Public displaying of Nude Art

[justme]

I just checked out the Koons pics. I love nude sculptures, same as most of us. But if Koon's isn't pornography, then what in the world is?
In the name of censorship or not, do we really sedate our brains so much that we can't tell the difference between art and porn? I think we know.
j

[GWayne]

I don't care how anyone tries to explain, rationalize, or defend Koon's photographs as "art" because in the end they are just poorly done porn pictures, plain and simple.

GWayne

http://www.georgewayne.com

[ilona]

Ok, I just looked at the Koons pics for the first time.

Anyone care to guess what it is that bothers ME about these works?

[Landseer]

I agree, I consider the Koons photos to be little more than artified porn, what else would you consider works with titles like these;

" Blow Job - Ice, 1991"
" Ilona's Asshole, 1991"

[ilona]

Attempting for the moment to forget about the names used in these pieces...

I suggest that Koons is trying to push the boundary of our definition of porn with this work. I think he is asking us to debate "what is porn?"

This is no different than what many other artists have done throughout history. It is merely making us re-examine our society and our definitions of what is or is not art, porn, etc.

I am not condoning the work, in fact I find it rather distasteful myself (not least of which because of the use of my name!) but I do think that artists can play a valuable role in society by forcing people to ask and answer these types of questions, and to debate such issues.

[Landseer]

You might be reading too much into "intent" with the statement; "I think he is asking us to debate "what is porn?"

I looked over the other photos, it looks more like a Macy's sale site than an art site, he has the porn photos up alongside sculptures of puppies, a hedge, an ordinary ice cooler, a tray of glasses, a bucket...

[HappySculpting]

Sex is everywhere in advertisements, in the movies. The way little girls are dressing these days, trying to look sexy when they're 7 yrs. old, etc. is all a product of today's society. Young children may have a foggy idea of what sex is all about but for them to see such images(Koons), would it not encourage them to do what's in the images and are they ready at such a young age for that? What kind of effect would images like that have on their future sex life?

Koon's images are of depicting sexual acts and none of those images really should be repugnant in themselves as they are things that are normally done on a daily basis by men and women. But these things are private things done between two people, (married preferred), and, in my opinion, should never be viewed by others. Can't there be any decency in society any more? Do we really need to encourage more promiscuity than we have already? Can't the human sex act be beautiful and a mystery for the young untill they are ready to experience it? This I believe will help their future sex life as their will be an excitement to it instead of, "oh, I've seen that a million times".

Having said that..... I'm another one who puts my vote in for the beauty of the naked human body displayed in it's various positions in life; whether it be lounging on the top of the car (Rod's wonderful sculpture ) or a nude resting on rock on the seashore, etc. Even erotic art can be tasteful when it leaves some mystery to the genital area and simply shows two embracing. But to show the graphic sexual act is not appropriate for public viewing at all and a degrading of the sex act itself which should be a beautiful private thing between a man and woman.

~Tamara~

[Landseer]

Originally Posted by HappySculpting

What kind of effect would images like that have on their future sex life?

There probably isnt a kid around who hasn't stumbled on dad's girlie magazine collection, if the kid is young the reaction might be "What are those people DOING?" a little older might be more like; "Eww gross I'd never do THAT!!"
We forget that in the past history nude statues and more were seen by everyone. This marble carving from Herculanium dates to 100 BC, it was discovered long ago and the King and subsequently others- ordered it locked away and hidden, this was when most all of the nude statues had their genitals broken off, smashed or otherwise obliterated, in some cases statues were ordered RE-buried, this one wasn't amazing enough.

I love the theme, it's a gorgeous, sensitive, moving carving and if I ever found a reduced copy in bronze I'd buy one.
So far I have never found any other photos taken from different angles.

There was so much erotic art there that it would be surprising by even today's standards, who was damaged by it? if kids were exposed to it right from the start (as they are in France etc where nude sunbathing is legal) the breasts and genitals cease to be these dirty horrible things that have to be shielded from view. Somehow someone figured that breasts are ok to view legally in public as long as the NIPPLE is covered, and the underside as well is covered from view.

As far as female genitals, for the most part what would you see on a nude sunbather than HAIR? the SAME hair found in the armpits.

I have seen an article in the paper about a woman whose 16 year old daughter opened the mail one day and ran screaming and hysterical to mom in the other room, can you guess what she found? a soft porn catalog that showed NUDE MEN!
She was hysterical and upset over a nude catalogue, that tells me society has gone nuts.

[HappySculpting]

Hey Landseer- Glad to see you can post here again. I guess they took you off restrictions!

Regarding nudity and genitals: The beauty of the human form is a work of art and art displaying such is a good place to teach children the differences between men and women. But teaching them sex by showing it as depicted graphically in art (Koon's) is not necessary and I feel, damaging to them.

That bestiality shot is disgusting! Not shocking, however, because it's been going on for centuries. But the lowest state a man can find himself in, doing it with a beast. Talk about desperate! (Actually, I think that's some sort of man/goat or something, but still.... Yuck!)

[Landseer]

Originally Posted by HappySculpting

Regarding nudity and genitals: The beauty of the human form is a work of art and art displaying such is a good place to teach children the differences between men and women. But teaching them sex by showing it as depicted graphically in art (Koon's) is not necessary and I feel, damaging to them.

I'm afraid I don't feel the same on that, I don't find the human body/form at all interesting, erotic or artistic, in many ways it's hilarious looking to me. I find much more visual interest and artistic form in animals, especially in their natural settings-deer in the woods, Big Horn Sheep on the rocky ledges, or an equestrian sculpture in a dressage move, or with a fully decked out conquistor.
I guess I fail to see how Koon's photos, as X rated as they may look can be "damaging", I think the "children" of today are certainly more advanced and grow up as well as mature sexually much faster than those of 100 years ago. A 14 year old today is way different than the naive immature 14 year old of 1880. With the plethora of hard core material all over the net, softer but very suggestive material in ads for everything from pants to TV sets modelled by buxom girls in skin tight leotards, tv shows, commercials, posters, movies. With that plethora is mind I do agree that it all becomes so commonplace and rather ordinary, but I wouldn't say "damaging" with regards to emotional scarring.

Talk about desperate! (Actually, I think that's some sort of man/goat or something, but still.... Yuck!)

I'm afraid I disagree on this too, dislike or like the subject of the carving or not, it was made as art and it is artistic, one of the finest marble carvings of that era I believe I have seen. Technically it's execution is marvelous, the open spaces and cavities, undercutting and full round work is exquisite- more so when you consider this is 2,100 years old. While the one foreleg appears to have been broken and repaired as evidenced by the horizontal crack, the work is in astoundingly excellent condition. Whomever did the carving on this was extremely good, and I'm sure this sculpture has a story to tell of why it was created and for whom, but the story is lost.

Unfortunately, because of reactions as you have, this is why this fine piece of art was hidden away- first in the King's castle, and then later in a museum's locked store room where you had to make an appointment to see it as it was not on display. I guess I am disapointed in this reaction but not surprised given the other comments in your post with emphasis on "MAN-WOMAN" ("married preferred")

The man figure is the mythical "Pan" a half goat half man from your Greek mythology- Leda and the Swan, Europa and the bull, centaurs etc. The mythologic figures all had at least some basis in the facts/acts or fears of the day. Yes, quite old, as long as there have been peeople and animals on the planet, normally I'd say go do some research and learn about this on wikipedia.org/zoophilia or wikipedia.org/mythologywith an open mind, but from from your response I doubt it would do much good to read, "desperate" and "Low" are totally inaccurate either applied to the marble carving or a significant percentage of those involved with this.
Part of your view may come from the commonly taught idea that animals are somehow "lower" "inferior", "dirty" and here solely for people to use as cheap labor, to make cash off of or kill just because we can, some of us view them differently and more spiritually, and I certainly don't consider them in any negative light.

Just look at the work as a marble carving of two figures and pay no mind to the subject and maybe you can appreciate the work as a sculpture, and one that must have taken it's carver many laborious days of hand carving with fairly primitive tools.

[sculptor]

Originally Posted by HappySculpting

... (Actually, I think that's some sort of man/goat or something, but still.... Yuck!)

mangoat = Pan or one of the satyrs also known to have sex with women glad to see they swung both ways

for thousnds of years, singleroom architecture was the norm, and still is in some parts of the world (eg: where my son michael is at n the peace corps)
children there spoof the sex act of which they've been exposed to since birth.
It doesn't seem to warp their young minds-atleast not as warped as the young woman in landseer's posting-------which begs the question...which societal norm is the most damaging?

I suspect that children form their constructs of sex based on their parents reactions

that being said, i see koons work as 1% art and 99% hype and shock value
but then again, my viewpoint ain't exactly unbiased

Tamara, thanx for the compliment for ISIS I'll tell her you lik her when i'm repairing her surface for another couple years on the old truck

I just got an e-mail nibble from an HGTV producer-and must try to figgure out what to write in response to try'n hook this one------
advice appreciated
and/or--keep a good thought

rod

[ilona]

Hey, look... it's up to the PARENT to decide when their kids are ready to see such stuff. Not society. That's the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned. I have two little girls, and no I wouldn't let them look at those pictures now. But when they are teenagers, and we can have a meaningful discussion about it....sure.

The best way to handle that would be to have a sign outside this room in a gallery warning parents before they lead impressionable children into the room.

[Landseer]

Originally Posted by sculptor

for thousnds of years, singleroom architecture was the norm,

children there spoof the sex act of which they've been exposed to since birth.
It doesn't seem to warp their young minds-atleast not as warped as the young woman in landseer's posting-------which begs the question...which societal norm is the most damaging?

I suspect that children form their constructs of sex based on their parents reactions

Exactly! the children pick up what the PARENTS display, if the parent goes into a frenzy of shock when confronted with a simple nude catalogue the kid picks up on that without question. Over in Switzerland women can be found in the parks bare breasted, no one gives it a second thought because it's so normal there, but here people go into hysterics and panic just as they did when that woman on TV had a "wardrobe malfunction" and her one breast was partially exposed for a fraction of a second.
People- usually right wing Christians/Jerry Fallwell/Pat Robertson/Billy Graham gurus were writing the FCC demanding fines and something be DONE about the terrible nudity that happened.

that being said, i see koons work as 1% art and 99% hype and shock value
but then again, my viewpoint ain't exactly unbiased

Agreed- it is the shock value, maybe a large amount of showoff- "see what *I* have, this hot blond chick you dont?"

[Landseer]

Originally Posted by ilona

The best way to handle that would be to have a sign outside this room in a gallery warning parents before they lead impressionable children into the room.

I have no problem with a sign, one that says NOTICE: nude, graphic materials are on display which may be disturbing to minors.

I WOULD have a problem with one person complaining and having the exhibit removed as "offensive" to this one person (been done!)

[HappySculpting]

Hi Landseer,

I hope that I didn't offend or upset you in any way by what I said and actually, in the future, I think I won't share my feelings on controversial subjects because I want friends only on these sites and want to be encouraging to all. I don't like to argue or cut down anyone. I hope you didn't feel my reaction to the picture you posted was aimed towards you for posting it or something.

I do loooove animals so that's not what I meant about "low". I'm not going to reiterate what I meant because I pretty well said already that what the sculpture is depicting is very distasteful to me.

Hi Sculptor-

I wasn't for sure if you really understood how much I like Isis that was displayed atop of your truck. And I wasn't for sure if you were referring to me as having the "warped mind". I'm pretty sure that this'll be my last post on such subjects and I regret posting my feelings.

-Not happily Tamara

[ilona]

I agree, landseer. As an adult, let me decide for myself what is offensive and what is not.

I still maintain that that is at least part of Koons' objective with those pieces. (The dialogue over what is pornography, etc...)

By taking what would be seen by most people as pornography out of it's original context, where it is only viewed by those who seek it out, he is pushing it into the faces of the general public and saying "What is this to you?"

I don't really find it offensive personally (other than the use of my name being a bit perturbing!) but I am comfortable with viewing erotica.

In a gallery, with other people around, however, I might feel differently.

[Landseer]

Originally Posted by HappySculpting

Hi Landseer,

I hope that I didn't offend or upset you in any way by what I said and actually, in the future, I think I won't share my feelings on controversial subjects because I want friends only on these sites and want to be encouraging to all. I don't like to argue or cut down anyone. I hope you didn't feel my reaction to the picture you posted was aimed towards you for posting it or something.

I'm not sure what to feel on this now, I know you were not directing your negative comments at me- just the subject of the sculpture and the comment about "But the lowest state a man can find himself in," and I understood exactly what you meant that's the problem. I guess that's where I'm feeling oddly offended by that, enough that I'm not sure I really want to participate further in the forum you moderate- it's almost like an athiest discovering their friend is a priest who condemns athiests- makes for an awkward exchange of dialogue afterwards.

But while we all have our views and opinions on such matters, you should do some reading on that fairly neutral wikipedia site on the subject. At least before totally locking up your opinion on something like this which you cannot know very much about due to an emotional "yuk" block to the subject of the sculpture itself.

what the sculpture is depicting is very distasteful to me.

Ok you are certainly entitled to that, but I feel the same about the Koons images and similar, obviously we are cut out of totally different molds- just goes to show that no one can please everyone all the time, be it an art gallery or artist- someone somewhere will be offended by something- even a portrait of someone's grandmother.

Hi Sculptor-

And I wasn't for sure if you were referring to me as having the "warped mind". I'm pretty sure that this'll be my last

He was I think referring to my post about the mother of the teen girl who opened the mail and went hysterical at seeing a catalogue of nude men, mom actually filed a lawsuit by the way- that's how far the lunacy went. Normal people don't go into hysterics and file lawsuits, the teen obviously learned this reaction from MOM.

[HappySculpting]

it's almost like an athiest discovering their friend is a priest who condemns athiests

Hi Landseer- But I don't feel this way about you. I'm not condemning anyone who feels differently than I do about the graphic sex images. I'm not like a judgemental priest I can assure you. Sorry if I came off that way. I do carry the old fashioned Christian views, though, and that's me and my beliefs. But I'm not a nose in the air, condemn others person. I don't hold any bad feelings toward you for your more liberal views.

enough that I'm not sure I really want to participate further in the forum you moderate-

I was feeling similar feelings but see, this is all negative stuff. And why I don't want to get involved in controversial subjects. I came to this site for sculpting buddies and for morale support. I hope I can give this to you and others and be uplifting and not make anyone feel disrespected. We all have our different beliefs but one thing we have in common is sculpting. By looking to the things in common and have a general feeling of respect for one another and it'll be for the good of the site. We've got years of sculpting ahead of us and lots to rejoice about.

BTW-I'm not a moderator over there but do post quite a bit so I can see where you'd get that idea. Hope you visit over there and let us see your future works.

I'm glad that Rod wasn't referring to me in that comment cuz it made me cry.

[sculptor]

Tamara:
not to worry
Landseer was correct, I was refering to the lunatic litigous mom and daughter
(part of me thinks their supposed hysteria was a sham created exclusively for their lawsuit)

and
always feel free to share your feelings---no negativity here
they fill in the voids to communicate you as a complete person as well as a gifted and hardworking sculptor

all things are transient------but the respect of ones peers is perhaps the thing of most value for me.

rod

[Landseer]

Originally Posted by HappySculpting

Hi Landseer- But I don't feel this way about you. I'm not condemning anyone who feels differently than I do about the graphic sex images. I'm not like a judgemental priest I can assure you. Sorry if I came off that way. I do carry the old fashioned Christian views, though, and that's me and my beliefs. But I'm not a nose in the air, condemn others person. I don't hold any bad feelings toward you for your more liberal views.

Rehi, you'd likely think differently if you knew me better on a more personal level, plus I'm 100% an agnostic which doesn't make for good relations with those who aren't. Though a web site I run for a radio station I did appoint a minister as a moderator, still, the barrier, feelings and conflict is there regardless of how we can turn off such things during professinal interactions.

I was feeling similar feelings but see, this is all negative stuff. And why I don't want to get involved in controversial subjects.

Religion, politics and sex are THE 3 biggest hot issues, and I've had to close and replace one folder where all that winds up- 3 times so far in the last year

I came to this site for sculpting buddies and for morale support. I hope I can give this to you and others and be uplifting and not make anyone feel disrespected. We all have our different beliefs but one thing we have in common is sculpting. By looking to the things in common and have a general feeling of respect for one another

Good points, I think this thread was good though, largely because it DOES show right here exactly how so simple a thing as a sculpture, drawing, photo etc provokes so widely different reactions, this is the same reaction the material gets in a gallery or public space. The same sort of thing happened at a University where a pair of bronze deer by DeIvoye was installed and then moved around back out of general view. Some loved it some hated it, if you didn't like the marble you won't like DeIvoye's bronze deer- the newspapers of all things even partly censored the images of it- that's where we are going these days- fig leaf for Michaelangelo's David and cropping photos of deer statues.

[HappySculpting]

Rehi, you'd likely think differently if you knew me better on a more personal level, plus I'm 100% an agnostic which doesn't make for good relations with those who aren't. Though a web site I run for a radio station I did appoint a minister as a moderator, still, the barrier, feelings and conflict is there regardless of how we can turn off such things during professinal interactions.

I know and care for numerous people who are agnostic. All that means is that you don't know if there is a God or not. Why would I look down on you for that? I don't know if I knew you on a personal level how we'd fare... I guess hope for the best.

always feel free to share your feelings---no negativity here
they fill in the voids to communicate you as a complete person as well as a gifted and hardworking sculptor

Thanks for saying that and I'm so glad you weren't speaking of me in that earlier comment about the young girl. Wish I would have figured that on the spot. Anyway, Landseer helped me figure it out. Your compliments are so appreciated because as you said, to have "the respect of ones peers is the perhaps the most value." You're opinion and earlier compliments on my lady thread were among my very favorite.

I have so much to learn and these forums are so wonderful and have spurred me on in so many ways. I hope I can contribute in a positive way and help others here. I'll try and fill in a little info about myself from time to time but being careful not to offend. We certainly don't need negativity, after all we didn't come here for that. We're here for the comradry of us all being sculptors!

I just got an e-mail nibble from an HGTV producer-and must try to figgure out what to write in response to try'n hook this one------
advice appreciated
and/or--keep a good thought

rod

What's this about? There's a gal on the Wet Canvas,(she's the moderator), her title is "Lady Rando" and her name is Tamara Dozier. Anyway, she was featured on the show "Crafters of America" or something to that effect. I think it was on HGTV. She sculpts cute little fantasy creatures like gargoyles, etc. Not sure what you're deal is about but if it's similar you could maybe contact her to get the low down on how it went. Keep us posted on what happens. That sounds like a good exposure possibility.

[RCFA-Raven]

As a mother, I do senser some art from my son. Some art is very erotic or violent and I feel not appropiate for his age. I do not sensor him from all nude art. I think as a parent I should have the right what to sensor my child from. When he becomes an adult he can senser for himself.

(Of course there is much he is exposed to that I don't aprove of. Fortunitely, communication is good between us and I let him know where I stand on those issues.)

[Landseer]

Originally Posted by RCFA-Raven

As a mother, I do senser some art from my son. Some art is very erotic or violent and I feel not appropiate for his age. I do not sensor him from all nude art. I think as a parent I should have the right what to sensor my child from. When he becomes an adult he can senser for himself.

Ok, so you censor some of what he might see, but what is his age? closer to 5 or closer to 17? I believe a 5 year old's comprehension is way different than a 17 year old of course.

Back in the 50's the media in some form or other used to publish photos of auto accidents and the like, I have seen some magazines extolling the dangers of careless driving and showing a number of very graphic images of bodies and body parts at accident scenes. Of course the impact is less shocking when the photos are black and white, still...
Now they will not show such things even with a sheet covering, seems the body "form" laying under a sheet is now still too shocking for viewers.

Yet, curiously in the news recently are graphic details of that child abduction-murder case, right down to detailing in explicitly minute descriptions the exact plans the accused had for the body- step by step, and where the police found the body, the marks/injuries it had and so forth.
I would say a child reading in the media - CBS news of all places- about another child being abducted strangled and the plans of the accused to dismember, drain blood, cut up, bar-b-cue and eat the body, discard the bones and organs are far worse than 99% of the paintings, drawings and sculptures out there!

The news went on to describe the knives, skewers and other things in his posession and speculated on their uses.

That all goes WAY beyond simply reporting the news, a simple "tortured and murdered" was enough to get the concept of the case without knowing about bar-b-cue skewers and his sick plans.

[RCFA-Raven]

Ok, so you censor some of what he might see, but what is his age? closer to 5 or closer to 17? I believe a 5 year old's comprehension is way different than a 17 year old of course.

He is 14 now. Yes, I senser what I feel is appropiate for his age as we go along.

[ilona]

Landseer, I hear you and agree with you. What my kids can potentially see on the news is much more worrisome than any nudity in art could ever be.

Then again, I live in a state where we have a representative currently trying to make sex toys illegal. In 2003 SC had the highest incidence of domestic violence in the country, but our lawmakers are too busy trying to make vibrators illegal to worry about that sort of thing.

Go figure.