., I would agree ..., “the kids don't have a problem at all. The parents do.”
And don't we define a culture by what we teach our children.

Blake
First----Jamo while all are "fights" there are striking differences between a prize fight, bar fight, knife fight and a gun fight-------let us use a broad brush where apropos and a fine brush where detail matters
So too within "nude" we have nude, naked, and porn---you cited porn

Blake:
“the kids don't have a problem at all. The parents do.” and as the kids become acculturated they develop the prejudices of the parents----"the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons"-----unless we change...

I would like to see a change away from prudishness.....
Desensitize the cultural morays------successive approximations toward a goal or shock therapy.... (Total Emerson)... without the controlled setting of therapy is impossible.

My son Michael is in the peace corps in a small Indian village east of the Andes in Ecuador.
Single room houses and big families, the kids grow up with sex and aren't traumatized but rather accept sex as a normal part of life. Flip side----their culture has strict male and female rolls-----e.g: men gather the corn, women husk and shell it.

Multiculturalism as an intellectual pursuit is one thing, when it shifts to an emotional level we tend to assign the "good and bad" dichotomy.

While I despair that much "modern art" seems intended for shock value (piss christ) and bespeaks an artist hung up in the juvenile rebellious stage with no concept of the value of the culture, I accept that this may be a part of change--though fear that the shock value makes the "old folks" hold on ever more tenaciously to their cultural prejudices.

Whither hence?

rod
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2005, 02:42 PM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo
... I think North American culture is too caught up with Nudity and needs to relax somewhat. We have completely twisted notions about what should be publicly allowable. Janet Jackson flashes a boob and its horrible yet we can watch someone being bludgeoned to death and its ok.
I would also like to point another distinction between nudity and nakedness. They are not the same. Nudity is a term often used with more postive conotations of humanism and naturality. However Nakedness has negative conotations ....
Oops:
you posted this while I was wandering

yes, I agree

and a local artist/sculptor does his "nude" sculpture without heads hands or feet----he said that the face makes a nude naked and doesn't sell well.

rod
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2005, 03:52 PM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

In the case of Jeff Koons, Robert Maplethorp and piss Christ the desired effect of their work is to shock and thereby attract controversy and media attention. This is not art it is marketing.
(Although one could argue that marketing is the art of today.)

I think that change in North America will be difficult without therapy as suggested by sculptor. Having said that, what we as artists need to do is administer that therapy, ever so slowly, for unfortunately the two extremes; porn and prude appear to have control.

In Europe we don't suffer these extremes, I have both genders represented in public parks in France and have never had a comment let alone controversy. (pity I could use the marketing)

Nude sculpture done with taste and sensitivity will be acceptable to the majority of the public, it is the radicals that you need to convince and censorship is not an option.

P.S. Randall definitely the goat
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  #15  
Old 08-26-2005, 06:34 PM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Gary
I think that you are speaking of Koons work, which I don't even want to discuss, I agree it is very close to porno and quite inappropriate by any community standard. I am speaking of Public Sculpture and life drawing classes and “art” in general as was indicated in the original thread.
Blake
Right, Blake, I am talking specifically about Koon's pornographic photos. Sorry, I thought that was what we were discussing.

Gary
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  #16  
Old 08-26-2005, 06:52 PM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Sorry, Jamo. I re-read your post later and realized that you were not defending Koons' porno images. It is not the nudity I am objecting to, by the way. I have no problem with that. It is the blatant creation of imagery that is straight out of a pornographic website that I object to. Koons is trying to suggest that a picture of a woman with a penis in her mouth and cum on her face (sorry for the graphic description, but that's what it shows) is "fine art," as deserving of gallery space as Ansel Adams' "Moonrise: Hernandez New Mexico." But, what are we to expect from the same guy who tries to fob off vacuum cleaners as sculpture? Koons is a deliberate provocateur, in the tradition of Duchamp, but he goes way beyond Duchamp's attempts to challenge the establishment's ideas about what constitutes art. Koons doesn't stop there. He has to shock and demoralize by placing the most objectionable imagery he can get away with in full view of anyone who happens into any gallery where it may be displayed. To reiterate, this is not an issue of mere nudity and anyone who attempts to downplay the blatant pornographic nature of Koons' images is probably deliberately pretending there is nothing alarming about it and therefore, aides and abets Koons in his attempts to chisel away at what little remains of public decency. If you subscribe to what he's doing, I'd ask you what's next, "kiddie" porn on display at MOMA?

As for images of violence, I agree with you. It is perverse that our culture condones violence to a greater degree than human sexuality. I won't attempt to rationalize that, as there is no rational reason for it. The effect of exposing children to either, especially before they are intellectually, emotionally and physically mature enough to assimilate such information without harm to their development is dangerous and I wish we were as concerned about the effects of violence in TV and movies, as well as video games, as we are about the effects of exposure of children to pornography.

Gary

Last edited by GaryR52 : 08-26-2005 at 06:55 PM.
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  #17  
Old 08-26-2005, 07:31 PM
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bluedogshuz bluedogshuz is offline
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Smile Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Art should raise the human spirit, Koons work is depressing and dehumanizing.
There is some great Erotic art on the web,very intresting and exciting, this other stuff is crap in my opinion and VERY DEGRADING. I hope children don't have to see it. Sexuality and the human body is very beautiful. There is a way to display this beauty even to children but this example is not it.
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  #18  
Old 09-13-2005, 08:01 AM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by LostNYC
but somehow I never really thought of photos in terms of being "art", photos to me are something you take with a mechanical device called a camera, you have the scene you want to capture, set the focus, push the button and there's the image.
I don't even know where to start in response to that statement,it's just so plainly wrong!



.
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Old 09-13-2005, 10:04 AM
ironman ironman is offline
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

Hi, First off, a little story.
When my oldest daughter was about 3-4 yrs old she walked in on me as I was getting out of the shower. She looked, pointed to my penis and asked, "what's that?", I replied "that's my penis" to which she said "oh" and walked out the door. end of story.
I have no problem with the public display of nudity in art (or in general, actually) but what we're talking about is the public display of various sex acts, which to me is different.
Now I don't wish to censor Koons (who I can't stand) or Mapplethorpe (who is a great photographer and someone I went to H.S. with) but I really don't think some of that imagery is appropriate for young children.
And it's probably ME, and the kids wouldn't think twice about it.
By the time they're 12 yrs. old (if not before) they'll probably know about it anyway.
In Europe, people come to the beach all dressed up, strip right out in the open, not hiding anything and then put their bathing suits on. That to me is a healthy approach to nudity, no one pays attention to it.
Well, I could go on about this but I gotta go run around in my front yard naked!
Have a nice day,
Jeff
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  #20  
Old 09-14-2005, 12:27 PM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

I prefer the back yard! My daughter when she was 7 saw a marble torso I had done, her comment was: boobs! She then placed her head on the top of the piece arms extended and said take a picture! Still have that picture. You know kids are kids. Some kids like to look at the masters so they can check out nudity. Theres a difference between that and vulgarity and I think we all know that...
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  #21  
Old 09-14-2005, 12:57 PM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

The public---the common (wo)man really seem to love "Public displaying of Nude Art"

If ISIS is any indicator, over 99% of her viewers applaud the effort and enjoy the views.

longer version at the Take the Art To the People
project's on-line site

lets all do more like this

rod
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  #22  
Old 09-14-2005, 07:46 PM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

This public display of nude art at the empty 4th plinth of Trafalgar Square at the heart of London will really test the reaction of the public.

It is a beautiful work of art, a large marble statue based on the body cast of a disabled pregnant woman. It also has a touching story behind her determination to live her life as a photographer artist, and bring up the child despite her severe disability.

This below is a well written article from the Guardian about the statue, with a nice photo taken at the stone carver's workshop. http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/...568650,00.html

Here below is her astornishing story told by herself, http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/featu...561046,00.html
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  #23  
Old 09-14-2005, 09:31 PM
Jamo Jamo is offline
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

what would happen if some archeologist found the arms to the venus de milos? would we put them back on? It's grown into such an iconical image that how could you think of it in any other way?
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  #24  
Old 09-14-2005, 11:40 PM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

re:
"...would happen if some archeologist found the arms to the venus de milos..."

different times different mores

if someone found the missing scrotum and penis from MichaelAngelo's Baccus would they reattach them?

Cellini made a few Ducats refinishing a found greek marble and called it prometheus----complete with oversized chicken looking longingly at the canary in the lad's hand...even the best had recourse to schlock(sp?)

Give me some bronze and a forge and I'll repair some of Rodin's crap?

missing parts of the Laocoon group reapeared and the previous "repairs" were discarded

we're beyond neo-classical so something new----neo renaissance?

(wo)man is the measure of all things

if beauty is only skin deep, why make a figurative sculpture solid?

and hundreds of other silly questions and coments are readily available
just trip the right circuits

I think of Quinn as a taxidermist, not a sculptor.(One who shapes, molds, or fashions especially with artistry or precision...carve, cast, chisel, cut, engrave, fashion, hew, model)......can you just phone it in and be the "sculptor"? Can't the Guardian Unlimited afford a dictionary? If I were as loose with my tools as they are with our language, perhaps my sculptures of women would look like Stalin?

whither hence?

oh, if memory serves the venus of milo was discovered in the back of a truck headed for a lime kiln--a little haggling, and a classic was reborn---one mans trash is another mans treasure......

rod
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  #25  
Old 09-15-2005, 11:22 AM
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Re: Public displaying of Nude Art

It is clear that opinions on this statue on the London Trafalgar Square 4th Plinth will be divisive.

Some people will like it very much, while others will loathe it. I am with the former group.
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