Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net  

Go Back  Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net > Sculpture Roundtable Discussions > Sculpture focus topics
User Name
Password
Home Sculpture Community Photo Gallery ISC Sculpture.org Register FAQ Members List Search New posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 08-02-2010, 05:04 PM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Postmodernism

The issue I take is that despite culture and it's seemingly overwhelming influence, the individual will never be able to succumb completely. My own understanding of postmodernism is that everything we know or have known in the past is questioned. Essentially boiling down to two points; We can "know" through faith or through reason, but each method and result will eventually be suspect. The best science can give us is a theory, which may or may not eventually succumb to a better theory and "faith" simply skips the reasoning part. Of-course one can simply dismiss criticism altogether by asserting that there's no such thing as Art any more than there is a tooth fairy or an easter bunny.

Last edited by StevenW : 08-02-2010 at 05:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-02-2010, 06:04 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Eugene Oregon
Posts: 502
Re: Postmodernism

Joe,
When I said it's slow at the beginning...I meant the first 3/4. It takes him that long to began to make his point. i.e. The result of contemporary media through consumerism is the erosion of the individual..

Here George Carlin says it in a funny way
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=159216125164

Steve,
That is a good and thought provoking summary
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:07 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Postmodernism

Individuals continue to improve by the acceleration of anti-evolutionary consciousness; that is, the betterment that occurs in the regular fashion by natural selection driven by the boring goal of species-survival is de-prioritized.
So, when you witness a deterioration in the culture or "civilization" - the GROUP - you are actually witnessing the RISE of the individual. And the best part about rising individuals is that they are not interested at all in the spoils of any evolutionary, cultural or commercial "winners".

It is a spreading contagion - this disdain or even forsaking of "bigger-picture" human affluence; fueled by the internal rewards of higher consideration. And as "higher considerers" consort, reflect and interact over sandwiches and boxed wine, they stimulate each others departure.

Its all in long term, and quite un-natural opposition to the complaints and criticisms folks-in-general might have against where they THINK they see humanity is going. Because "humanity" is not and has never-been anywhere. It has always just been the individual...against everything else. And by hard work and nerves of steel anyone can feel quite ever "achieving" in thier personal little infinity.

So you see. Its all only getting better and better and can go NO other way.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-02-2010, 10:50 PM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Postmodernism

Hi Joe, I agree, Freud was great and it will be another few generations before he is DE-vilified..

Pity really,.. If he had substituted any other word for envy the masses wouldn't have come down on him the way they did and we'd be talking more and popping less pills..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-02-2010, 11:13 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Postmodernism

Quote:
it will be another few generations before he is DE-vilified..

Pity really,.. If he had substituted any other word for envy the masses wouldn't have come down on him the way they did
Internet porn will speed things up, not to mention regular old tv. Heck, even music. A local band does a cover of the Ramones "Beat on the Brat with a Baseball Bat" substituting "my dick" for baseball bat. Its a hit(all puns intended).
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 08-02-2010, 11:19 PM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Postmodernism

The Ramones were the sh*t. Black Flag, The Dead Kennedy's.. Man I miss that stuff. Oh well, according to the perfessor we're all living in dwindling bastions of individuality. I happen to share Matt's optimism though and despite government meddling like "Every Child Left behind" I think the future will be bright.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-03-2010, 02:50 AM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Postmodernism

Quote:
I think the future will be bright.
You must believe in an after life. You won't find one live old fogy that agrees with you on the future.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-03-2010, 08:30 AM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Postmodernism

The belief in an "after-nothing" is exactly as troublesome, distracting and damaging to the progress of a consciousness as the belief in an afterlife. It is a limited view to buy-into the one dimensional observation that "time" has anything to do with being. Time, actually, has everything to do with the obsessive/compulsive disorder that focuses on the falsity to "things" LOSING their being.
Plenty of old fogy's have made its past this (some young fogy's too). But it takes work...a little brain strain; a little sweat.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-03-2010, 09:23 AM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Postmodernism

Quote:
It is a limited view to buy-into the one dimensional observation that "time" has anything to do with being. Time, actually, has everything to do with the obsessive/compulsive disorder...
I bet you were always on time when your mommy made dinner, probably obsessively/compulsively so.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-03-2010, 10:31 AM
tobias tobias is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: canada
Posts: 749
Re: Postmodernism

Cheese my problem with the it's all art view is that if it's all art doesn't that really mean that there is no art.
If the world is art then don't we have a situation where it is better to make craft pieces? They will at least exist then.
In reality isn't all this talk about what is and isn't art , what isum it belongs to, contrary to it's self?
If everything is art what is there to discuss?
Art is dead. So let it rot and let's just get on with making some F ing sculpture.

That's what it's about right? The work not some silly over thought box or title.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:52 AM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Postmodernism

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobias View Post
Cheese my problem with the it's all art view is that if it's all art doesn't that really mean that there is no art.
If the world is art then don't we have a situation where it is better to make craft pieces? They will at least exist then.
In reality isn't all this talk about what is and isn't art , what isum it belongs to, contrary to it's self?
If everything is art what is there to discuss?
Art is dead. So let it rot and let's just get on with making some F ing sculpture.

That's what it's about right? The work not some silly over thought box or title.
Right T, there is nothing to be gained by the "everything is art" discussion (might as well call god an artist as since he "created" it then its ALL art). But there is much to be gained by the "very-little is art" discussion; because that exchange causes moments of (intellectual) commitment - and then a proper reinforcing/dismantling can affect the changes in said commitment that paralles or imitates the unfolding commitments of action that occur during the creative process (but is nothing like the linear cause-and-effect proceeding that direct activities that serve function).

But as much as I would like it to be about the "work" or the object or the artifact or the product I am continually reminded (or tricked by the anti-climax) that it is really about the terminal "incompleteness" of what we do when we are sufficiently engaged in go-time. We stop to rest, punctuate, abbreviate and reflect our efforts because of the sapping pull of Nature; but we regain our fortitude and go back - NOT to "finish" anything - but to re-engage in the only intensity that yield fulfilling recollection for those quiet moments when bucks are earned and , yes, DINNER is served...and for that you MUST be on time (the ants made clocks, and calenders and stuff for that, you know).
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-03-2010, 12:41 PM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Postmodernism

"Incompleteness" is an important facet because it describes everything about us and nothing can ever be fully-complete, except of-course for the big one and that resides solely in the realm of potential. The melancholy realisation that once the engagement ends and it is time to evaluate and ponder the artifact released is then mixed with an uncomfortable uncertainty as to what is next. The only thing that is ever actually complete is the tip of the chisel..
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08-03-2010, 12:55 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Eugene Oregon
Posts: 502
Re: Postmodernism

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobias View Post
Cheese my problem with the it's all art view is that if it's all art doesn't that really mean that there is no art.
If the world is art then don't we have a situation where it is better to make craft pieces? They will at least exist then.
In reality isn't all this talk about what is and isn't art , what isum it belongs to, contrary to it's self?
If everything is art what is there to discuss?
Art is dead. So let it rot and let's just get on with making some F ing sculpture.

We are talking about several different things. An essential element in the postmodernist manifesto is that there are no truths. So no Great Art. Only stuff people make and if they want to call it art fine because there is no truth. art with a small "a"

My personal belief is that there is "Great Art" and it comes from Great artists....and who are these people ? Generally speaking they are individuals who have reached a higher level of consciousness or awareness. I mean this in the non religious sense. i.e. "Higher consciousness is generally regarded as a developed state of consciousness in which aspects of the mind, such as thought, perception and attention, are improved, refined and enhanced. It is considered thus to be a higher level of consciousness relative to ordinary consciousness, in the sense that a greater awareness..." This comes through introspection, rational thinking and education.

The state of our culture can't be blamed on post modernism entirely. I think it's more about the world of consumer and material appetites driven and controlled by capitalism. As for wether we are declining or rising as a culture it's hard to say. We have more stuff.....but then SAT scores have dropped 80 points, attention spans have declined as a result of TV, Obesity claims 30% of our population, our school children are performing at a lower level than much of the western world etc. so I can't say for sure... but I can say that if you look around you ...everything you see was bought and sold by someone. The power and influence of consumerism over rational thought permeates, and "dumbs down" our culture...so I agree with Rick and George...There are forces out there that want you to think you are the Marlboro man when you smoke cigarettes, the most interesting man when you drink XX beer, you need to be young, glamorous and live in a big house....and if you can't afford it...put it on the card.

G
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08-03-2010, 02:47 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Postmodernism

ALL versions of conspiracy scenarios are irrelevant, paranoid, numbingly distracting and nothing but nonsense (Oh I know...thats what "THEY" want me to think).

Tests scores and statistics are driven by the point of view (or employer) of the bean-counter. I have seen articles/stats that prove children are far smarter than the Huck-Finns and David Copperfields of the good ol days BECAUSE of advanced tech/media/electronics.

Attention span? Hah! For some exceptional individuals the same second can contain multiple concurrent thoughts that dovetail into an instant of exhilerating and inspiring self-satisfaction. So what if they decided to UNfocus from your regular world while you just blinked.

If you mention A.D.H.D you're in for an ass-chewin'
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08-03-2010, 02:57 PM
cheesepaws's Avatar
cheesepaws cheesepaws is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,137
Re: Postmodernism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giotto View Post
We are talking about several different things. An essential element in the postmodernist manifesto is that there are no truths. So no Great Art.
I don't think it is as simple as that. It's not that there are no truths, but rather that subjective truths (ones that perhaps question widely accepted objective "truths") are more the fashion. You illustrate the point nicely here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giotto View Post
My personal belief is that there is "Great Art" and it comes from Great artists....


Quote:
Originally Posted by tobias View Post
Cheese my problem with the it's all art view is that if it's all art doesn't that really mean that there is no art.
No, I'm not saying everything IS art but rather anything CAN be art. Also, claiming something to be art is one thing, having it accepted as art within the profession, by public consensus or through a cultural filter is another. Art is complex and can not be simply reduced to an "in-or-out" equation.

Do you make art? How do you know?
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 08-03-2010, 03:33 PM
chris 71's Avatar
chris 71 chris 71 is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: ont canada
Posts: 1,054
Re: Postmodernism

i always get a feel that some of you guys really think you have too be soo smart to make great art.
that you have to be some super intelectula to be able to transend to this so called higher plane of consciousness that you speak of Giotto, and that i have talked about too. all this talk about sat scores {whatever that even is i dont know}
that you have to be some schooled smart guy or whatever to make great art. i dont think so.
maybe some of you smart bastards would make even better art and get to this higer consiousness if you were dropped on your head or something
or relax enough to pull the stick outta your ass. my art is a great as any genuis and i dont consider it having anything to do with how smart i think i am or not
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 08-03-2010, 03:37 PM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Postmodernism

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesepaws View Post

No, I'm not saying everything IS art but rather anything CAN be art.
That is only a slight difference. A much larger separation occurs when you ask if something ought to be considered art.

But that runs into trouble in an age where standards and rules are not transcended but rather shunned and avoided like the plague. Judgement and discernment become dirty words.

My current take on discussing this "is it art?" issue is as follows:

Make art, or don't make art. Stop pretending. Just do it, and do it better than anyone expects you to, and better than you might have thought possible before you started.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 08-03-2010, 03:43 PM
tobias tobias is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: canada
Posts: 749
Re: Postmodernism

I try to refrain from calling my self an artist so as not to associate my self with slacker lay a bout fireplace pissers.
I call my self a sculptor.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 08-03-2010, 04:11 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Eugene Oregon
Posts: 502
Re: Postmodernism

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesepaws View Post
I don't think it is as simple as that. It's not that there are no truths, but rather that subjective truths (ones that perhaps question widely accepted objective "truths") are more the fashion.
I take your point, What I was referring to is "metanarratives" which refers to "Big Truths" like "Great Art is universal"...not things like "The earth is round" anyway that's what I have read..one could argue that the idea of distrusting metanarratives is a "big truth"
Postmodernists believe that truth comes from individuals and that there can be many truths often in conflict...that there is no grand truth, I think for me personally I am way too much of a romantic to believe that. I prefer to believe in the things that bond us together as humans...things like spiritual communion, love and even Great Art.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesepaws View Post
No, I'm not saying everything IS art but rather anything CAN be art. Also, claiming something to be art is one thing, having it accepted as art within the profession, by public consensus or through a cultural filter is another. Art is complex and can not be simply reduced to an "in-or-out" equation.
Do you make art? How do you know?
Thank you for explaining what you meant.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Sculpture Community, Sculpture.net
International Sculpture Center, Sculpture.org
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Russ RuBert