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  #126  
Old 01-30-2010, 10:26 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

Scout, sorry if you feel guilty, but if you re-read my post, i acknowledge all that.
I'm just stating something from the viewpoint of someone who dealt with people living & working from their happy place. i guess I should mention that reality eventually caught up with them, leaving more to process than if they'd just faced things head on.
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  #127  
Old 01-30-2010, 10:33 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

Guilty? I'll have to think about that one. Scout
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  #128  
Old 01-30-2010, 10:33 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

If I understand grommet and evaldart's descriptions, one's consciousness is supposed to be as though you let whomever happened to be going by your home come into your living room to stay there and do whatever they liked, and you should be fine with the results. So, depending on the neighborhood, your living room could have Aunt Myrtle, the postman, Crazy Eddie, a family of racoons, a priest, the Farffle family (all ten of them), Lulu the stripper, Phil the bookeeper, a local garage rock band and three teenage girl groupies, Norm who sings like Pavorati in the shower, several deer, a bunch of squirrrels, a redheaded woodpecker and its brood, and Tiny Tim.

Well, God bless us all, but I like a little more say over who hangs out in my own livingroom. Phil has got to go, he's too quiet!

So, to say that whatever shows up is reality is just another way of saying, "I'm too lazy to take command of my own consciouness". Reality certainly contains more than whatever happens to squeeze into my little vessel of human consciousness anyways, so I may as well be selective about what portion of reality I claim for my own. If beauty happens to be one area of dominant focus in my world, that is my perogative and it is not any less a reality than if someone else focuses on other things.
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  #129  
Old 01-30-2010, 10:46 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

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Originally Posted by GlennT View Post

So, to say that whatever shows up is reality is just another way of saying, "I'm too lazy to take command of my own consciouness". Reality certainly contains more than whatever happens to squeeze into my little vessel of human consciousness anyways, so I may as well be selective about what portion of reality I claim for my own. If beauty happens to be one area of dominant focus in my world, that is my perogative and it is not any less a reality than if someone else focuses on other things.
It's a problem when people vote from their happy place & not reality.
Besides, Tiny Tim is a really good cook, which you'd never know unless you took the time to find out.
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  #130  
Old 01-30-2010, 10:55 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

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It's a problem when people vote from their happy place & not reality.
True. Fortunately, we are waking up as was evident in Massachusetts.

My wife is such a good cook that I really don't need Tiny Tim for that, although he is welcome to help clean the dishes.
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  #131  
Old 01-30-2010, 11:11 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

It's a matter of degrees isn't it?

Yay Massachusetts! Scout
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  #132  
Old 01-30-2010, 11:53 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

Oh I too quite enjoy reality and am even distrustful of much of the "unreal" stuff that ceaselessly scampers and rampages on the inside. But I also realize that, in much the same ways that language fails thinking, so do images (images are far better, mind you, but still limiting). So the obvious thing to do is to "depict" those things and notions that are NOT transferrable by any recognition. Forms preside and get attached to reality through action and process - and so an experience has been deployed or set-upon-reality...not to serve or participate but to meddle. Everytime a creative impulse is unbound enough to invade reality without serving it..it has changed it. When the creative imulse merely behaves, as part of the predictable flow, it hasnt changed anything. And the looking-after of an ever changing reality is better than merely following orders and being a good citizen of some watered down, collective reality that succumbs to function. Drink your reality straight...in one shot...the liquor cabinet is way inside...its okay, you're old enough for a drink.

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  #133  
Old 01-30-2010, 12:13 PM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

Do I need a drink to make a head or tail out of that last ramble?
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  #134  
Old 01-30-2010, 02:35 PM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

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Whats inside of you is the absolutely unique combinations of wonder and thought (hopelessly foriegn to any other perceiver) that mixes to eventually become an experience....and THAT is what goes outside...where it becomes palpable and texturous ans massive.
This is where Joe would exclaim "Bingo!" Thanks for this E.
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  #135  
Old 01-30-2010, 02:48 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

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Yay Massachusetts! Scout
Wow, seriously? I am upending the shot and moving on, incredulous once again, but setting it aside.



So a generic ideal of "beauty" becomes a focal point so you don't have to look at who you're f****** or being f***** by?
Well, that's a survival tactic, but how about if if we just stop doing that stuff, then we could exercise our larger aesthetic vocabulary.
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Last edited by grommet : 01-31-2010 at 10:37 AM.
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  #136  
Old 02-03-2010, 03:44 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

French linguists (among others) taught us a lot about the reality-thing last century. It’s very easy for us to think that there’s a simple relationship between a WORD and its OBJECT, with the result that language and reality seem well connected and stable. Example used by one linguist: the phrase ‘the 10.30 from Paris’. Anyone who travels by train takes this relationship between words and reality for granted. Of course, in reality the ‘train’ may not be the same one (change of whole train or its parts); it may not have the same driver, will not be powered by the same electricity and will not contain the same passengers. It will not set out at 10.30 either, as we all know from travelling by train. So, the phrase ‘the 10.30 from Paris’ does not tell us very much about reality at all, although it is not, clearly, entirely without value.

When we use SIGNS (words, painted or sculpted shapes; images, etc) we are not, then, representing reality at all. These 20 century explorations of the problems with relating to ‘reality’ led to a loss of faith in the capacity of language (verbal and visual) to represent the world – hence science has moved to mathematics; Picasso went cubist (one-point perspective is WRONG); artists went ‘inside’ (abstraction).

So - artists who propose to be representing reality are WRONG. Now, beauty – perhaps it can be represented, and the most authentic beauty is, as Chris says, from ‘inside’. It probably still all ends in failure, though, as the sculpture will end up being the ‘sign’ of the ‘interior’ feelings that inspire it, not the thing itself. This may also explain why, when we come back to a sculpture after a break, it has 'changed', or seems now different or, sometimes, seems a failure. The interior emoton that set the work going has itself changed, and the sculpted forms may no longer relate to what you originally felt. The original feeling may also not have a stable 'form' of its own, with the result that seeking the form for the feeling in the sculpture depends on holding on to a SET idea (contrary to nature) and finding a set form for it too. This has all got to end in failure (As one artist said, art is never finished, only abandoned).
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  #137  
Old 02-03-2010, 09:35 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

Quote:
French linguists (among others) taught us a lot about the reality-thing last century
That is one of the funniest things I've read, so I had to comment. I guess the Eastern "thinkers", over 4000 years ago, must have published in the wrong journals. They said the same things the French linguist did, and a whole lot more, but alas, they said it in plain language everyday folk could read. Where were the French back then? They must have been confusing the map for the territory (one of French 20th century discoveries?). I'm glad you are finally discovering the nature of reality.

Quote:
(As one artist said, art is never finished, only abandoned).
That one artist represents too small of a sampling to be statistically valid...was he French?

p.s. my wife got her degree, with some kind of honors, in linguistics. We stopped joking about that years ago.
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  #138  
Old 02-03-2010, 09:46 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

Hi Joe - I'm not proposing that there's anything new under the sun here. But there was a number of related intellectual and artistic shifts in the 20th century that followed from the work of a number of thinkers.
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  #139  
Old 02-03-2010, 10:03 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

Quote:
I'm not proposing that there's anything new under the sun here. But there was a number of related intellectual and artistic shifts in the 20th century that followed from the work of a number of thinkers.
What I'm proposing in this regard is that those "shifts" were not as profound as academics, artists and other thinkers want them to be. Careers need to be made, even at the expense of progress (by which I mean something other than overstating, restating and confusing the obvious). Tell me, or show me something that I didn't know, or should know. That is progress. That is what Eastern "thinkers" called waking up.
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  #140  
Old 02-03-2010, 10:37 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

There is a difference surely between our just 'knowing', or intuiting, stuff and major paradigm shifts in history. The former is what we all can have; the latter is what these thinkers (and artists) have established as common currency in the culture.
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  #141  
Old 02-03-2010, 10:52 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

I, for one, have not been looking to French intellectuals for any major (or minor) historical paradigm shifts, nor breathlessly waiting for them to do my thinking for me.

Last edited by GlennT : 02-03-2010 at 11:54 AM.
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  #142  
Old 02-03-2010, 11:52 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

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Originally Posted by Portoro View Post
OK, let's get specific: where's the 'beauty' in this gorgeous little Cubist-inspired piece?

I think it resides in consideration interpreted as being "beautiful". The problem with beauty is that it is paradoxical, pure irony, the opposite of what you/we think it is, a surprise. Confused with prettiness, in the superficial sense, beauty also harbors or manifests "ugliness" just as effortlessly. It is pure consideration manifesting itself in the object; Why vertical instead of horizontal, why flat instead of round, why happy instead of melancholy etc.. When we call something beautiful, what we are doing is identifying with with another persons considerations and while those considerations can often times be lacking, they can never be truly ugly. Perhaps our understanding of beauty could best be served by identifying its opposite and to me it is not "ugliness", (that is the opposite of "pretty") but rather a sort of disregard.
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  #143  
Old 02-04-2010, 01:57 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

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I, for one, have not been looking to French intellectuals for any major (or minor) historical paradigm shifts, nor breathlessly waiting for them to do my thinking for me.
But, Glenn, that's not how major shifts work - you end up absorbing the culture around you, no conscious choosing involved. You don't get to 'think about it' and accept or reject it. Take post-modernism. Look at all those kids on the streets with their chunky boots, frilly skirts and denim jackets - that's post-modern dressing (mixing styles and playing with stylistic juxtapositions). These kids didn't deliberately choose post-modernism. It reshaped the culture, and by that means we all became 'post-modern', or at least, subject to its influences. On the other hand, the architect who designed the new Sainsbury Wing of the National Gallery in London - he was part of the post-modern movement in architecture, a quite deliberate choice to move and influence the cultural status quo. HE gets to be a 'mover', the kids on the street only get to play the game. So, you may find that the French have been a more important infuence on you that you like to think. And that's culture - you can't control it.
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Last edited by Portoro : 02-04-2010 at 04:37 AM.
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  #144  
Old 02-04-2010, 07:49 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

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.And that's culture - you can't control it.
Ah, there's the rub. In fact, I very much control it. Right at my doorstep, literally, and at the gates of my consciousness. Post-modernism offers nothing to me, so why march to the beat of that drummer?

What did you mean, you don't get to accept or reject the culture around you? Perhaps because I live in America, where we don't have the culture police insisting that we conform, things are different than in England.
Actually, this may be the case, as I just read the following, one of the best indictments or proofs that this is in fact the age of stupidity (which I also refuse to absorb and call my own):

" A British government-run jobs center rejected an ad from a company specifying that applicants 'must be very reliable and hardworking'. A government official told the company that it could get sued 'for discriminating against unreliable people.'
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  #145  
Old 02-04-2010, 09:30 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

Quote:
Actually, this may be the case, as I just read the following, one of the best indictments or proofs that this is in fact the age of stupidity (which I also refuse to absorb and call my own):
ah, there's the rub, you are unwittingly participating...
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  #146  
Old 02-04-2010, 09:44 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

Glenn's "age of stupidity" refers to just the usual human throes of a misapplied consciousness as it seeks to take pertinence from that same place that it receives its food and shelter. And that aint never gonna work. Its a common misconception that progress occurs by the flourishing of civilization. Actually, progress occurs during special moments of "APARTNESS" of one lonely wriggler; then this internal and unique and individual revelation gets hauled back to the tribe, gets poorly communicated and ends up mis-applied in the interest of function. But SO POWERFUL AND EFFECTIVE, is this tidbit of alien intelligence that it can allow the group new successes even after having been distorted, twisted and misshapen. So you see Glenn, the past is always stupider, ...no matter what you think you presently observe.

Last edited by evaldart : 02-04-2010 at 09:56 AM.
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  #147  
Old 02-04-2010, 10:43 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

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the past is always stupider, ...no matter what you think you presently observe.
This sentence confuses knowledge for wisdom. This age has more knowledge than the past, but much less wisdom. That is the the determinant I refer to when I use the phrase " the age of stupidity."

In the example of the Britsh job center, the knowledge enabling us fly to the moon instead of merely moving around in a horse-driven cart has no bearing on the fact that it took all of human history up until this era before a job center could determine such qualities as "reliable" and "hard-working" to be too potentially controversial to advertise for.
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  #148  
Old 02-04-2010, 10:57 AM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

Glenn, evidence of a continually improving intellect is not to be found in the ever silly implementations of methodologies concerning how folks regard each other. And "wisdom" is not a quantifiable posession. Wisdom is comparable to insight and we humans, ever better at the commandeering of nature, are finding development without any sharing. Our grunts, groans and scribbles are saved for the mundane...while our unbound and barely communicable thrashings (wisdom at play) permit growth.
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  #149  
Old 02-04-2010, 11:48 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

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This sentence confuses knowledge for wisdom. This age has more knowledge than the past, but much less wisdom. That is the the determinant I refer to when I use the phrase " the age of stupidity."

In the example of the Britsh job center, the knowledge enabling us fly to the moon instead of merely moving around in a horse-driven cart has no bearing on the fact that it took all of human history up until this era before a job center could determine such qualities as "reliable" and "hard-working" to be too potentially controversial to advertise for.
You are mistaking the process of inventing new wisdom for a conclusion. Life is trial and error, as is the creation of wisdom.
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  #150  
Old 02-04-2010, 01:23 PM
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Re: Why Beauty Matters........

Previous to the age of stupidity, we had the age of drunkeness...

In the good ol' days, an average american, be they man, woman or child, drank 40 gallons of alcohol a year, versus about 2 today.

Now thats Wisdom!

We were also Wise enough to have slavery, prevent women from voting, and sell Laudnum over the counter.
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