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  #26  
Old 09-26-2007, 10:26 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
I'm unfamiliar with interspecies animal sex being part of the natural order.
Well, shall we start with a simple mule and move on from there?
  #27  
Old 09-26-2007, 11:35 AM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by grommet
Well, shall we start with a simple mule and move on from there?
Yes, please move on from there. If you can escape from horse-donkey-zebra-mule examples, or similar species that have minor differences like the cat family, and find, instead, a chimpanzee trying to mate with a giraffe, or a bear trying to hump a salmon instead of having it for dinner, then we are getting closer to a valid comparison.
  #28  
Old 09-26-2007, 11:45 AM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

you guys have torn off down the wrong track. Someone mentioned symbolism - well the goat is obviously Satan thers a father and a son: This sculpture is a celebration of Christian triumph.
  #29  
Old 09-26-2007, 11:50 AM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

My dog tried to hump a monkey once. No kidding. The monkey had been raised among dogs and showed no fear--I couldn't read the expression beyond that. I'll spare you the details. Humans broke it up. You'd think it was a dominance thing but he never did that to anything else other than females of his own kind. Just thought you'd like to know. My current dog is fixed--praise me or beat me up for that as you will.
  #30  
Old 09-26-2007, 12:16 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Well, I wonder what kind of reaction this would provoke if instead of being archetypal caucasians; "evil white man", if he had put turbans on them instead? As I stated earlier, this kind of propaganda has been used through the ages to depict the bad guys of the world and to rationalize their mistreatment.

Looks like the entertainment section of Al-Jazeera to me no matter how you slice it and if that's what you like to read then great. For anyone looking for 15 minutes of fame and glory there's still plenty left undone, a quick sculpt of the V-Tech massacre could get some mileage I think. We could set up the students having a big orgy moments before their sacrifice to the "truth" gods... Hell, I'd even do it with paper mache and scissors to save labor and material cost.

Back to global lettuce and other "more important" topics..
  #31  
Old 09-26-2007, 12:26 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

I would suggest you guys do a bit more research, and see more of McCarthy's work.

Then, some of you would really go off the deep end, and others might get a better idea of what he is trying to do.

http://www.kunstwissen.de/fach/f-kuns/o_pm/papermg0.htm

http://www.kunstwissen.de/fach/f-kuns/o_pm/carthy07.htm

http://www.newmuseum.org/more_exh_p_mccarthy.php


Cultural Gothic, the goat piece. is pretty sedate for McCarthy- many of his works do include actual sex acts, naked people, and other much more graphic stuff.

There is no doubt he is doing this on purpose, to incite exactly the kinds of reactions, and thoughts, he is getting here.

He has been described as a "purveyor of difficult truths".

I would argue there is a big difference between actually polluting a river or air, with long term physical and health consequences, and making an artwork that discusses issues we find uncomfortable.

Artwork only affects the brain. If your brain is made uncomfortable, you dont have to look. We have this argument over and over here, with Glenn claiming that a responsible artist would not make work like this.
I disagree- I think it is important, and necessary, for artists to discuss uncomfortable subjects. The artist is not advocating sex with goats, he is using the subject SYMBOLICALLY to talk about our society and culture.

A non symbolic depiction would be more like the recent film "ZOO", which is a telling of the story of the Enumclaw Washington man who died after sex with a horse- sex in which the horse was the dominant partner. This was a real story, told relatively flatly, without symbolism, about real people and their real acts. The banality of actual human behavior is much more horrifying than anything McCarthy can come up with.

When McCarthy does a sculpture of a man having sex with a tree, as in his piece "The Garden" he is not advocating sex with trees, nor is he somehow encouraging our children to go out and rape shrubbery. It is SYMBOLIC. Yep, just like thousands of other artists through out history, like Goya or Bosch, Francis Bacon or countless others, who depict violent, sexual or other situations in their work.

I gotta agree with Landseer on one point though- why is SEX so horrible, but death and dismemberment, and then eating the animal, not?

Assuming that an actual goat/boy sex act occured, which obviously is not what this piece is about- Wouldnt the goat still be a lot better off than if he was goat stew?

Artists can choose many roles in society.
One role, which certainly we are all free to avoid, is to ask uncomfortable questions.
Asking such questions is a far cry from actually having sex with animials, which I will go on record as being opposed to.
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  #32  
Old 09-26-2007, 01:26 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Asking uncomfortable questions is one of the roles of an artist? I thought that was the role of comedians and clowns.

Next time you are at a party, feel free to announce that you are an artist, and then ask, " Anyone here beat their wife lately?" ( Hey, don't look at me like that, it's the role I have chosen as an artist to ask these things! )

Beastiality is not an uncomfortable question, it is a sickness.
An uncomfortable question is, " Have you been putting on weight?"
( answer: no, just got pregnant from last month's fling with a kangaroo! )

Again, I point to the fact that because people murder people, this is not a good reason to say that rape is not so bad. Likewise, because animals are abused in many ways that are more horrific than thru beastiality, that does not make beastiality less of a crime. ( except in Sweden )

If McCarthy's work is just like thousands of others throughout history, then a front yard plastic Santa Claus is just like the the Venus de Milo. But I think we are looking at different history books. Mine have art in them.
  #33  
Old 09-26-2007, 01:55 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT
Interesting, though, to juxtapose the million year old survival needs and instinct of meat eating with the fabricated desire to bugger animals.
People don't NEED meat, it is a luxury, and one in fact that wastes huge amounts of resources and creates enormous amounts of pollution. It's conversion loss is if I remember from a discussion elsewhere earlier this summer- 9 pounds of grain, corn etc to make ONE pound of beef, I forget how many thousands of gallons of already short water it takes, and how much pollution from factory farm runoff winds up in rivers, streams, lakes and ground water.
MOST of the corn grown in this country is instead fed to LIVESTOCK at that conversion loss. Corn that could otherwise feed people is squandered stuffing cattle in huge numbers so people who prefer to eat meat can.

Quote:
with the fabricated desire to bugger animals.
Everything we do except eat sleep and breath is fabricated desire, including masturbation, sex, entertainment, arts, music, going for a drive to see the fall leaves etc.
Relationships with animals, at least pets- is a symbiotic one, both the person and the animal usually gain something, the animal gets care, food, water, medical , affection and so on, the person gets a companion, pet, affection etc. In some cases it goes deeper, but is a continuation of the affection portion of the relationship.


Quote:
In the animal kingdom, meat eating is a part of the natural order. I'm unfamiliar with interspecies animal sex being part of the natural order.
It is, because animals can't cook food or grow corn, however, they DO have not only a sex drive but the same body parts people do and the same physiological responses, including a clitorus and orgasm. There are quite a few inter-species photos on the web and plenty of evidence of homosexual acts as well. The USDA did a study on so called "gay rams" and found their brains had a difference, the study was done because farmers were complaining about buying expensive breeding rams only to find they preferred to try breeding other rams and had no interest in the Ewes.

Domestic pets don't generally care WHAT they mate with, especially in the case of male dogs- the sofa cushions or your leg works just as well.

Quote:
Why bother looking to natural cycles for answers though, if we are not willing to see global warming as a cyclical pattern that has occurred long in Earth's history, and prefer to use it as a prop to push a social agenda?
Seriously- yes there's natural cycles, but none as fast and extensive as THIS one, the ice core samples show the chemistry of the ice and how it's drastically changed since the industrial revolution in the 19th century. When there was only a million people on the entire planet these cycles didn't matter much, neither did volcanoes or meterorite strikes, but now with every acre of land covered by humans or developed in some way, and the dwindling resources- one bad event or a couple of bad crop years, a flood like N.O. and it's a major disaster.
Before 1492 if N.O. was hit by a hurricane and flooded ten feet deep, it didn't matter- no one lived there, ditto for the volcano in Oregon's Crater Lake area, or the volcano near Seattle when it blew up and there was a huge quake, it didn't matter, now thousands of people can be killed if not more, and billions of dollars in damages.
Quote:
By the way, the bit about blaming the children or parents for accessing destructive elements in our culture is weird.
How is that "wierd"? parents taking responsibility for themselves and their kids, and setting their own criteria for what is acceptable to them?

What someone may consider "destructive" is only their opinion, it is not factual unless a negative can be proven is the direct result.
We know cigarette smoking causes cancer, so smoking is destructive, but that is the smoker's choice not mine to make FOR them.

We know too much alcohol is destructive, it's proven every day, small
amounts are not, but there are already laws against getting drunk and behind the wheel of a car, prohibition didn't work, it was a failure and simply created criminals and a massive black market with the mobsters raking in fortunes, ditto for gambling now you have casinos in Nevada and elsewhere.
The list goes on.
Someone who has sex with an animal in private harms no one, it affects no one and given the fact this pornography is extremely popular indicates there is a significant as well as growing market for both. The 15% of people in that above survey of 7,000 also shows it.
You do a simple Google search for three search words, here is the result in numerical order;

Results 1 - 100 of about 1,160,000 for heterosexuality
Results 1 - 100 of about 3,500,000 for bestiality
Results 1 - 100 of about 13,800,000 for homosexuality

If there was little or no interest in this, you would not find three and half MILLION hits for it in Google.

Like they say, no one is going to look after you but YOU, you are the most important person to YOU, the guy 2 miles down the road is probably not going to care much as he is looking out for himself and has his own problems.
Quote:
Is it alright for factories to pollute rivers as long as they post signs that say, warning, do not drink out of this body of water?
That is apples and oranges and does not apply the same to the subject at hand- people do not NEED to go surfing the web or to seek out pornography or nude art, they choose to. Last time I checked it's illegal to walk nude on public streets as well as perform ANY sex acts on a public street or park- people walking to work don't have a choice not to in order to avoid a nude sex show on the street, so it's not allowed, you do have a choice what you do on the web.

Pollution affects everyone very negatively, but aside from that- EVERYONE pollutes, so everyone is contributing to that regardless, it's degree is the only difference.
Unless you live in a rock cave and forage for mushrooms, chances are you live in a heated/A/C wood house with a paved driveway, a car, appliances that use electric, water, sewage and pollute the air.
  #34  
Old 09-26-2007, 02:30 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Goya was either a comedian or a clown, then.
Probably both.

Picasso, when he painted Guernica- what a joker!

History is littered with artists who did work that made people, at the time it was done, uncomfortable.

There are stories, probably apocryphal, of viewers actually vomiting after seeing early 20th century abstract art, as it was so "unnatural" and jarring.

Paintings of the crucifiction obviously will cause children to go nail their friends to crosses, right?

The work in question is not actual bestiality- it brings up bestiality in the context of conformity, the blandness of modern society, and its obvious similarity to Disney animitronics is not accidental- the artist is very intrigued by how creepy popular "entertainment" is, and how we all accept it without comment.

If the artist was actually banging a sheep, you might have a point. But hes not, anymore than Cezanne was actually paying a girl to bang a swan.
I fail to see any difference in concept between the two works.
Certainly, in execution, one is a pretty painting, the other a sculpture. They are different physically. But in concept, they are both discussing the same thing.
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  #35  
Old 09-26-2007, 02:47 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Well, at least we agree that Picasso was a joker!
  #36  
Old 09-26-2007, 03:59 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

"I am not brave enough to not pay my income tax and risk going to jail. But I can say rather freely what I want to say with my art."

Sister Corita Kent, Immaculate Heart Nun.

Another artist who asked uncomfortable questions.

http://www.underconsideration.com/sp...es/002315.html

http://www.artsjournal.com/aestheticgrounds/
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  #37  
Old 09-26-2007, 08:49 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Children do imitate, but it would be far fetched to think any would nail a playmate to a post. The majority of kids pre-puberty who might see something sexual are going to go "EWWWW GROSS!!!" the would have the same reaction to anything involving feces, blood or bestiality. Only a very rare few who grow into adults- say, that 15% in that sex survey- would find it interesting or want to try it, but not because they saw a sculpture of a photo- bestiality was common enough one of the kings - Henry the Vlll or something banned it, and children were even executed for it (remember the penalty back then was death by hanging) and none of these people had access to photos, videos or the web. A 16 year old who was executed certainly got the idea all on his own, probably from seeing farm animals mating and then decided he could try that too.

To prevent that, do we require all farm animals now be fully clothed and during mating season be kept pastured behind curtains running the entire perimeter of the farm so passerby don't have to see it and no one will get naughty "ideas"?
That idea is as stupid as trying to control a billion computers and people world-wide on the internet, this also can't be done.

Quote:
The work in question is not actual bestiality- it brings up bestiality in the context of conformity, the blandness of modern society, and its obvious similarity to Disney animitronics is not accidental- the artist is very intrigued by how creepy popular "entertainment" is, and how we all accept it without comment.
It is implied and further helped by the text description and the mechanics of course, but there is no actual penetration of anything and no nudity- the figures are all fully clothed.

There are loads of this in the art world from the "prudish" 19th century and way way before. Here is a painting by Edouard Avril (1843-1928) of a Greek herder and goat;

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...manandgoat.jpg

Here is a gallery of images of his other works, very tastefully done but consider the links 18+ as they do show nudity and sex acts. I note the banner header done in a classical style has a Pan, with an erection, most of these are also sold now as posters on at least a couple of web sites that sell art posters, including the goat one so obviously there is demand for it;

http://www.arterotismo.com/PaulAvril/index.htm


Most of this all takes the form of prints, paintings, sketches and drawings not sculpture, so I only included images of sculptures here, and none of them are pornographic or X rated. Most of these images and artworks are definitely NOT implied or simulated, they are actual or show total nudity and penetration.
  #38  
Old 09-26-2007, 09:29 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
I'm unfamiliar with interspecies animal sex being part of the natural order.
I'm not even sure pet ownership itself or raising livestock is a "natural order" but it happened.

What exactly is "natural order" in human society today? probably nothing about today's society and life is "natural order" anyway, we have people living in polluted crime ridden paved over concrete jungles in tiny cubicles called apartments and condos, we don't walk to work we ride a man-made machine that unnaturally burns fossil fuels unnaturally extracted from the ground.
We wear artificial clothing, eat processed and manufactured as well as altered food, chemically altered water and on and on.
When we have pains we take pills and potions or have unnatural surgery performed, women have been conditioned to have birth in a HOSPITAL for so many years that when you hear of an ordinary home birth the story goes someone called 911 for an emergency AMBULANCE.

We have an entire generation of fat, overweight people who sit in front of the TV and eat greasy fatty processed food, and their kids doing the same.
I have a young and FAT neighbor near work who mows her little postage stamp sized lawn with a John Deere TRACTOR- the stupidist thing I've ever seen!

Like I said, probably almost nothing today is natural, "normal" or some kind of "natural order"
When sex is for recreation, then it doesn't matter what the acts are- none produce offspring anyway, masturbation doesn't, women past menopause can't get pregnant, men with vasectomies can't produce children and condoms along with B.C. pretty well ensure pregnancy won't happen either- so proably none of those are "natural" or follow a "natural order" either.
  #39  
Old 09-26-2007, 10:21 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT
Yes, please move on from there. If you can escape from horse-donkey-zebra-mule examples
How about a dog and a pig? two male donkeys? a deer and a dog? a cat and a rabbit? a dog and a cat? just to name 5 off the top of my head that pictures and in the case of the donkeys- a video are available of.

Maybe a male tiger and a dog count;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TmSwF0mejg

And a dog with a lion;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwRRUTr4s9c


Quote:
My dog tried to hump a monkey once
This is not as unusual as you may think, in fact captive apes have attempted to have sex with human caretakers, there are many examples and while not considered "common" it happens enough it's hardly rare or isolated either.
Male lions and giraffs weill even cuddle and show signs of homosexual acts, especially when females are not available- National Geographic who filmed a documentary on this; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlTAyNI8WE


Quote:
Cultural Gothic, the goat piece. is pretty sedate for McCarthy- many of his works
I noted that when I looked at his portfolio, one involves feces, so cultural gothic is not a surprise.


Quote:
Artwork only affects the brain. If your brain is made uncomfortable,
I agree, a person does not have to go and seek out art to look at that they would be offended by, get offended, and then complain about it.

Quote:
The artist is not advocating sex with goats, he is using the subject SYMBOLICALLY
It would be interesting to get his views and comments directly, anything else is speculation on our parts as to meaning and motives, but in any event the controversy in the work did it's job.

Quote:
Enumclaw Washington man who died
I have the DVD and I know who he was, his complete story, and I have seen a previous encounter video clip of his, and you'll have to take my word for it- he definitely was at a physical disadvantage under a 1200 pound stallion. The story was all over the media, plus the fact that he was a married father who worked at Boeing as an engineer, he died just after buying a small farm with a tiny barn, and a horse he planned to move to it nestled in the woods. The horse was stabled in the barn next door to the one the Enumclaw group rented, thus the tresspassing charge, but the horse involved was his. The media doesn't always get the facts straight.

Quote:
When McCarthy does a sculpture of a man having sex with a tree, as in his piece "The Garden" he is not advocating sex with trees, nor is he somehow encouraging our children to go out and rape shrubbery. It is SYMBOLIC.
I saw a clip of that, it was pretty strange, I guess I didn't get the symbolism there, I saw humping a tree.

Quote:
I gotta agree with Landseer on one point though- why is SEX so horrible, but death and dismemberment, and then eating the animal, not?
It's cultural, learned and sex in general is taboo to begin with, death and dismemberment of animals is so accepted because it's always been that way, mom taught the kids, mom was taught BY her mom who was taught by HER mom who probably beheaded her own chickens and turkey back in the days before white pre-packaged death trays in supermarkets.

Same as smoking, the kids grow up around mom-dad smoking, actors on tv and movies and ads all smoking and they take it up too. You look at movies from the 50's and 60's and everyone smoked.

So the 1930's era woman teaches daughter that sex is BAD, to do her duty for her MAN, and that she is not supposed to enjoy it lest she be considered a slut, and that bad men "do" sheep, and homosexuals "do" children, that's why daughter has sexual problems and is frigid, and she turns around and teaches her kids the same things her mom taught her years before.

Quote:
Assuming that an actual goat/boy sex act occured, which obviously is not what this piece is about- Wouldnt the goat still be a lot better off than if he was goat stew?
Of course, and chances are the goat probably wouldn't even notice junor back there due to "size" differences, which would be much more with a man and a cow.


Quote:
Beastiality is not an uncomfortable question, it is a sickness.
There's only one "A" in the word bestiality by the way... according to the DSM-lV manual- the psychiatric field's respected guide-book it is not, but is simply a paraphilia or fetish. Declaring something a "sickness" in absense of published proof is an opinion. Someone who commits arson for no reason has a sickness, the teen who sets fire to cats and dogs for fun has a sickness, and those are peer-reviewed and documented as such.
Remember; it wasn't long ago homosexuals were treated as mental patients and "treated" in mental hospitals, some of which included electro-shock and drugs.

Here's part of a study I extracted to keep it shorter, note that 11% are artists;

th Congress of the
EUROPEAN FEDERATION OF SEXOLOGY
Berlin, June 29 - July 2, 2000
"For a Millennium of Sexual Health"

University of Erlangen, Germany
HUMAN SEXUAL CONTACT WITH ANIMALS
New insights from current Research
Throughout history we can find pictures, paintings and reports about humans having sexual interactions with animals.

One of the earliest rock paintings, that shows a depiction of a man having intercourse with a large quadruped (probably a deer), dates from the bronze age (the 2nd millenium B.C.) (Dekkers, 1994). Ancient rock paintings in Siberia show the intercourse of men with moose (Taylor, 1996). Another rock drawing from 5000 B.C. shows a fox/dog copulating with a woman (Neret, 1994).

Sometimes only the intercourse with certain kinds of animals - e.g. impure animals - was forbidden, as in the society of the Hittites (13th Century B. C.). Thus, it was forbidden to have sex with a dog or a cow, but not with a horse or a mule (Gregersen, 1983; Dekkers, 1994)...

...a 350-item questionnaire... She received data from 82 men and 11 women... Only some of her results can be presented here. Most of the responding men (48%) and women (45 %) were college graduates or above. 16% of the males work in computer-related fields, 11% are artists, about 9% are students and about 7% work in animal-related fields. 27% of the females are students, 9% work in animal-related fields and 18 % in the medical field.

26% of the men and 27% of the women have never been married or lived in a sexual relationship with another person for a month or more. 32 % of the males and one woman are currently married. But almost half of the men and the majority of women are currently single.

One woman and 20 % of the males currently live on a farm and 67% of the males and 73% of the females live with a pet (mostly canines, felines and equines).

For the men the following reasons were "true /mostly true":

- I am sexually attracted to the animal 91%
- I want to express love and affection to the animal 74%
- The animals are accepting and easy to please 67%For the women the following reasons were "true/mostly true":

- I am sexually attracted to the animal 100%
- I want to express love and affection for the animal 67%
- The animal wants it 67%
- The animals are accepting and easy to please 56%The animals the men are most attracted to are the following:

- Canines 87%
- Equines 81%
- Bovines 32%
- Goats 28%
- Sheep 27% The animals the women are most attracted to:

- Canines 100%
- Equines 73%
- Felines 27%
-----
Then the issue of art and the internet come into play along with censorship, and Glenn's concern about art and how freely children can access graphic material that migth "damage" them or "give them ideas" the results may surprise you. In this study neither hard porn nor artwork such as McCarthy's was even mentioned.
How about the family oriented "Discovery Channel" about wildlife on TV as a cue in some cases? If a wildlife show on TV can start a child down the road to bestiality, then so could a wildlife CALLENDAR, maybe even Santa's reindeers could be the spark;

How did they start fantasizing about sex with animals or having sexual relations with animals?

Some have always been interested in their preferred animal and only later developed sexual fantasies about them, some read in books/magazines about zoophilia (e.g. the Sex Atlas), some found it very exciting to watch animal matings on TV (especially on the Discovery Channel in the US) and fantasized about that. Others started to touch the genitals of their pet-dog out of curiosity, in some cases the dog came up and licked the person`s genitals. Others did not remember when their fantasies started, but the behavior often started with nonsexual cuddling with the animal and then became sexual. So we see that there are a lot of ways that can lead up to the first sexual experience with an animal.

...have a very close emotional attachment to their animal partners. They report that they love their animal partner as others love their human partner and are devastated when their animal partner dies. They care about the sexual pleasure of the animal as well as their own.

(2 page long list of reference material omitted here)

Quote:
Again, I point to the fact that because people murder people, this is not a good reason to say that rape is not so bad. Likewise, because animals are abused in many ways that are more horrific than thru beastiality, that does not make beastiality less of a crime. ( except in Sweden )
Again you miss the point, the point again- people happily accept brutality as long as they get the MEAT, MILK and EGGS as cheaply as they can, even when confronted with photos and videos showing the horrific cruelty to animals in the meat industry they don't care, yet you insert "sex" (even masturbation which most animal breeders as well as VETS do to animals with artificial inseminations) into this and the very same people get all worked up and scream; "ANIMAL ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!! there needs to be a LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!"

The vet or farmer who sticks his entire lubed arm inside a cow to implant sperm is putting a lot more in there a lot rougher than "Joe" and his 6 inch wonder pickle, yet the former is just fine and dandy as long as it produces CHEAP meat, and milk, the latter is somehow "abuse", that is so laughably stupid my eyes are watering!

The statements from that study show just how invalid the abuse opinion is;

I want to express love and affection to the animal 74%
have a very close emotional attachment to their animal partners. They report that they love their animal partner as others love their human partner and are devastated when their animal partner dies.They care about the sexual pleasure of the animal as well as their own.

Last edited by Landseer : 09-26-2007 at 11:40 PM.
  #40  
Old 09-27-2007, 07:42 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Duck - I always appreciate your posts, but I have to wonder if you're being disingenuous here. The comments are quite provocative, and I ask readers in advance to ignore much of what you say.

I don't know how much you have followed the Community over the last month or so, but we have gotten into several very hot arguments, so much so that several Moderators have stepped in to quiet things. Until this post, everyone was quite polite, while being frank in expressing professional views directly on the subject.

If I were able I'd take this post off immediately, but I'm not presently even going to ask Russ RuBert to do so, hoping this will help show everyone the reason for moderation and consideration of others' views. (Sorry if I seem overly critical to you, as I undoubtedly will, but this sort of thing cannot continue.)
  #41  
Old 09-27-2007, 08:27 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

I don't find Duck's comments and observations insulting or out of line, and in fact I find them interesting. McCarthy may very well have had this in mind as she said, we don't know what he had in mind when creating the work but I emailed the gallery in NYC to ask if he has an email they know of.

It's a fact that there's a LOT of deadbeats in the inner city slums who milk the social welfare system and laugh or brag about it, and it's a published fact. I remember reading back in the 70's in the newspapers regarding welfare, food stamps, public housing and single mothers who have multiple children from multiple fathers, many of whom they don't even remember the names of let alone where they went.

There were drugs, welfare checks with food stamps on the first of the month and the paper interviewed a number of them for the story, and basically they said they had MORE children on purpose as each one added an additional chunk to their monthly welfare check PLUS free milk, baby food and food stamps.

They were also given WIC programs and more. These girls basically made a career out of collecting welfare, food stamps, WIC and public paid housing in the public "projects"- high rise crime-ridden slum apartments operated by the NYC dept of Social Services and paid for by the tax payers- the ones who WORK for a living. You give, they TAKE and then want MORE and then sit on their butts waiting for the next check.
The boys/young men did nothing but sew their wild oats all over the neighborhood with multiple girls and then just left, most didn't have jobs or they sold drugs for cash.

This was not limited to any age, race or color in particular, though certain neighborhoods where the slum "projects" were built attracted specific races and colors.

You could change the color or race of either of the figures in McCarthy's sculpture to suggest what Duck is thinking and it might "work", though the clothing is a bit too "middle-class" I think for that to really be the case of the sculptor's intent.

The father figure does not have a happy face as I noted before, it's almost a tragic expression, it could be a key or it could mean nothing more than poor modelling, or an unimportant detail.

I don't really care for implying that the goat was somehow some sort of "last choice" one step above a rock with a hole in it in the back-yard when everything else failed- to be used as a sex toy and discarded after the act, that is insulting to the person who genuinely cares for the animal (per the German University study above in my earlier post) as a partner, not a toy to be used and thrown away.

I don't view this as some sort of "last option" when everything failed and a person doesn't even have cash to buy a $5 street walker for 15 minutes so they "do" a handy nearby goat.
  #42  
Old 09-27-2007, 10:51 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Landseer wrote in "Nude Chocolate Christ" thread a few months ago:
Quote:
This "jesus this jesus that, god this god that, lord this lord that, the bible says... is as offensive to me (and others who don't believe in this) as posts extolling the glory of satan, pan the goat god, or bestiality might be to you.
If I have to read about god, jesus, lord, bible and all this stuff on a sculpture forum and somehow that applies to art, then I could start posting about bestiality and sex with animals in art and sculpture though the ages and provide images of a variety of ancient and historical art depicting it from museums and elsewhere- it would be as offensive to you as this religious stuff is to me.

So the solution is we DROP this religion stuff except in the context of describing a sculpture one is making- "this is a new bronze cross I am making for so and so church" is describing the sculpture while
"this is a new bronze cross I am making for so and so church for the glory of god thru the service of jesus christ" is pushing religion, and we are going to have stuff like "this is a new bronze cross I am making for so and so church for the glory of god thru the service of jesus christ" then I should start posting about the bestiality related artwork and provide links for more information on the benefits of bestiality since they would be relative to one another and sculpture/artwork.
Wish is granted. Bestiality propaganda herein. Offense taken. I'm a Christian and don't push religion but only briefly ever mention God or the bible. However, you've extensively promoted your beliefs far beyond discussing just the artwork. Double standard I would say.
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  #43  
Old 09-27-2007, 11:01 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

As a devout atheist, I respectfully tip my hat to you Tamara for taking a stand.
  #44  
Old 09-27-2007, 11:01 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Well, fritchy…delete the post, but I’m bettin that’s exactly what McCathy is saying with this work.
  #45  
Old 09-27-2007, 11:50 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Tamara- thanks for hijacking this thread for an agenda, exactly what is your purpose for posting this HERE?

I see your post, which took an entire paragraph of mine from a totally unrelated post in another thread, made months ago- as being purposefully stuck in here to cause yet another flame war like the one we just had over Religion in another thread. Fritchie had to step into that one, and I am reporting it to the moderators as flame-bait with the appropriate button.

This is not bestiality "propaganda" GlennT made claims and statements on the subject of the sculpture and the sculpture itself, such as;

Quote:
I'm unfamiliar with interspecies animal sex being part of the natural order.
Beastiality is not an uncomfortable question, it is a sickness.
I see little difference between beastiality and pedophilia. In either case, it involves the rape of innocent life, and a supreme abuse of trust.
Again, I point to the fact that because people murder people, this is not a good reason to say that rape is not so bad. Likewise, because animals are abused in many ways that are more horrific than thru beastiality, that does not make beastiality less of a crime. ( except in Sweden )
I posted the facts and references, as well as responded each time, that is what a discussion forum is for, the rest all fell in place as it evolved- global warming, society and all the rest.

The sculpture happens to be ABOUT bestiality as it's main theme and it's use in art, both are a personal interest of mine, which is why the post is here in "Sculpture focus." This is not stating my "beliefs" or religion- in fact those had not been mentioned here and all was going nicely and politely, until your post.
If someone is going to make a statement about animal abuse, I point out the hypocracy of meat eating, and the studies, I also countered erroneous statements with the facts and that's not "propaganda" either.

Quote:
...far beyond discussing just the artwork.
Sorry, I was unaware that there was a word-count limit on the length of comments in a post about a sculpture and all of it's side issues, can you tell me what the word-count limit IS here? I never saw it mentioned before and I do like to include a lot of details and I do typically make long posts, that's my style and always has been.

Going back to page one in this thread and reading it start to finish shows a lot of great sub-topics evolved along with some good comments and observations by others.

Feel free to start your own topic on sculpture and religion, in another thread with the appropriate title.

Last edited by Landseer : 09-28-2007 at 02:23 AM.
  #46  
Old 09-27-2007, 11:51 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Hi, I don't think this piece has anything to do with birth control or anything else other than a popular form of reverse racism. It's a white man teaching his white son how to screw the sheep, goats, rams, whatever... (pick your minority)...

The stereotype of evil old white men running the world and controlling everything for their devilish plots and schemes is nothing new. This sculpture validates the myth for anyone who is not a white male and ironically for many that are. It is a propaganda piece to further rationalize the notion that white men breed evil. This sculpture has nothing to do with sex any more than rape does, it is about power/control, social agenda, and ultimately anger and resentment.
  #47  
Old 09-27-2007, 11:57 PM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Joe, it's nice to know a tolerant athiest, one who understands that others have beliefs as well and they are valuable. I think it demonstrates great wisdom..
  #48  
Old 09-28-2007, 12:23 AM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Quote:
it is a propaganda piece to further rationalize the notion that white men breed evil.
It could be that too, in fact that interpretation also makes some kind of sense, and father's tragic, blank looking almost mechanical facial expression could fit that.
Still hope to contact McCarthy and see if he will offer some insites, but I won't hold my breath trying to get hold of him, he doesn't even seem to have a web site or blog, or else I just didn't find it yet.
  #49  
Old 09-28-2007, 12:31 AM
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Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

Thanks Steven.

"There are two statements about human beings that are true: that all human beings are alike, and that all are different. On those two facts all human wisdom is founded." (Mark Van Doren)

"There is a foolish corner in the brain of the wisest man."(Aristotle)
  #50  
Old 09-28-2007, 12:42 PM
Tlouis Tlouis is offline
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Question Re: Cultural Gothic- Paul McCarthy

If McCarthy is interested in exploring the many facets of human degredation, I wonder why he didn't show the goat humping the boy. Undoubtedly that would have generated an even greater firestorm of posts.

Duck...Sorry I missed reading your post. It's obviously been deleted as I can't find it anywhere.
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