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  #26  
Old 05-01-2008, 10:25 PM
steponmebbbboom steponmebbbboom is offline
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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Originally Posted by tobias View Post
I eat meat all the time I wear leather and I think I know what you are getting at.
wow, youre real, uh, real sharp, arent you.

Quote:
There is a very big difference between raising animals for food and clothing and torture . You cant see this.
alright pal, why dont you take a look at this humane society clip and you point out what it is you think i am missing, here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cor1uZ2AM

warning: graphic scenes

Quote:
go ahead you make your self look a fool.
i dare you to reply to this.
  #27  
Old 05-01-2008, 10:29 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

As far as culture, I have no problem with people raising cows for FOOD as long as they are humanely and without pain killed, but the fact is most are brutalized from day one and are not painlessly killed, a Jewish narrated short version documentary on kosher meat practices and how they are NOT humane can be viewed here;

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YZ74SpTA_-o

Be that as it may, PETS are not food animals and my belief is a dog is worth far more as a dog than then few pounds of meat one has on them, a 40 pound dog frankly is not going to have very much meat- unlike say, an 800 pound cow. Yes they eat dogs overseas- I have seen actual web sites in China advertising ST Bernard offspring from their breeding plant for MEAT and its horrid as well as extremely objectionable, and then I'm torn between objecting to what a FOREIGN country does in their own land and acting like another meddlesome, nosey, buttinski, idiot American who feels OUR standards, morals, culture and religion should be the standard and status-quo for the entire world- who feels it's our RIGHT to force everyone else to do what we do.
The Indians don't tell us we can't eat cows they hold sacred, we shouldn't be telling them what to do either.

Whether the dog was starved by, killed by, or later fed by the artist is not the issue, art is not supposed to be cruel, harmful, or fatal to a living sentient animal for the sake of a visual presentation and it doesn't matter if the dog was not fed for 3 minutes 3 hours or 3 days while tied up- he was obviously in an extreme state of malnutrition and probably dehydrated as well, with DOGFOOD making up a sign on the wall near him he could I'm certain SMELL but not reach.
If this was a starving kid from Africa chained there even for 60 seconds you can bet the chit would hit the fan even if he was fed immediately afterwards.
Put your finger in the fire for 2 seconds, it hurts just like it will if held there for 10 seconds- the duration of the time is not important- 2 seconds in the fire is as bad as a minute, there's no seconds in between that where it's perfectly fine.

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Some years ago here in the states there was a lady whose house was burning down and she screamed to the fireman, "My babies"! He rushed into the house in an attempt to find them and subsequently died in the fire... Turns out the "babies" were her cats and they got out before she did and ran across the street...
That is an unfortunate unintentional accident, accidents happen, let's not blame the woman- she was hysterical and panic stricken, her house/world burning down before her eyes.

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Placing an animal's life over that of a human is inexcusable , yet here in the U.S. some animals get better health care than people do... It's a mad world..
Well, if it was my dog it's different to me, if I was on a sinking ship and there was a 2 person life raft only and it was me, some stranger and my dog, and space for only 2, the stranger had better be able to swim.
Yes, some animals get excellent health care, why shouldnt they if the owner can afford it? It's not up to some stranger to foot the bill for someone elses' health care- that's what insurance, worker's comp etc etc are for- people generally make their own situations- good or bad, and can figure out their own resolutions, animals CANT.
  #28  
Old 05-01-2008, 10:54 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

You'd choose your pet over a fellow human... That is terribly unfortunate, there was no "mistake", she had a perspective much like your own; that her pets were more valuable than another human life. I think the Nazis felt similarly about the Jews, Stalin about his own people and well, today the Tibetans and Darfurians are given the same value by our friends in the East..

Unbelievable,.... It's no wonder the libs can't come up with a candidate, they feel that way about the same people who make this country suceed and would just love to see them all in the government driven death camps and soup lines where they can be taken care of..
  #29  
Old 05-01-2008, 11:08 PM
steponmebbbboom steponmebbbboom is offline
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

well since we are talking about culture, let's take a look at nicaragua for a minute: Starving dogs are just as common to them as raccoons and squirrels are to us. i really dont find it that hard to believe habacuc made a judgment error in refusing the animal be fed during the three-hour exhibit, or that none of the local patrons tried to. they all were probably tripping over the dogs outside the gallery coming in! the point is, the man was trying to illuminate the plight of the country's dogs, and effect cultural change. and now, with worldwide attention, the nicaraguan government is under the spotlight and may actually try to DO something about it. take a look at the comments section; how many of the idiots spitting venom there even know where nicaragua is on a MAP let alone where their own hamburger meat really comes from.
  #30  
Old 05-02-2008, 05:52 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

All righteousnesses and moralities aside, this is simply another piece of affected "issue" trying to wear an Art costume. Performance, installation, happening, spectacle, alternative, experimental, avante garde...if it fits into any of those, its not doing it well. The artist knew in advance that much controversy would be awarded him by all this - the dog issue was readily available. It is well known that artists often transform public outrage into career successes. Shame on him, of course, for bringing some poor animal into his shenanigan, but the bottom line is that he is not participating-in nor even acknowledging creativity nor aesthetics...he has not attempted to become a better human in any way by all this.
  #31  
Old 05-02-2008, 09:30 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

So Step on me..... I dont understand why you would attack me for eating meat and show this link when you are pro animal cruelty. Shouldnt you be applauding me and most other humans for supporting this industry. I admitted that I am not perfect but there is still a big difference between what this guy has done and any thing you will see in the cattle industry. That difference is that at least most of these industries can "say" they directly affect the quality of human life( true or not). This guy is just creating scandle and publicity for shock value to further him self. If you want to support some one who is intentionally cruel to animals go ahead just dont expect an animal lover to be kind to you. On a final note Steponme.... I stand for something how bout you what is your idea torture ,kill, maim as long as there is some way it can be artisticly linked however remote.

Landseer I am with you all the way even if I was the other guy on the boat.
Evaldart I agree with you as well nothing art oriented in this.
  #32  
Old 05-02-2008, 12:08 PM
steponmebbbboom steponmebbbboom is offline
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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Originally Posted by tobias View Post
So Step on me..... I dont understand why you would attack me for eating meat and show this link when you are pro animal cruelty. Shouldnt you be applauding me and most other humans for supporting this industry.
Did you even watch that clip?

Quote:
I admitted that I am not perfect but there is still a big difference between what this guy has done and any thing you will see in the cattle industry.
Thats right, the cattle industry is much, much worse.

Quote:
That difference is that at least most of these industries can "say" they directly affect the quality of human life( true or not).
????

Quote:
I stand for something how bout you what is your idea torture ,kill, maim as long as there is some way it can be artisticly linked however remote.
that is NOT what i said, what about you: torture, kill, maim as long as the dead animal ends up in a leather tannery or on my dinner plate?
  #33  
Old 05-02-2008, 02:11 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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Landseer I am with you all the way even if I was the other guy on the boat.
So if he chucks your wife out of the boat to save his dog you're cool with that.. That's what he's saying here and what a lot of people who are morally bankrupt would say..

I don't get it, but I'll play, I'd chuck you both out and eat your stupid dog.
  #34  
Old 05-02-2008, 02:53 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

This issue was already dealt with, by one of the better writers of the 60's, Harlan Ellison, in the book, A Boy and His Dog.

Check it out- its great.
The movie, featuring a teenage Don Johnson, was not so great.
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  #35  
Old 05-02-2008, 03:50 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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Originally Posted by Ries View Post
This issue was already dealt with, by one of the better writers of the 60's, Harlan Ellison, in the book, A Boy and His Dog
The use of the phrase " already dealt with" seems to be a dismisal of other opinions or ideas, as though the final word on the topic has been issued by Ellison. I don't know if that is what you meant to imply, or just lacked a better way to say it.

I did try to read a Harlan Ellison book once based on someone's recommendation, I don't remember the title, but it was so bleak in its view of human life that I had to stop before I got very far. And I usually give an author the benefit of the doubt before giving up.
  #36  
Old 05-02-2008, 06:15 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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I did try to read a Harlan Ellison book once based on someone's recommendation, I don't remember the title, but it was so bleak in its view of human life that I had to stop before I got very far. And I usually give an author the benefit of the doubt before giving up.
Ellison was/is a great writer.. A Boy And His Dog has to be read in context though like any other great sci-fi work.. In the story the dog had an IQ that rivalled Einstein's and the girl (The one they ate in the end) had an IQ of a dog. The extrapolation being that if you let the government (libs, commies, nazis) run your life you'll end up in a post apocolyptic world where your population is predominantly comprised of morally vacuous "sheeple".
  #37  
Old 05-02-2008, 07:36 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

If i believed it was real i would be upset...But i think its a hoax, the gallery would not risk their business on artwork that cant be sold for a profit.

As a lover of hoaxes, this is great! I actually think this guy is brilliant, this is an example of how a fake art exhibit (not feeding a dog for 3hours) can generate a huge amount of publicity for the artist and the gallery.

If it is real, then the guy is crap, but I cant see it being anything more than a publicity stunt.
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  #38  
Old 05-02-2008, 08:13 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

When I said "dealt with", I meant the moral ramifications of prefering a dog over a human being, in life or death situations, had been the subject of the story, and that Ellison, being the extremely smart guy that he is, makes the reader consider it from all angles, and make their own decision.

I am certainly not saying that everybody isnt entitled to come to their own conclusions- although I, personally, have a species loyalty to my own species first.

I love the animals I share my life with, but I realize they are animals, not humans, and I love my family and friends more.
There is no doubt in my mind that I would save a human before I would save a dog. No matter how great a dog it was. It might cause me extreme emotional distress to let a dog die, but I would still save a human first. I guess I am just a species chauvinist.
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  #39  
Old 05-02-2008, 08:36 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

Dibs on Ries' boat!
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  #40  
Old 05-02-2008, 09:17 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
You'd choose your pet over a fellow human... That is terribly unfortunate, there was no "mistake", she had a perspective much like your own; that her pets were more valuable than another human life.
My dogs are much more than just "pets", they have just as much right to live as any other and I don't believe in the dogma that we can kill animals any time we like for any reason or none at all just because they are supposedly "inferior" or "disposable" and at our disposal to do with what we wish.

But be that as it may they are more valuable to me personally, they are 100% honest in their feelings and actions, they don't cheat, steal, backstab ya, care what you look like or what kind of clothes you wear, whether your teeth are chalk white, you shaved this morning, nor do they play mind games- people DO.

Quote:
I think the Nazis felt similarly about the Jews, Stalin about his own people and well, today the Tibetans and Darfurians are given the same value by our friends in the East..
Unfortunately we have the human overpopulation problem to thank for today's problems. In this country for example we had 150 million in 1950 now it's over 305 million with no end in sight.

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Unbelievable,.... It's no wonder the libs can't come up with a candidate,
I'm not classified as a "liberal" in your liberal/conservative system, I'm a registered libertarian as well as identifying with animist-paganism- that all life has a spirit or energy.
  #41  
Old 05-02-2008, 09:27 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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But be that as it may they are more valuable to me personally, they are 100% honest in their feelings and actions, they don't cheat, steal, backstab ya, care what you look like or what kind of clothes you wear, whether your teeth are chalk white, you shaved this morning, nor do they play mind games- people DO.
Landseer,
We just need to get you some new friends. I don't begrudge you your animal buddies, but I think there are some worthy people too. I'll put my best welding buddy up against your best dog. And she brings food too. There are genuinely good people in the world, with all those characteristics you mentioned.
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  #42  
Old 05-02-2008, 09:43 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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Originally Posted by Landseer View Post

Unfortunately we have the human overpopulation problem to thank for today's problems.
Doggone-it! Grommet puts a nice humorous exclamation point on the thread, and now this.

We don't have an overpopulation problem, we have an enlightenment problem. This is still a rather large planet in comparison to the world's population. If we had 5 times as many people on earth, but they were all cooperating, looking out for each other, and not being manipulated by governments and ideologies that lack sound moral values, if resources were used wisely, today's problems would pretty much disappear.

At least, that's the short version of my response, trying to keep it diatribe-free.

I'm wondering in the sinking boat life raft scenario, if the boat could only hold two, and Landseer, Grommet, and a dog were in the boat, would Landseer volunteer to jump overboard, sacrificing himself to save Grommet and the dog?

Last edited by GlennT : 05-02-2008 at 10:29 PM. Reason: spelling error, a slip twixt the mind and the keyboard
  #43  
Old 05-02-2008, 10:06 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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Originally Posted by realsculpt View Post
If i believed it was real i would be upset...But i think its a hoax, the gallery would not risk their business on artwork that cant be sold for a profit.
I dont believe it is a hoax and so far there has been nothing in writing stating positively one way or the other- only speculation and hear-say. The fact is the "artist" has a web site of his own with the gallery photos showing the dog, so the photos were not "doctored" by a third party and distributed as a hoax like the cubed kittens in a jar- bonzai kittens- he has the photos of this dog in the exhibit on his OWN site.
A NORMAL gallery might not risk backlash, but this gallery is not in the USA it's in a foreign country, and in a country where animals are treated like street garbage- few care, there wouldn't BE a backlash locally speaking- because the visitors to the gallery have the same mindset- that animals are just street trash and vermin.
A gallery in Bangladesh let's say, wouldn't give a krap what people in the USA think about an exhibit in their gallery.

I noticed a story in the paper the other day, proud smiling "man" with a rifle and a dead wolf at his feet, story said basically- from his actions there that he sought revenge against a wolf for his loss and his angry claim they were reducing the big game herds (he liked to kill), it said he chased the wolf 35 MILES on a snowmobile and shot it twice.
Of course he has NO plans to eat the MEAT, he just killed him because he was angry- must have been if he felt the need to run the animal 35 MILES to death by snowmobile.
  #44  
Old 05-03-2008, 12:03 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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We don't have an overpopulation problem, we have an enlightenment problem. This is still a rather large planet in comparison to the world's population. If we had 5 times as many people on earth, but they were all cooperating, looking out for each other, and not being manipulated by governments and ideologies that lack sound moral values, if resources were used wisely, today's problems would pretty much disappear.
Isnt going to happen, thats fantasy-land, movie material. The planet can't support an ever increasing population, nor should it, it is a FINITE environment. Is not 305 million enough yet or do we need 2 billion people in the US squabbling over land, resources, food, clean water, waste disposal, utilties, housing, jobs etc?

No matter how much we cut back, conserve, save it will eventually collide with reality- this planet IS finite, there is only so much oil, land to grow food on, clean water and trees. Forest fires, droughts, infestations, logging, climate shift and house building are destroying the forests at a phenominal rate.

Unfortunately we dont have FUR to keep warm and are ill equipped to even survive without heat in a snow belt region, so we are forced to burn dirty limited supply fossil fuels just to keep from freezing to death in temperatures under maybe 40 degrees. We can't drink water out of a brook or the ocean that covers 2/3 of the earth without getting sick or dying, so we have to build water filtration systems and then because the waste is full of toxic bacteria- ecoli is one- we have to build sewers and dispose of the sludge full of toxic crud SOMEWHERE.

Then people need shelter, since there's not enough caves around that means building WOOD houses which means cutting down living trees and burning the slash from it.
No matter how you dice it, humans are a serious drain on the planet and it's finite environment with limited resources no matter how conservative they are.
Since the sun doesnt shine at night, or after 5 PM in the winter, we are forced to MAKE light, and that means burning dirty fossil fuels.
Since crops don't grow everywhere or all year 'round, that means having to transport it- burning more fossil fuels and storing it, unfortunately many foods are perishable or go bad/stale, that means refrigeration- more fossil fuels.

Not a very well considered environment when it reaches the overload point as it has.
In 1790 there were 4 million peoplein the US according to the census that year- HALF the population of New York City today in numbers- occupied the entire country in 1790, now over 9 million people occupy NYC ALONE.



If you want a look at how it's all heading, you only need to watch Soylent Green and Logan's Run.



Quote:
I'm wondering in the sinking boat life raft scenario, if the boat could only hold two, and Landseer, Grommet, and a dog were in the boat, would Landseer volunteer to jump overboard, sacrificing himself to save Grommet and the dog?
Nope, Grommet would have to hope he remembers his swimming lessons.

Last edited by Landseer : 05-03-2008 at 02:51 AM.
  #45  
Old 05-03-2008, 06:29 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

She, and I failed swimming when I was a kid.

I wonder how easy it is to flip a boat over???
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Last edited by grommet : 05-03-2008 at 06:55 AM. Reason: survival of the fittest ;)
  #46  
Old 05-03-2008, 07:40 AM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

I'd save the dog for lunch. And then all three could stay. Scout
  #47  
Old 05-03-2008, 01:13 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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I'd save the dog for lunch. And then all three could stay. Scout
Definitely NOT humorous Scout, this is not a joking issue.
  #48  
Old 05-03-2008, 02:13 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

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Originally Posted by Landseer View Post
If you want a look at how it's all heading, you only need to watch Soylent Green and Logan's Run.
Well see, here's the problem I have with libs in general and you are a secularist-lib in my book. They're moral equivocators and live in fantasy land and don't believe in science, but rather science-fiction and myth.
Let's work this out starting with the primary fatal flaw. Your dog is just a dog and not worth the life of another human being. It's not that I wouldn't pet him if he came by or give him a bowl of water if he were thirsty, I love dogs and that is not the point. The point is that you equivocate the value of your dog above that of a fellow human and that I believe is insane. The argument that he doesn't judge people by the color of their teeth or what they wear is irrelevant because your dog is too stupid to know the difference. Anyone who has ever owned a dog knows that they do in fact "steal", "cheat" and "lie" as can be evidenced at the missing food on your plate at the dinner table and furled back ears and waggy-tail as you gaze upon the poop in the corner of your living room. Having an IQ somewhere roughly between 10-20, your dog doesn't care that you are dumber than he is and will happily eat you in the raft after stealing your last few bites of fish (had you been smart enough to learn how to catch one to begin with). If you were headed in the direction that somehow house pets are more noble than humans because they demonstrate unconditional love you are again incorrect and this is just another biased, homo-sapien-centric viewpoint like "we are the center of the universe" that was espoused by the old church. House pets are conditioned by those who feed and protect them and they behave accordingly. They are no more noble than humans by any means and dogs, cats, killer whales, dolphins etc. are seen in nature to kill out of simple pleasure and beyond the need for self-preservation, food or instinct. Any atheist worth their salt understands the difference between a pet and a human, but you are a liberal pagan/atheist with whipped cream on top and sprinkled with NUT-meg IMNSHO...

Concerning the overpopulation myth and Logan's Run etc,.. 200 years ago this planet could not support a population of 6 billion people because there were no combustion engines. Without these, there cannot be 6 billion people because of simple logistics in transporting food and that is just one link in the larger and more complex chain. You are right about one thing; the Earth is a finite system, but people have evolved along one primary route in that system and that is to change their environment to suit their needs and we are very good at it (well okay, the libs suck at it and do all they can to prevent it and that's the reason our economy is tanking and why I can't stand them, but enough of the asides).
From a purely scientific standpoint (amount of air, water, space and materials) there is no reason whatsoever that Earth cannot support a population in the tens or even hundreds of billions of people and some day it will whether you read soylent green or not (just how many different science-fiction related extrapolations actually came to pass in the last 75 years?,.. Ermm,... maybe 3%.. with 97% pure Oprah Winfrey styled rubbish). While the Earth may be finite, the Universe is not and we will branch out into the solar system and perhaps beyond at some point just as we have spread across the globe over tens-of-thousands of years. The idea that this is a good vs. bad thing falls upon simple statistics. For every million lib dummies who thought the caribou would become extinct when we built the Alaska pipeline, there's one smart person who will come along and refute it all with facts. The caribou population has doubled since 1975 and indeed they love the heat that the pipeline produces and make lots of little caribous underneath it. The same people who are convincing you that the world will be an out of control "global warming" oven in fifty years can't even tell you whether it's going to rain tomorrow or not.
Carbon is a fixed asset and it will take us another 1000 years at our current "footprint" trends to produce as much as Krakatoa did in 24 hours in 1883. There was 10 times as much carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in the Jurassic as there is today and the dinosaurs were more successful than we have been thus far as they thrived for 170 million years (wouldn't that be something and here we are at just over a million).

In a Boy And His Dog, Ellison warns us of what we could become by following religions, governments and secularist beliefs and how we could find ourselves having less value than a dog. I never thought it could be true,.. yet here I am watching it

P.S. I'm with you on one thing, I doubt this was a "stunt" and even if it was, he's guilty.

Last edited by StevenW : 05-03-2008 at 02:45 PM.
  #49  
Old 05-03-2008, 04:28 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

Well, shut my mouth! Wow! StevenW, that post was a thing of beauty!
  #50  
Old 05-03-2008, 04:33 PM
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Re: "Artist" starves dog for "art"

Well see, here's the problem I have with libs in general and you are a secularist-lib in my book. They're moral equivocators and live in fantasy land and don't believe in science, but rather science-fiction and myth.
---------

I think you are broadly painting an entire class of people with a wide brush there. I'm not a fan of labels or titles, because there is no label or title that fits everyone or any individual 100%
For example, I identify with animist/paganism, if you look up "animism" or "Paganism" you will find a WIDE variety of opinions on what each MEANS- its all open to interpretation. Some definitions of animism include the believe that everything has a soul or spirit- that includes ROCKS, mountains, plants, animals etc- much like the early native Americans's beliefs. I don't feel inanimate objects are anything more than just lumps of raw material, however, I DO feel plants, trees, animals and people do have a spirit or life energy (I don't like the use of the term 'soul' as that is too associated with organized religion)

I also firmly believe in science- the kind that is peer-reviewed, published-in-the-journals, reproduceable at will by any scientist at any time using the criteria set forth. Bad science gets weeded out by subsequent experiments by others, to wit: the 'cold fusion' that turned out to be a mistaken chemical reaction that was not what it seemed to be at first.

I certainly don't believe in science fiction OR myth, religion comes under that category, I stopped believing in Santa Claus and goblins a LONG time ago.


"Let's work this out starting with the primary fatal flaw. Your dog is just a dog and not worth the life of another human being. It's not that I wouldn't pet him if he came by or give him a bowl of water if he were thirsty, I love dogs and that is not the point. The point is that you equivocate the value of your dog above that of a fellow human and that I believe is insane."

Ok, but see, that is your personal opinion, we all have those, the key word to me in your paragraph above is the word: [YOUR] dog, with the word "your" it designates and acknowleges something that belongs exclusively to me that I live with raise, love, care for and am around.
The "stranger" on the boat trip example- maybe he/she lives in China or Germany, this would be someone I certainly would never have met before, have NO attachments to whatsoever, and would never meet in the future again.


"The argument that he doesn't judge people by the color of their teeth or what they wear is irrelevant because your dog is too stupid to know the difference. Anyone who has ever owned a dog knows that they do in fact "steal", "cheat" and "lie" as can be evidenced at "

That is a totally different thing, like comparing apples to oranges, the dog does not steal as stealing is a human concept, just like appreciating that $15,000 painting your dog pees on when you left it leaning against the wall within reach- you the human appreciates the VALUE, the dog only knows it's a vertical surface for pee.
Your job just as it is with a toddler who also doesn't know the difference- is to put it up out of reach. You wouldnt leave a bottle of drain cleaner on the floor where the toddler can get into it, why would anyone feel it would be ok to do it around a dog who also doesnt know better?

Theres a big difference between immaturity and maturity, "knowing better" and wonton vandalism, the deranged nut who slashes a Rembrandt painting at a museum knows better, so too does the teen who blows up your mailbox or gouges your new car's paint with a screw driver for a "prank." A dog can be trained not to steal food or take food from strangers-ever.

"Having an IQ somewhere roughly between 10-20, "

A dog is roughly equiv to about a 2 year old todler, and a border collie in a cover story of a magazine I'm reading can understand some 130 different words and associate them with various objects.

"They are no more noble than humans by any means and dogs, cats, killer whales, dolphins etc. are seen in nature to kill out of simple pleasure and "

That would be assuming "simple pleasure" by our inept observation based on human values, human values do not apply to animals and we simply cannot know what goes on in their minds. Just like the trained tame bear who worked with this trainer for many years suddenly attacked him, we cannot know what it was that set him off, all we can do is ASSume based on what we THINK was the cause, and chances are good it's totally wrong.
There's PLENTY of people who do the same, including those who take pleasaure at hunting down animals for nothing more than a wall trophy or worse yet- the "thrill" of the kill, THOSE are people who are probably Jeffrey Dahmer clones in the making.


"Concerning the overpopulation myth and Logan's Run etc,.. 200 years ago this planet could not support a population of 6 billion people because there were no combustion engines. Without these, there cannot be 6 billion people because of simple logistics in transporting food and that is just one link in the larger and more complex chain. You are right about one thing; the Earth is a finite system, but people have evolved along one primary route in that system and that is to change their environment to suit their needs and we are very good at it "

True, we invented transportaion and all that, BUT do you not see the dire CONSEQUENCES from that and it's associated industries? the invention of the engine is what caused the demand for OIL, and it's the collecting, transporting and burning oil that has caused deaths, wars or civil unrest, economic consequences, air pollution, acid rain, fires, explosions. It enabled the automobile which in it's own turn caused it's own set of consequences as the estimated 40,000 deaths a year in the USA attest;

In 1995, according to a 1998 World Health Organization Press Release WHO/57 , two million traffic accidents resulted in 120,000 deaths and 2.5 million injured people in the whole European region. One in every three road traffic deaths involved people younger than 25 years of age. Pedestrians and bicyclists were particularly vulnerable groups, making up 45% of all road deaths in the United Kingdom. In Hungary, the proportion was even higher, over 50%, but in most Western European countries it was substantially lower (17% in France, 20% in Germany and around 30% in Denmark and the Netherlands). In motorized traffic the highest-risk group was motorcyclists, with a death rate ten times higher than for car occupants, and an injury rate six times higher than that of car occupants.

United States - The death toll on our highways makes driving the number one cause of death and injury for young people ages 5 to 27. Highway crashes cause 94 percent of all transportation fatalities and 99 percent of all transportation injuries
According to a WHO report, "The Injury Pyramid," for every motor vehicle injury resulting in death in the US, 13 people sustain injuries severe enough to require hospitalization.

In the US DOT publication "The Economic Costs Of Motor Vehicle Crashes," NHTSA investigator Lawrence J. Blincoe reports that in 1994, motor vehicle crashes accounted for 40,676 fatalites, and 4,100,000 injuries (of which 533,000 or 13% were serious). The total lifetime cost to the US economy for automobile accidents that occured in 1994 was $150.5 billion. The 1996 NHTSA report "1996 Traffic Safety Facts" (pdf) came up with similar though somewhat improved statistics: 41,907 fatalities and 3,511,000 injuries, 456,430 of them serious. The 1997 NHTSA report "Traffic Safety Facts 1997" reports 41,967 fatalities and 3,399,000 injuries, 441,870 of them serious. The 1998 NHTSA report "Traffic Safety Facts 1998 Annual Report" reports 41,471 fatalities and 3,192,000 injuries, 414,960 of them serious.

http://www.safecarguide.com/exp/stat...statistics.htm


"From a purely scientific standpoint (amount of air, water, space and materials) there is no reason whatsoever that Earth cannot support a population in the tens or even hundreds of billions of people and some day it will whether you read soylent green or not (just how many different science-fiction related extrapolations actually came to pass in the last 75 years?,"

Well, if you watched those two movies you can see it happenng already- the parallels are astounding. Logan's Run- the Govt had live cameras everywhere in public and were monitoring everyone's movements and putting informatiion in a central database- today we have traffic cams, security cams and all sorts of live cams monitoring streets, roads, bridges, businesses, public buildings, court houses, traffic cams, radar cops, radar cams on the freeways to catch you speeding etc.
The Govt implanted a chip in everyones palm to monitor you further (there has been talk of "real ID" as well as implanting those rice sized chips- that movement has already started. Due to overpopulation people were limited to live 30 years and then had to report for extermination.

PLOT:
The Earth has been ruined by something in the distant past-- war, plague, ecological disaster, it is never revealed. The remains of humanity have lived within a domed city, unaware of the condition of the outside or the origin of their own living conditions; to them, the city is and always has been the entire world.
To maintain the internal balance of the city, both reproduction and death are carefully controlled by a monolithic master computer.
==
War is a fact of life, and it's only a matter of time before WW3 happens, only THIS time theres tens of thousands of nukes and chemical weapons all over the place, one accident or misunderstanding is all it could take- Iran lobs a small nuke at Israel for example, or some nuts get hold of one of the many from the collapsed Soviet Union on the black market.

Computers are already controlling vast portions of life and economics, without computers or power to run them, everything would grind to a halt and collapse- you cant even conduct banking business or run a supermarket cash register without them, everything goes now into a database- special tags on items at the store contain small devices that record your purchasing habits, transactions, selections and so on, all of that information goes into databases along with your credit scores, mortgage, loans etc etc. EVery time you use your creidt or debit card, that transaction is recorded into a database about your spending habits.

LOGANS RUN:

A tale of Earth in despair in 2022. Natural food like fruits, vegetables, and meat among others are now extinct. Earth is overpopulated and New York City has 40 million starving, poverty stricken people. The only way they survive is with water rations and eating a mysterious food called Soylent.
In the year 2022, earth's face has completely changed. New York's population, for example, has grown to 40 million mouths to feed. The greenhouse effect has risen the temperature into nearly unbearable regions, and the people are kept in the cities by law. The rich live in separated luxury apartments (with women as part of the rented furniture) but also experience the lack of natural food. Strawberries are at $150 for a glass of them. Police Detective Thorn investigates a strange murdering case of an official from the Soylent corporation, which feeds the masses with a palette of their creations: Soylent red, yellow, or, even more nutritious, green.
===
In 1790 the entire country had 4 million, NYC has 9 million alone now, while its unlike to go to 40 million in 2022 it has the potential as theres nothing to stop it, the greater picture is not the one city but the overpopulation and what it did to the environment.
We already are seeing food prices skyrocket just because oil has, since everything runs on energy and most farms etc require diesel fuel to plant, harvest, transport food etc, oil will control food prices, and prices are what will make the difference between living and starving for millions, and that in turn controls potential violence, civil unrest etc- starving people wont go quietly into the night, they will riot, there will be massive rushes on supermarkets and so on.
If you think $150 strawberries are fiction, a few years ago when gas was 89 cents a gallon people thought $4 a gallon gas was fiction too, people pay the equiv of about $27 a gallon for that fancy bottled water, who would have imagined anyone would pay $27 for a gallon of tap water?

" While the Earth may be finite, the Universe is not and we will branch out into the solar system and perhaps beyond at some point just as we have spread across the globe over tens-of-thousands of years."

Isn't likely, the COSTS and amount of toxic fuel used just to launch one shuttle is insane;

Q. How much does it cost to launch a Space Shuttle?
A. The average cost to launch a Space Shuttle is about $450 million per mission.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/...uttle_faq.html

When people are staving or lack health care, spending $450 MILLION on a space ship trip is an idea that is rapidly going to be seen as a frivolous waste.
We already know none of the other planets in this system are habitable, travel to another system would take too long. The idea that we can just burn up and destroy THIS planet and then discard it by finding a new one to wreck elsewhere to move to seems pretty insane as well. Its also the concept of science fiction movies.

" The same people who are convincing you that the world will be an out of control "global warming" oven in fifty years can't even tell you whether it's going to rain tomorrow or not."

There is a big difference there, weather is a variable highly changeable thing that can change in an hour, climate is different, we can look at old photos of now formerly snow capped year 'round mountains that are bare or almost there- despite having a history of hundreds of years of snow cover.
Satellite photos showing the reduction in polar ice also doesnt lie- its documented in previous photos and data that was published.
Average temperature data also doesnt lie, nor does analysis of ice-cores taken from deep polar ice- its like tree growth rings and can be "read", when we find the ice core contained XYZ 1,000 years ago and now X has tripled in it's numbers in the last 150 years of the industrial age, it doesnt take half a brain to see where X came from.
The CAUSE of the climate change is anyones guess, sun spots, magnetic pole shifting, who knows, but nothing we can do about it NOW is going to reverse it- it would be like trying to empty a lake with a teaspoon.

"Carbon is a fixed asset and it will take us another 1000 years at our current "footprint" trends to produce as much as Krakatoa did in 24 hours in 1883. There was 10 times as much carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in the Jurassic as there is today and the dinosaurs were more successful than we have been thus far as they thrived for 170 million years"

BUT, when we had 4 million people in the entire country, things like a volcano had little effect on the people, NOW any major or long term disruption at all of food, oil, power, transportation, water, sewage, communication etc will have dire consequences. NOW, if oil was cut off due to a major war, or the price jumped up to $10 or $15 a gallon for gas, what do you think would happen? entire industries would rapidly collapse, workers in those industries would be out of work and that would cause a snow-ball effect, people out of work with a mortgage, bills and credit cards maxed out dont have money to spend.

You see what happens when the electrical grid is disrupted for one day, in NYC in 1975 during a 2 day blackout there were riots, looting, murders, fires, runs on supermarkets, people demanding $50 for a fashlight or bottle of water etc.

"P.S. I'm with you on one thing, I doubt this was a "stunt" and even if it was, he's guilty."

On that we agree
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