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  #51  
Old 05-03-2008, 08:08 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

So I'm curious here Dr. Smith, out of all those numbers that you just sputtered out (all of whom would get chucked out of the raft I imagine) what is your grand answer? Should we just say, eliminate 5.9 billion people and return to a nice cozy 4 million or so that the Earth can tolerate?

I've watched enough episodes of lost in space to spot a nut and no, I havn't seen any scientific journals demonstrating that nuts have "spiritual energy"...
  #52  
Old 05-03-2008, 08:17 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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So I'm curious here Dr. Smith, out of all those numbers that you just sputtered out (all of whom would get chucked out of the raft I imagine) what is your grand answer? Should we just say, eliminate 5.9 billion people and return to a nice cozy 4 million or so that the Earth can tolerate?

I've watched enough episodes of lost in space to spot a nut and no, I havn't seen any scientific journals demonstrating that nuts have "spiritual energy"...

Beginning to look like a lot like a personal attack.
  #53  
Old 05-03-2008, 08:44 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

Looked that way when you chucked out 5.9999999 billion people out of the raft for your dog.

Thanks for the discussion, it's always illuminating looking into such minds.
  #54  
Old 05-03-2008, 10:06 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

I wasn't kidding! I'd eat my shoes if it meant surviving. Scout
  #55  
Old 05-04-2008, 07:19 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

So Landseer, the fact of the matter is this... If this were the last boat after the apocalypse with limited space, you and I would both be in the water. You because you wouldn't contribute to the species survival, and me because I'm not nubile enough. The dog, however, would be in the boat.
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  #56  
Old 05-07-2008, 09:31 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

A whole range of animal studies now suggest that the roots of cognition are deep, widespread, and highly malleable.

Just how easily new mental skills can evolve is perhaps best illustrated by dogs. Most owners talk to their dogs and expect them to understand. But this canine talent wasn't fully appreciated until a border collie named Rico appeared on a German TV game show in 2001. Rico knew the names of some 200 toys and acquired the names of new ones with ease.

Researchers at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig heard about Rico and arranged a meeting with him and his owners. That led to a scientific report revealing Rico's uncanny language ability: He could learn and remember words as quickly as a toddler. Other scientists had shown that two-year-old children—who acquire around ten new words a day—have an innate set of principles that guides this task. The ability is seen as one of the key building blocks in language acquisition. The Max Planck scientists suspect that the same principles guide Rico's word learning, and that the technique he uses for learning words is identical to that of humans.

...One of them—the researchers call her Betsy—has a vocabulary of more than 300 words.

"Even our closest relatives, the great apes, can't do what Betsy can do—hear a word only once or twice and know that the acoustic pattern stands for something," said Juliane Kaminski, a cognitive psychologist who worked with Rico and is now studying Betsy.

"Dogs' understanding of human forms of communication is something new that has evolved," Kaminski said, "something that's developed in them because of their long association with humans." Although Kaminski has not yet tested wolves, she doubts they have this language skill.

Kaminski handed Schaefer a stack of color photographs and asked her to choose one. Each image depicted a dog's toy against a white background—toys Betsy had never seen before. They weren't actual toys; they were only images of toys. Could Betsy connect a two-dimensional picture to a three-dimensional object?

Schaefer held up a picture of a fuzzy, rainbow-colored Frisbee and urged Betsy to find it. Betsy studied the photograph and Schaefer's face, then ran into the kitchen, where the Frisbee was placed among three other toys and photographs of each toy. Betsy brought either the Frisbee or the photograph of the Frisbee to Schaefer every time.


"People were surprised to discover that chimpanzees make tools," said Alex Kacelnik, a behavioral ecologist at Oxford University, referring to the straws and sticks chimpanzees shape to pull termites from their nests.

Now we're finding these kinds of exceptional behaviors in some species of birds.

"This is not trivial," Kacelnik continued. "It means that evolution can invent similar forms of advanced intelligence more than once—that it's not something reserved only for primates or mammals."

New Caledonian crows are among the most skilled of tool-making and tool-using birds, forming probes and hooks from sticks and leaf stems to poke into the crowns of the palm trees, where fat grubs hide. Since these birds, like chimpanzees, make and use tools, researchers can look for similarities in the evolutionary processes that shaped their brains. Something about the environments of both species favored the evolution of tool-making neural powers.

...Betty flies into a room. She's a glossy-black bird with a crow's bright, inquisitive eyes, and she immediately spies the test before her: a glass tube with a tiny basket lodged in its center. The basket holds a bit of meat. The scientists had placed two pieces of wire in the room. One was bent into a hook, the other was straight. They figured Betty would choose the hook to lift the basket by its handle.

But experiments don't always go according to plan. Another crow had stolen the hook before Betty could find it. Betty is undeterred. She looks at the meat in the basket, then spots the straight piece of wire. She picks it up with her beak, pushes one end into a crack in the floor, and uses her beak to bend the other end into a hook. Thus armed, she lifts the basket out of the tube.

"This was the first time Betty had ever seen a piece of wire like this," Kacelnik said. "But she knew she could use it to make a hook and exactly where she needed to bend it to make the size she needed."

They gave Betty other tests, each requiring a slightly different solution, such as making a hook out of a flat piece of aluminum rather than a wire. Each time, Betty invented a new tool and solved the problem. "It means she had a mental representation of what it was she wanted to make. Now that," Kacelnik said, "is a major kind of cognitive sophistication."

This is the larger lesson of animal cognition research: It humbles us. We are not alone in our ability to invent or plan or to contemplate ourselves—or even to plot and lie.

Most provocatively, her research demonstrates that some birds possess what is often considered another uniquely human skill: the ability to recall a specific past event. Scrub jays, for example, seem to know how long ago they cached a particular kind of food, and they manage to retrieve it before it spoils.

Human cognitive psychologists call this kind of memory "episodic memory" and argue that it can exist only in a species that can mentally travel back in time.

ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/animal-minds/virginia-morell-text
  #57  
Old 05-07-2008, 10:17 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

If only the bluejays that nest every year in the cornice above my front door could learn from experience that every time my wife and I open the door, it doesn't mean that we are going to harm them, the mother bird could then stay put in the nest instead of flying into the trees.

My reassuring language has not made much difference either.

I do have conversations with the woodchucks under my studio, but only when I speak in rapid percussive knocks on the floor.
  #58  
Old 05-07-2008, 10:20 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

This is pure speculation on behalf of the psychologists reached through presumptuous deduction and these same folks are the ones who said black kids learn differently than white kids than asian kids and indian kids and it was one of the most overblown generalizations in the modern scientific community, not to mention damaging and predominantly false.. Indeed ants make bridges and birds make nests and spiders make very elaborate traps and none of these can be attributed to episodic memory, but rather instinct and genetic programming. Nonetheless, I won't chuck you out of the raft for my ant-farm.

  #59  
Old 05-08-2008, 12:06 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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If only the bluejays that nest every year in the cornice above my front door could learn from experience that every time my wife and I open the door, it doesn't mean that we are going to harm them, the mother bird could then stay put in the nest instead of flying into the trees.

My reassuring language has not made much difference either.
They learned humans are fickle and can't be trusted, because while you may mean no harm, your neighbor is throwing rocks at them to chase them away so they dont krap on his or her new car's finish. Your cat may love birds, but your neighbor's cat wants to kill them.
  #60  
Old 05-08-2008, 12:09 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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This is pure speculation on behalf of the psychologists reached through presumptuous deduction and these same folks are the ones who said black kids learn differently than white kids...
Oh you must mean WAYYY back, when you were kid in the 1920's or something- they thought being gay was a mental illness that needed treatment and electr-shock too, but science progresses over time, NOW we know, as we have for a few decades- that black kids are not sheep, nor do they prefer to climb trees, eat banannas and grubs.
  #61  
Old 05-08-2008, 07:32 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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They learned humans are fickle and can't be trusted, because while you may mean no harm, your neighbor is throwing rocks at them to chase them away so they dont krap on his or her new car's finish. Your cat may love birds, but your neighbor's cat wants to kill them.
What a cop-out! After discoursing on the memory skills of scrub-jays, you want to make up a theory to explain the lack of memory skills in my actual- life bluejays. It is a self-preservational instinct that has them afraid of humans, not a memory of any actions by myself or my neighbors. These bluejays have nested here year after year in the same spot. I like having them their, my neighbors never attack them, they have no actual violent episode in their memory to which they are responding. Plus, when the newborns are hatched, my wife and I climb a ladder and look at them. They look back at us. We don't touch them. They don't flinch. Their earliest memory of humans is benign. If memory was the working factor, it would be just the opposite response when I walk by.
They would think, " Oh yeah, 'tis another friendly blue-coated scruffy-headed land-walker who shares our nesting area."
Even if some neighbor in another area threw rocks, which they don't, the birds would remember our place and us as a safe haven, distinct from the memory of a different place of danger.
  #62  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:42 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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but science progresses over time.
Our understanding of science progresses over time, science itself has always been what it is, at least since the inflationary period ended. The laws of physics today are the very same laws that were in place billions of years ago. There are those however who would like to rewrite science to fit with their views of what the world should be like in order to fit with their political goals and agendas and the evidence for that is overwhelmingly clear. Just ask Al Gore when he invented the internet..
That same hobgoblin wants to tax carbon and is spending 300 million to drive a campaign of fear surrounding global warming. This agenda is driven by the same environmentalist nuts who predicted in 1975 that earth was going to be in an ice-age today..

You can tote around all you like about the spiritual energy of carrots and lettuce. I don't understand why you are quoting cognitive psychologists such as Ms. Kiminski though, why don't you just ask your dog?
  #63  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:05 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

Why I like dogs-
They are cute, attentive, and dumb enough that they need me.
On the other hand, they stink when they are wet, dont dispose of their own poo, and are dumb enough that they need me.

Why I like people-
they can carry on a conversation, cook a meal, use a toilet, write a book, play in a band, change their mind, love me back as an intellectual equal, make beer, sausage, and bread, get a job and move out, advance intellectually til they are smarter than me, grow food, build buildings, knit a sweater, make a joke, and make art.

Your mileage may vary.
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  #64  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:53 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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Your mileage may vary
Well if you would do a cost benefit analysis you'd find that dogs are a bargain. They cost less to educate, feed, clothe,and house. So unless you spend huge sums of money you end up with a human who has an inferior sense of direction, smell, hearing, sight,not very bright and is a poor companion I do grant that human taste buds are usually superior. But again, dogs are less argumentative, more loyal and trustworthy, more affectionate, better at getting vermin, faster runners. They reproduce freely and cheaply and for the most part are self maintaining. However,dogs suck at creativity and use of tools--but those are costly endeavors and contribute to global warming and not environmentally friendly. So as the economy turns down, turn to dogs.

Oh, and for those people that require admiration, constant ego boosting, and need to be worshiped, guess who wins.

Last edited by jOe~ : 05-08-2008 at 11:59 AM. Reason: Note to Glenn
  #65  
Old 05-08-2008, 12:48 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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What a cop-out! After discoursing on the memory skills of scrub-jays, you want to make up a theory to explain the lack of memory skills in my actual- life bluejays. It is a self-preservational instinct that has them afraid of humans, not a memory of any actions by myself or my neighbors.
Birds, like most animals are afraid of everything else because they are prey for a variety of preditors - including people (hunters)
The dodo bird was wiped out because they had never seen humans before and didn't view them as a threat, so people could walk right up to them and kill them.
Its ingrained, BUT ALSO learned when that opportunity presents itself, just as it is with a dog whose owner hits them- the dog learns to FLINCH and duck to avoid the hits- thats a learned behavior from associating the negative contact with a suddenly raised hand or arm. You see this behaviour in every dog owned by a hitter even when the dog is adopted by someone else.
A wild animal who learns people throw rocks at them or shoot bullets quickly learns people are bad news, people are also totally unpredictable- one person may want to put out food while another may want to set the animal on fire- how's the animal to tell the difference in intend!
  #66  
Old 05-08-2008, 12:57 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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That same hobgoblin wants to tax carbon and is spending 300 million to drive a campaign of fear surrounding global warming. This agenda is driven by the same environmentalist nuts who predicted in 1975 that earth was going to be in an ice-age today..
Global climate change is a fact, call it warming call it shifting, call it change- whatever you wish, the fact remains, and is proven via photos, satellite imagery, historical records, ice cores etc etc- the only "if" is the CAUSE(S)
formerly ice-capped mountains that have had snow and ice on them year-round for hundreds of years are rapidly going bare or are already bare for the first time in recorded history, polar ice shelves hundreds of feet thick there for ages are cracking and large chunks falling off into the ocean, glacial ice retreating rapidly etc.

The cause? who knows! sun spots, increased solar output, air pollution, earth cycle- take your pick, but one thing is certain- driving you car 4 miles less a week, recycling your newspaper and changing your lightbulbs is going to do as much to reverse this as trying to empty the Great Lakes with a teaspoon- you may as well piss into the wind.

Might want to see some before and after photos, just a few I am aware of;

http://www.effectofglobalwarming.com...-pictures.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...ing/html/1.stm

Glacial change
American photographer Gary Braasch has been documenting images of environmental change since 1999. The image on the left is from an 1859 etching of the Rhone glacier in Valais, Switzerland, and shows ice filling the valley.
In 2001, the glacier had shrunk by some 2.5km, and its 'snout' had shifted about 450 metres higher up.
  #67  
Old 05-08-2008, 01:32 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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driving you car 4 miles less a week, recycling your newspaper and changing your lightbulbs is going to do as much to reverse this as trying to empty the Great Lakes with a teaspoon- you may as well piss into the wind.
So then we agree that the amount of impact humans have on global climate change is completely insignificant. Thanks for that.
  #68  
Old 05-08-2008, 06:08 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

I've been reading in the general news lately that the Earth overall may cool instead of warm for about the next decade.

How unhappy that must make agents like the BBC, which regularly predict near-immediate doom. They're the people giving most publicity over the last year or so to melting of the Arctic ice and opening of the Northwest sea passage.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:45 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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So then we agree that the amount of impact humans have on global climate change is completely insignificant. Thanks for that.
I didn't say what we have DONE is insignificant, I said nothing we do NOW is going to have any impact reversing this. The silly act of recycling your plastic grocery bag, newspaper and changing your light bulbs supposedly to "save the environment" isn't even going to put the slightest dent in any of the problems.

We are not THE cause of climate change, but we probably contributed to it at least to a certain degree over the last 150 years.
In the 19th century just about everything mechanical ran on steam engines- burning wood or dirty coal to produce the energy.
massive amounts of trees were cut down to build railroads using wood track ties and telegraph poles spanning the country, massive bridges and buildings- you can see old photos of trees cut down that were so large in diameter it took one truck to haul ONE log.
Millions of board feet of lumber was squandered on things like temporary exhibitions in Chicago 1893, boardwalks etc
The building I lived in in NYC was the power plant for the cable car line, 11 massive high pressure boilers burning dirty coal 24/7 was what powered the system and the only thing that accomplished for all that pollution and resources used was moving people from one place to another on wheels.

So much dirty coal was burned in the cities that building facades turned BLACK, that's why the white glazed terra cotta was used starting in the 1910's- it was actually advertised as being low maint and easy to clean the coal soot from- an improvement over the unglazed material that the soot was difficult and costly to remove from.

Now of course we don't burn coal quite like that but the US population has tripled since then and everyone drives CARS, trucks, buses instead of horses, and the power plants which burn coal or natural gas provide electric that was a new invention in the 19th century and not widely in use- replacing the inefficient steam engines.
So while we have a different polution and less from burning dirty coal, we now burn massive amounts of fuel oil for heat, gasoline and drive cars, what's more there are 300% more of us than the 1800's.

I have no doubt the amount of krap we spew into the air, water, ground, lakes, streams etc has a negative effect, the acid rain in urban cities, LA, notably Rome and others where car exhaust creates a grey haze which has been rapidly etching and destroying marble and other materials, some cities like LA even have "spare the air days" because the pollution is so bad when there is an inversion and the stuff just STAYS near the ground.

All that is localized damage, so who is to say how much global damage that has and what it does over the long term- no one knows, but acid rain is killing Vermont's maple trees and the syrup industry and has been traced to smokestack pollution from other states supposedly in a large part .

We cut down entire forests, slash and burn what's left over, we also cut trees down for housing, lumbers, malls and more- trees produce oxygen and absorb CO2, but massive forest fires burn up millions of acres of forests- caused in a large part by us with our FAILED forestry practices of putting out every fire immediately.

Thus the forest floors now have feet thick layers in some places of dry needles and other dead debris, and when a fire hits it all goes up like gasoline. The way it worked before we meddled with that, small fires burned off the small amount of debris but left mature trees alone- their crowns were too high up, but now a fire burns everything to a cinder in a massive firestorm- you see these every summer now in the news.

No matter how its sliced, diced or cut up, the population explosion is behind all of our social and other problems, and no matter how much we recycle, cut back , economize etc it won't make a damn bit of dfference if we keep expanding- any "savings" will be negated by that completely, even if cars get 100 MPG.

So as far as global climate change goes, about all people can do NOW is don't live near the coast, low areas or rivers- cause these areas WILL flood, and more powerfull and frequent record breaking storms may be the new norm, as will drought in some areas and recond-breaking rain/snow in others due to shifting wind currents.
  #70  
Old 05-08-2008, 08:37 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

Oky doky, so stopping it amounts to teaspoons in the great lakes but causing it was simple, just burn a little coal and chop down some trees.. I gotcha.

I did go to an aggy school and you're right, meddling and putting out fires is a bad idea. In fact some forest fires are necessary and fire causes many kinds of pine cones to open up and sprout new pine trees. Old growth forests, such as the ones cut down in the Pacific North West actually contributed a negligible amount of oxygen and most of Earths oxygen is generated in the first 12 inches or so of the ocean surface from algae and other marine plant life. New growth forests on the other hand supply 90% more oxygen than old growth and the people who chop them down aren't really all that stupid, they actually plant new trees where they chop down the old ones which perpetuates a reproduceable and sustainable cycle.

Coal, well, you're right again, coal is dirty just like deisel, but the reason it looks dirty is because of molecule size in the actual emmisions. The molecules are big and thus, heavy. The heavier the molecule, the quicker they fall back to the ground to be recycled. This is all a moot point however as all coal burning plants in the US were retrofitted in the 80's and 90's with clean burning stacks and emit zero pollutants, well, they emit water vapor and I'm sure the environmentalists will try and tax that too. New ethanols and gasolines such as the 91 octane unleaded produce very light, small and invisible molecules and with no lead to weigh them down they can float about in the atmosphere many times higher and longer than deisel output and cause more damage to the atmosphere in general, particularly the upper stratosphere. So again, meddling has been a bad idea... Again, none of this means a hill of beans because one simple fact overshadows it all. The combined amount of human activity including all oil ever burned and all coal and all wood chopped down amounts to less polution than a single volcano can put out around every hundred years. Do global warming and cooling cycles occur? Of course... Do humans have anything to do with it? Highly unlikely..

Will the environmentalist czar-industry continue to place irresponsible taxes and restrictions on citizens of the US when it comes to producing iron as it did with coal and rock? Of course it will and then only countries with no such restrictions like India, Turkey, China will continue to place products on our shelves as we sit around wondering if our dogs can really understand us...
  #71  
Old 05-08-2008, 08:56 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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they actually plant new trees where they chop down the old ones which perpetuates a reproduceable and sustainable cycle.
Only two problems with that, and I'm in the wood products industry, so I know oak, poplar, cherry, mohogany;

1) it takes 100 YEARS to grow a 100 year old tree, these saplings aren't going to grow to 3 feet diameter in 10 years- it takes a lifetime to grow serious trees. Hardwoods like oak take forever and a day to grow.

2) Yes, they replant, BUT they cut down the diverse forest full of oak, cherry, walnut, pine, fir etc etc and plant commercial species like Douglas Fir because that's what is used to make PLYWOOD, chipboard and cheap lumber for building houses.
So we are regrowing one-species forests which is bad from every angle you look at, and it's bad because it become very susceptable to disease or pests that can wipe out entire forests, such as happened with Dutch Elm disease on American Elm trees- killing entire tree-lined streets and parks in one slash;

Dutch elm disease is a fungal disease of elm trees which is spread by the elm bark beetle. Although believed to be originally native to Asia, it has been accidentally introduced into America and Europe, where it has devastated native populations of elms which had not had the opportunity to evolve resistance to the disease.
In about 1967, a new, far more virulent strain arrived in Britain on a shipment of Rock Elm logs from North America, and this strain proved both highly contagious and lethal to all of the European native elms; more than 25 million trees died in the UK alone. By 1990-2000, very few mature elms were left in Britain or much of northern Europe. One of the most distinctive English countryside trees, the English Elm U. procera Salisb is particularly susceptible. Thirty years after the epidemic, these magnificent trees, which often grew to > 45 m high, are long gone.

The disease was first reported in the United States in 1928, with the beetles believed to have arrived in a shipment of logs from the Netherlands destined for the Ohio furniture industry. The disease spread slowly from New England westward and southward, almost completely destroying the famous Elms in the 'Elm City' of New Haven, reaching the Detroit area in 1950, the Chicago area by 1960, and Minneapolis by 1970.


In Toronto, Ontario, as much as 80% of the elm trees have been lost to Dutch elm disease, and many more have fallen victim to the disease in Ottawa and Montreal and other cities during the 1970s and 1980s.


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The combined amount of human activity including all oil ever burned and all coal and all wood chopped down amounts to less polution than a single volcano can put out around every hundred years.
A volcano was the cause of the 1816 era disruption of weather that killed thousands when there was frost and snow in JULY in New England that killed crops in the fields twice, it affected the weather and summer temperatures for several years, BUT, while that was a major eruption that was one thing, COMPOUNDING it by adding human pollution in a finite closed environment doesn't help matters.
All this pollution and krap doesn't drift off into space- it all stays right here trapped by gravity, there's nowhere for it to GO.
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Old 05-08-2008, 09:23 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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A volcano was the cause of the 1816 era disruption of weather that killed thousands when there was frost and snow in JULY in New England that killed crops in the fields twice, it affected the weather and summer temperatures for several years, BUT, while that was a major eruption that was one thing, COMPOUNDING it by adding human pollution in a finite closed environment doesn't help matters.
All this pollution and krap doesn't drift off into space- it all stays right here trapped by gravity, there's nowhere for it to GO.

Actually, 70 thousand years ago a volcano (see the Toba super eruption) is thought to have caused an ice age which nearly wiped out our species. That would have made this entire discussion moot. There were perhaps 10,000 humans left on the globe at that point, so in that light it's entirely possible that some other natural event will occur at any moment which will happily cut us back like the English elm. It's an inevitable cycle of life for any given species, including ourselves to go extinct and that is why I agree and think it is pointless for us to invest so much idiocy in being "green"...

The closed environment statement is only partially correct, of course it has no where to go, it came from here and will go back here. Pollution recycles in the earth bio-system and always has and always will and long after we are gone it will continue right on doing that as if we were never here.
  #73  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:54 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
Actually, 70 thousand years ago a volcano (see the Toba super eruption) is thought to have caused an ice age which nearly wiped out our species. That would have made this entire discussion moot. There were perhaps 10,000 humans left on the globe at that point, so in that light it's entirely possible that some other natural event will occur at any moment which will happily cut us back like the English elm. It's an inevitable cycle of life for any given species, including ourselves to go extinct and that is why I agree and think it is pointless for us to invest so much idiocy in being "green"...
Wasn't aware of that one specifically, but right, every species has a crash.
The Chicxulub crater was more dramatic however, though much older, the meteor impacted at what is now the Southern portion of the Gulf of Mexico. If you can imagine the force of an estimated 6-1/2 mile wide rock moving miles per second hitting what was a shallow sea- the ash from it deposited a layer 1 cm thick in Colorado- found in coal beds as a grey band.
It would have incinerated or blasted everything in a wide circle around the impact.
The crater was discovered by Glen Penfield, a geophysicist who had been working in the Yucatán while looking for oil during the late 1970s. Evidence for the impact origin of the crater includes shocked quartz, a gravity anomaly, and tektites in surrounding areas.

http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/SIC/impac...ng_crater.html


Quote:
The closed environment statement is only partially correct, of course it has no where to go, it came from here and will go back here. Pollution recycles in the earth bio-system and always has and always will and long after we are gone it will continue right on doing that as if we were never here.
True, though if you consider it like a closed room with a sack of plaster on the floor it's all fine, but take the sack and bust it open and start throwing the plaster all over the room with an air hose you would suffocate from the dust, the dust would eventually settle back on the floor though.
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Old 05-08-2008, 11:31 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

In fact, chixulub is only one of hundreds of such impacts throughout time and there are far larger ones. The reason chix stirred up so much trouble was because it hit a massive limestone bed, which vaporized and released tremendous amounts of pure carbon and sulfur dioxide. Temperatures around the globe soared to 500 degrees F. for several hours and anything above ground or larger than a cat was basically cooked alive. Those animals that could bur-rough or go deep enough under water survived. The super caldera in Yellowstone is due any time (geologically) which means it could blow today or in ten thousand years, but it will blow and when it does anything in my area near Denver will be vaporized. Folks on the east or west coast will die of starvation and or freezing, polluted water or other horrors, but they'll survive the initial blast.

Check out the USGS meteor impact survey, I'm going to Beaver-head this summer to look for shatter-cone limestone and or marble in Montana/Idaho.

True, if you kick up a bag of plaster or whatever it can fill a room and choke you, but not if you do it in the super-dome and that's basically what we're talking about here. If you look at it from that scale you can clearly see the overall impact is irrelevant. I am often convinced that the key to a successful sculpture is based around the understanding of scale and proportion and when we fail to recognize the true scope of what we are dealing with then it falls apart and loses validity.

Anyway, closet or superdome, all the more reason to drill/dig/burn it all up so that free-enterprise can do what it does best and fund/create new and better solutions.. Few if any great solutions have ever come from a government or socialist society, or even a dog for that matter.
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Old 05-09-2008, 06:59 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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Pollution recycles in the earth bio-system and always has and always will and long after we are gone it will continue right on doing that as if we were never here.
The nice thing about a statement so stupid is that it clearly shows your bias, and thus your inability to comprehend or be open to the basic facts. But then maybe I'm missing some subtle portion of your thinking as your last line was ..."as if we were never here". Carcinogenic pollutants I guess will recycle, but they may recycle us out of the big picture. That agrees with an earlier statement you made that we will become extinct. So what the hell?
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