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  #26  
Old 09-04-2010, 05:46 PM
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ahirschman ahirschman is offline
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
If one knows oneself as a timeless being caught in a vast ocean of eternity, change as regards the emphemeral tastes of the "art world" barely makes a blip on the significance radar. In terms of cosmic consciousness this world has very little of value to offer when it comes to the human mind trying to be clever by being different. "Change" might refer to one scrap out of the endless sea of astral nonsense being exchanged for another, all part of a parade destined to amuse some for a time, and be discarded without regret and on to the next thing.

To create a timeless work is much more difficult. It also involves the risk of disassociating oneself from the stream of "modernism" and the temporal rewards that come to those who master that game, and those who make a living promoting it.
Glenn, if I understand you correctly, then your view of art and my view seem to be just about 180 degrees out of phase. I view art as being a purely human construct, highly tied to a period, a particular culture and a society. Art builds on itself and borrows left and right. It borrows from other artists, from other arts, from other cultures, from life and death, from religion and so fort. Just about all the "Timeless" works of art that I know became that way because they offered a clever jump, a new understanding, a clearer insight into something new. That new thing was sometimes a better understanding of how the human mind perceives light, form, volume, or a way to capture an image in a more realistic manner or... ad infinitum.
Even our notion of timelessness is very short lived. In art, timelessness is probably a few hundred years and then the work starts to fade. True, we still admire a small finite set of artworks that have survived longer.

Many "timeless" works from other cultures would probably not be something that was enjoyed in "our" culture.

Art is a purely human construct. Sculpture is one of the many arts that allow an artist to interpret some aspect of their life experience and present it to others (eventually). Some artists choose to make art about their experience with god. Other artists choose to make art about their experience of the absence of god. Some interpret death, others life. The human experience.

Since we are also talking about time, we should remember that time is a purely human construct. I have yet to see a good definition of time in a scientific journal. That aside, I am happy with my human interpretation of time. I get older.

To aspire to paint like a great master is irrelevant at this point. I think most well trained (and competent) painters can achieve that goal. Is it useful? perhaps, but I would call an artist that paints "Just" like a great master a great craftsman. Like I said before, the great masters became great masters because they were valued for some bit of innovation that they gifted the rest of humanity (within their sphere/culture).

I will dare say that most "artists" value this sense of creativity, innovation, or gifting the world with something new and interesting and refreshing. Of course, we still admire the amazing hand that a master craftsman must have to produce a beautiful work that can be compared to one of the old masters, be it furniture, painting, sculpture or any thing else.

Art is foremost for the here and now. Then, it does what it does. It is pushed around by the whirlwind of the art-world, by curators, or by refuse collectors on their weekly pickups.

Art is the human experience - distilled, highlighted.

Ari.
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  #27  
Old 09-04-2010, 05:52 PM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

It is, of course, impossible to make something that is "timeless".
In fact, even if you could succeed, you would mostly have succeeded in sucking all the interest, on every level, out of it.

What makes art vibrant, interesting, and worth looking at is PRECISELY the "time" that went into it.

A nude carving of a man, done in marble, executed in 2000 BC is very different from one done in 1700, and similarly different from one done today. And what gives each one depth, interest, and individualisation is the time that it was done- the influences, the context, the culture, all affect the result.

Beethoven could only have existed at the time he did- an era where a tiny white male upper class could have the leisure to compose, and appreciate, very theoretical music, which required an expensive orchestra of trained musicians to perform- and an aristocracy to support its creation.

Far from timeless, what makes it great is how grounded in its time it was- an era where most of the great musics of the world were unknown to its creator and its audience, where the vocal chants of africa, where the non-standard scales of asian music, where the gorgeous atonalism of javanese gamelan music or the ecstatic drumming of Jajouka were simply absent from the frame of reference.

Instead, it is a music strictly of the emotions- no body, no beat, you cant dance to it. And no intellect, in the sense of language, to intrude on its universal accessibility.

The very cultural isolationism of renaissance europe meant that it could be created- a very unique time and place.

Similarly, all visual art has, built into its DNA, clues to the cultural milieu of its time and place of creation, and, in fact, that is why we like great art.
Because truly great art equally reflects it origin point, as refracted thru the unique mind of the artist who made it.

I also would discard this whole notion of "innovation".
A great artist is a great artist, regardless of time or place they inhabit, because of how they see the world, and how they are able to show US how the see it.

This is not some linear progression, with a predictable series of "improvements" or milestones- at any time in history, it is possible for a great realist painter to be born, or a great guitarist, or a great carver, or a great poet. They have in the past, they will be again in the future.

Of course, the work they do will reflect their time.
It could not be otherwise.

As for the comparison to some television soundtrack- completely a straw man.

One is a work of art. The other, a commercial product, meant mainly to advertise a moneymaking venture.
If you want to make a fair comparison, of modern, versus "classical" music, I would instead propose you consider the merits of something formidable- say, Miles Davis doing Jack Johnson-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrmQwreKssw

Here is something that is pretty much the opposite of Beethoven in every way.
Instead of being authoritarian, with a single composer dictating how a group should play the same thing the same way every time, we have a group of the most skilled musicians on earth at that time collaborating and improvising. Anarchy, as opposed to order.
We have the group result being BETTER than the act of solitary genius- a concept Evaldart hates, in sculpture- but which clearly works in music.
Miles could, and did, call up any musician on earth, and ask them to play with him. He got results that no one else, before, or since, could. Music that is, just like Beethoven, appreciated by a small percentage of the population in every country, that is not popular, but is intellectually challenging, and which continues to hold up 40 years later.
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Last edited by Ries : 09-04-2010 at 06:03 PM.
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  #28  
Old 09-04-2010, 06:22 PM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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I also would discard this whole notion of "innovation".
A great artist is a great artist, regardless of time or place they inhabit, because of how they see the world, and how they are able to show US how the see it.

This is not some linear progression, with a predictable series of "improvements" or milestones- at any time in history, it is possible for a great realist painter to be born, or a great guitarist, or a great carver, or a great poet. They have in the past, they will be again in the future.
Ries, I like very much what you said about "A great artist is...". It brings my mind back to the essence of being an artist. But, with regards to innovation, I think that society at large, has dictated that the "premium art" is that art which has some innovation in it. That is what populates all the museums I have seen over the world. Of course, maybe this thing about museums selecting this "premium art" is a temporary change in the art world (probably started in the early 1900's). Maybe something will come along and change this, as the internet is doing for the art of music.

I also partially disagree with what you said about there not being a "linear progression with a predictable series of improvements". While improvements may not be "predictable", they tend to be linear in the sense that the art work builds on the previous artwork. It is linear with small unpredictable jumps here and there. Maybe that is what you meant. Perhaps, exponential would be better than linear, but that still makes it locally linear.

When I used to work in high tech we called these interesting jumps "Disruptive technology." That applies to art as well.

AH.

Last edited by ahirschman : 09-04-2010 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Adding content about museums.
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  #29  
Old 09-04-2010, 06:32 PM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

First- "Society at large" doesnt give a damn about art.

Only a very very tiny percentage of mankind even knows most art exists.

The actual audience for art is much less than 1% of the population.

It is true, that tiny percentage of people that actually go to art galleries, read art magazines, go to museums, and buy art, does tend to be amused by novelty.

But nowadays, every style of art, every era of art, sells.
There is no tossing aside of the old masters just because Damien Hirst exists.
If anything, the earlier styles of art are MORE popular, MORE expensive, and MORE available to see in museums than ever before.

Innovation exists- in the sense that when an artist brings something to the table that wasnt considered before, such as Duchamp, with his introduction of irony and the manipulation of industrial products- other artists notice.
But not all artists instantly became conceptual artists once Duchamp introduced the concept- a few did, most didnt.
Certainly, once a new concept is in play, everybody is influenced by it, no matter how much they deny it- but again, I dont believe there is a strict progression in one direction.

The camera changed everything- even the way realist painters considered painting still lives- but that doesnt mean everybody instantly dropped what they were doing and became photographers.

So- is that linear progress?
Or is it just the fact that every artist is subtly influenced by their environment, and, since our environment changes with time, art does too?
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  #30  
Old 09-04-2010, 06:36 PM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

A lot of good thought to work with in these posts, much that I disagree with but would take a lot of time to respond to. But this one stood out on the ridiculometer:

Quote:
Beethoven could only have existed at the time he did- an era where a tiny white male upper class could have the leisure to compose, and appreciate, very theoretical music, which required an expensive orchestra of trained musicians to perform- and an aristocracy to support its creation.
First of all, if you know anything about Beethoven's youth, it was not a matter of upper class leisure. And many of the great composers, who existed before and after the era that you claim as unique to nuturing his talents, had to struggle mightily to find ways and means to support their art.

Secondly, had there not been the phenomena of "aristocracy" to support expensive orchestras ( Does the aristocracy support today's orchestras?), there were countless works for solo instrument, duo's, quartets, etc. that these people composed which did not require an expensive orchestra to play.

The use of phrases like "tiny white male upper class ", "aristocracy" "authoritarian" to describe composing music for others to perform almost makes me think you got your mind warped in grad school.

You did a better job of it here:

Quote:
A great artist is a great artist, regardless of time or place they inhabit, because of how they see the world, and how they are able to show US how the see it.

This is not some linear progression, with a predictable series of "improvements" or milestones- at any time in history, it is possible for a great realist painter to be born, or a great guitarist, or a great carver, or a great poet. They have in the past, they will be again in the future.

Of course, the work they do will reflect their time.
It could not be otherwise.
That is similar to what I have been trying to say about "timeless" work. Whether or not their work reflects their time is incidental to the quality, the depth of thought and emotion that goes into the work. A timeless work will transcend the era in which the artist worked, lesser works will only have peaked for that era and not endured as having much more to add to later eras.

Your example of Miles Davis is a fairer comparison to Beethoven than my example of a TV jingo if we are discussing quality, but I chose my example to make a clearer point. I was addressing timeless versus ephemeral. Miles is not much different than Beethoven as far as having created music of a "timeless" quality. The difference in form and structure between the men two has nothing to do with ephemeral versus timeless.

Improvising is not akin to anarchy, unless it is done by the unskilled and unimaginative. It is rather the entering into a state of attunement with one's fellow musicians that pulls upon their collective knowledge and skill, but requires their mutual support. If the mutual support aspect is missing, then you can call it anarchy.
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  #31  
Old 09-04-2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

good thing I never went to grad school, eh?

On Beethoven, we will have to agree to disagree- cause I still maintain that it was the aristocracy of an extremely isolated europe that allowed classical music like that to exist.

But Damien Hirst, the original object of discussion, is not ephemeral.
And he is not comparable to a TV jingle.

He is an artist, just like you and me.
He went to art school, which we all know is NOT a route to fame and fortune- the actual percentage of artists who become wealthy and famous is less than the number of street corner hoop shooters who become NBA stars.

YOU may not like his work- but he makes it for the same reason you make your work, and I make mine- because he is driven to by some odd disease we artists have.

The fact that he became so well known is kinda irrelevant- I have no doubt that he is one of the ones who would be making art regardless of sales.

And the original link, to an article that discusses how Hirst is currently painting pictures himself, as opposed to the factory style of mass produced paintings he was cranking out, sort of illustrates to me that he is, indeed, most interested in the work, not the profits or fame.

I cant tell if I like the paintings or not, from those tiny online images.
Unlike some people here, I do believe that to rationally judge a work of art, you need to actually SEE the work of art in person.
I have seen a fair selection of Hirst's work- a dozen or two, at least, in several different of his styles.
Some, I liked. Some, I didnt.
But there was no clear signs, when looking at the work in person, that it was some sort of scam or hoax or obviously "ephemera"- in fact, it looked like art- and all art is different- some works, some doesnt.

Unlike the jingle writer, Hirst was not commissioned to create his work to sell products- he makes what he wants, some sells, and some, notoriously, does not.
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  #32  
Old 09-05-2010, 12:19 AM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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Timelessness is not at all antithetical to innovation.
It's not indeed. Just look at Giacometti's Walking Man.

To me timelessness - the way I perceive it- is the very essence of artmaking. It's a continuous will to scrape together everything an artist got and use it to build a presence for the present, but it should be accessible to future and past (*) audiences as well. The artwork needs to be personal yet understood by others regardless of when it was made.

*If time travel would be possible, I'd die to show Walking Man to Michelangelo and Dali to Bosch to see their reaction.
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  #33  
Old 09-05-2010, 07:07 AM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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*If time travel would be possible, I'd die to show Walking Man to Michelangelo and Dali to Bosch to see their reaction.
Dali undoubtedly saw it - so that should save you one stop on your trip through time.
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  #34  
Old 09-05-2010, 09:11 AM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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Dali undoubtedly saw it - so that should save you one stop on your trip through time.
Cheese, you missed the implied comma.


This timelessness burden sucks all the life out of it for me.

I'm contemplating a theory that, in general, subscribes to the thought that any art that reminds people of a plump sofa will be accessible regardless of subject or content. That constitutes accessibility.
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  #35  
Old 09-05-2010, 10:26 AM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

The whole claim of timelessness in art is built on a house of cards. It requires the vaguest of definitions of art, meaning, audience, appreciation. Makes me think of Shelley's Ozymandias.

I'm with AH: art, like language is a cultural construct. And while recent linguistics work points to some hard-wired ability to make language, nothing is wired to favor english over Japanese or czech etc. Likewise, there is nothing inherent in the appreciation of Rembrandt. That we in the west continue to honor his portraiture, says more about us than Rembrandt. People pay thousands and worship their collections of baseball cards.

Glennt: The most unsavory part of this timeless artstuff is the implication that one wishes to compete with God as creator. Christian tradition informs us the Big Man is the one and only. Isn't any attempt to emulate him hubristic idolatry at best and competitvely Satanic at worst?

As for the actual creation of timless art, if the gospels of sacred Christianity are impermanant how can you expect art to be any different?

This may be a long reach for you but i originally teased the discussion with the gospel of Thomas(thomas for those who don't know was the twin brother of Jesus--anyone up for potty humor can get a chuckle out of the fact that twin in biblical greek also means testicle). It is a codex disovered in the 20th century and dated by most scholars to around 150AD(though some date it as earlier than Q, written soon after christ's death). Because it was buried soon after being written it has notundergone the centuries of modifications the rest of the bible/gospels have. It can thus be considered the PURER form of the word of god. And yet, much of it is incoherent to us, like logia 7, the lion parable. And was is not incoherent is written in rather drab language with none of the poetry of the reworked king James. Why do you suppose that is? To cut things short, if the word of god is nottimless, how can you expect art to be?
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  #36  
Old 09-05-2010, 10:51 AM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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Glennt: The most unsavory part of this timeless artstuff is the implication that one wishes to compete with God as creator. Christian tradition informs us the Big Man is the one and only. Isn't any attempt to emulate him hubristic idolatry at best and competitvely Satanic at worst?

1. The implication as stated may be in your head, but not mine. I like to honor and express my love and joy in experiencing God's creation. That is not competing, were such a thing even possible.

2. I could give a hoot about Christian tradition if that tradition got it wrong. Jesus' own words were, "These works and greater works shall ye do..."
Why did he say that? Because Jesus had become the Christ, and was letting us know that we are all sons and daughters of God, and demonstrating what fully merging with the Christ Self is like.
Later, to control people, the priest-class reworked doctrine, which became tradition, which says that person Jesus, rather than the Christ in all of us, is the one and only Son of God. Thus, the path went from one of becoming the Christ (remember how the disciples could heal and perform other "miracles"?) to one of a sort of idol worship of one person, and a priest class in charge of dispensing the ways and means of doing things. Which is not to make a blanket statement about priests and churches, as there are the good and the bad as in anything. And despite any misdirection, many have found their way because the sincere soul can still connect to the truth despite the obstacles, and focusing on the person of Jesus is, by virtue of what he had become, focusing on the Christ.
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  #37  
Old 09-05-2010, 11:25 AM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

glennt
unfortunately your rigors in biblical scholarship don't compare to your rigors in art.

there is no such thing as Jesus' words. The bible is a collection of documents written many years after Christ's death by his disciples. The words you quote are the words of others which have been modified over time to suit their audiences. You mention priest class, but the disciples were as guilty of manipulating material as any of the catholic soldiers. its really a function of where you want to intersect the story with your conspiracies.

Example: The whole resurrection fantasy is not to be found in all the gospels.Why would that be?

the greater irony of Jesus' philosophy: the basic texts show Jesus wishing for people not to worship him as son of god, but to live quasi-platonic examined lives. He was not about hero worship. Making christ central is like electing an anarchist to the presidency, it sort of goes against the creed.

The current flavor of apocalyptic christianity, the bourne-again stuff, is a modern creation rotted to good ol' religious firebrand james nelson garvey.
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  #38  
Old 09-05-2010, 11:31 AM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

Quote:
If time travel would be possible, I'd die to show Walking Man to Michelangelo and Dali to Bosch to see their reaction.
Quote:
if you know anything about Beethoven's youth
Quote:
Jesus' own words were, "These works and greater works shall ye do..."
If Michelangelo were alive to day he'd be with the times and not doing commission work for churches. Priests aren't so popular today.

If Beethoven was alive today he wouldn't waste his time with "classical" music . He was a visionary and would be way ahead of cellos, violins and all those ancient acoustic stringed instruments.



If Jesus came back he wouldn't be wearing robes. He might remind you that pulsars spin hundreds of times a minute and a teaspoonful of their matter weighs a billion tons, and that humans are a corrupt low energy form.

If DH lived during an other time period I bet he would have been a success doing what was needed then.
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  #39  
Old 09-05-2010, 11:49 AM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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there is no such thing as Jesus' words. The bible is a collection of documents written many years after Christ's death by his disciples. The words you quote are the words of others which have been modified over time to suit their audiences. sort of goes against the creed.
If that is all the excuse you need to avoid becoming the Christ, so be it.

At some point, one has to believe in something, and if you have your doubts, why not select that which helps you become the best you can possibly be?*

As for this:
Quote:
Example: The whole resurrection fantasy is not to be found in all the gospels.Why would that be?
Your sentence is correct when you apply the word "fantasy". But the actuality is in fact described in the gospels. Perhaps you did not make it to the end of each of the gospels where it appears.


*which does not tend towards the cynical mocking of faith as a typical means of expression.
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  #40  
Old 09-05-2010, 12:56 PM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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If DH lived during an other time period I bet he would have been a success doing what was needed then.
Yes Joe...I think this was my point and I admire his entrepreneurship..

Reis,
I am not sure what your saying but I think great art like great music can appeal to that part that makes us human and that transcends time and culture. A good example are the cave paintings discovered in France and Spain that date back 32,000 years.

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  #41  
Old 09-05-2010, 12:56 PM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

is grhb mocking faith, or identifying hubris?

Giotto, that sort of reminds me of a plump sofa...
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  #42  
Old 09-05-2010, 01:40 PM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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If Michelangelo were alive to day he'd be with the times and not doing commission work for churches. Priests aren't so popular today.

If you read Michelangelo's confession of faith (see favorite quotes thread), you might perceive that he was involved in his work by conviction, and not because of how popular or not priests were. He followed his vision, and not the times. So he could be doing church work today or not. But you can be sure he wouldn't be doing crap just because it was "with the times."

If Beethoven was alive today he wouldn't waste his time with "classical" music . He was a visionary and would be way ahead of cellos, violins and all those ancient acoustic stringed instruments.

As a visonary, he would find the today musical instruments best suited to express his visionary music. Which may or may not involve acoustic stringed instruments. If you get out of the house more often, you might discover that people still express new ideas with those instruments. And they usually sound a lot better than electronic ones that rely on shock and awe of volume rather than subtlety of humanly modulated tonal qualities .

If Jesus came back he wouldn't be wearing robes. He might remind you that pulsars spin hundreds of times a minute and a teaspoonful of their matter weighs a billion tons, and that humans are a corrupt low energy form.

So you think Einstein was Jesus come again? And I think he would wear robes, at least coming out of the shower.

If DH lived during an other time period I bet he would have been a success doing what was needed then.
DH doesn't do what is needed (by the world and era he lives in), he does what he thinks he needs, yielding financial success and notariaty, but does that make him a success as a person?
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  #43  
Old 09-05-2010, 01:50 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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DH doesn't do what is needed (by the world and era he lives in), he does what he thinks he needs, yielding financial success and notariaty, but does that make him a success as a person?
His financial success is a demonstration that he is giving some others what they need (I don't understand this but I do understand capitalism)....being successful as a person is a totally different question.

Grommet
Here is another cave painting I like. It is another timeless piece of great art. From Cueva de las Manos (Spanish for "Cave of the Hands") is located in Argentina, said to date from 550 BC.

G
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  #44  
Old 09-05-2010, 02:00 PM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

Bad choice, Giotto. I can see that one reminding grommet of an ottoman!
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Old 09-05-2010, 02:17 PM
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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If you get out of the house more often, you might discover that people still express new ideas with those instruments. And they usually sound a lot better than electronic ones that rely on shock and awe of volume rather than subtlety of humanly modulated tonal qualities .
Its all debatable. I've heard a plethora of bands incorporating cellos and violins, or electronic versions of both, and using bows on electric guitars, and acoustic instruments run through all kinds of electronic gear, and also played clean(but you have to sit close). Trust me, I get out a lot. It will be 4x in the next 7 days. Also, I was raised on Beethoven, which I've heard performed in several countries.
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Old 09-05-2010, 03:04 PM
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Ries Ries is offline
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

Personally, if I want to feel close to the absolute, I listen to this-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CslaDEc2PS8

this is what I call art, not ephemera.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:24 PM
grhb grhb is offline
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

giotto--Just wondering, do you think the cave paintings hold the same meaning for cavemen as moderns?

glennt--gospels q and t make no mention of resurrection. As i recall, Matthew and paul earlier writings (40-70ad)included nothing except an awakening within me(paul) and an empty tomb(matthew). Their stories were modified with new endings and by 85ad unified into a resurrection story. Jerome's full translation gave us the basis what we call the bible today. Personally, i think resurrection is a detriment to one of the most powerful of social philosophies--that preached by Yeshewa--how to get along.

Ries-- i think society does give a damn about art; its measuring how much they care that is difficult. I'd say art is like electricity: no one really cares how or what it takes to make and transmit those electrons, they just know they want light when they hit their switches.
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Old 09-06-2010, 09:09 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

actually, the cave of hands photo looks sort of like the fabric on the sofa. The timeless interpretation is perhaps carried by themes that represent the basics of survival: care & continuation of the species, food, shelter, ritual, etc. timeless = security?
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Old 09-06-2010, 09:46 AM
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suburbanartists suburbanartists is offline
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

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Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
DH doesn't do what is needed (by the world and era he lives in), he does what he thinks he needs, yielding financial success and notariaty, but does that make him a success as a person?
He is just a tool for others to make cash from. You all just give him a pass when the whole gang was completely busted for jacking up prices thru inside sales agreements and fake auction deals? Sure he was glad to be on that gravy train steered by the most loaded guns out there. Gallery owners pump and dump scams ran amuck with this guy. Now he wants to weasle his way back to ligitimacy. What has he done that is so great? Or even good? I don't hate the guy for making cash just have no respect for him as an artist or human being. If he was a stock broker he wouldn't be far from Bernie madoff.
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Old 09-06-2010, 01:27 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: What is Damien Hirst really up to?

grhb

About 40,000 years ago humanity went through a huge change. Anthropologists call it the "creative explosion". The time when we first started using symbols, created art, music and we started burying our dead. When we did this we often placed flowers and other artifacts with the bodies and this is thought to be the birth of religion.

So our desire to create art is not societal but rather comes from within us as humans. To answer your question, the specific meaning of a work of art will change from culture to culture but the underlaying reason and motivation to produce and view art is to be found within us.

Grommet
Sofa art came much later as a higher level consciousness developed ....about the time the first caveman noticed the cave painting didn't match the rock underneath it and went out to a rock store to buy a new one.
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