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  #1  
Old 07-21-2006, 07:17 AM
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Scout Scout is offline
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One of my pieces

This is not the relief that I am trying now. This is something I did between watercolors. I show you the unfired one as her cheek blew off in my kiln. Pisser! Anyway, I trudge on. Just thought I'd give you a look at me.

I let my interest in too many things get in the way of being good at any one. How do you deal with that? Scout
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  #2  
Old 07-21-2006, 06:28 PM
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Re: One of my pieces

Thanks for the images, Scout. Sorry about the accident, but that is common with clay. As far as "too many things", that's just a matteer of making choices. If you want one thing to succeed, give it the majority of your time (or at least devote any spare time to that choice).
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  #3  
Old 07-22-2006, 05:48 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

.

I let my interest in too many things get in the way of being good at any one. How do you deal with that? Scout[/quote]


Ciao Scout
same problem as yours. Fighting with this situation forever...with no good
result really.
I'm afraid it's not as simple as Fritchie might think it.This crave I have to use
my manuality, together with my deep feelings toward aestetic drives me from
drawing to sculpture via mosaic experimenting with "modellato" and the most
improbable media.
So it isn't by chance that the person who knows me better then anybody else
(the love of my life Elizabeth) calls me JACK OF ALL TRADES, MASTER OF NONE..!
We are therefore part of the same club. Not very numerous in members, but
rather exclusive by type.

Ciao Zagor
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  #4  
Old 07-22-2006, 07:18 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

Leonardo Di Vince never limited himself to one thing.
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  #5  
Old 07-22-2006, 09:29 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

Nice piece Scout it is a pity that she was lost in firing.
I lost some work many years ago in a kiln and went to casting copies instead, perhaps you could make a rubber mold before you fire and then you donít have to worry about losing the work. It is an added expense but you could do multiples. Unfortunately, you canít make a plaster waste mold as the plaster will give you problems when firing the original. In any case keep up the good work and don't be discouraged.

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  #6  
Old 07-22-2006, 09:38 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

Sigh! More than once I had my ceramic sculpture broken up when fired. I got so fed up that for the being, I am not going to do more. This also means I am not pursuing my earlier interest to look around to buy a kiln for myself.
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  #7  
Old 07-22-2006, 10:28 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

I am not knowledgeable about the rubber procedure. I did a small piece a few years ago but have not tried it since. The kind I used was painted on multiple times and then a clay body was formed around that so when you poured into the mold it would hold it's shape. Is that still how it's done?

If I was to make a large piece, say life size, and I was going to have it cast, would the piece stay solid inside (no hollowing out)? How would you transport a large green piece to the place to be cast?

One more small question. Describe briefly the steps in getting a large piece from brain to display. I'm sure dealing with large pieces is a whole nother ball of wax. I have no idea what casting a large piece entails.

I didn't loose her, she was glued and patinad and she sits proudly in the bushes in my yard. Along with many other pieces. Lots of pottery there too. I have 4 kilns so I hate to stop firing but if it means I don't have to hollow the figure, I'm all for it. Scout
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  #8  
Old 07-22-2006, 12:27 PM
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Re: One of my pieces

Scout
I am pleased that you did not loose your piece.
Here is a step by step process on the rubber mold procedure by Stevem
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/23808/621/

He explains how he made the sculpture with lots of photos.
Take a look, it is well set out
Regards
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  #9  
Old 07-22-2006, 04:38 PM
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Re: One of my pieces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlion
Sigh! More than once I had my ceramic sculpture broken up when fired. I got so fed up that for the being, I am not going to do more. This also means I am not pursuing my earlier interest to look around to buy a kiln for myself.
Ack!! Merlion that sucks

I did ceramic firing when I worked in a commercial ceramics place, they had 3 or 4 large kilns. The key is get the sculpture totally dry before firing, make sure when it's made you don't trap air pockets in the clay, heat the kiln
S L O W L Y, I know the electric or gas costs some bucks every hour it's on, but the slower you go the better and less shock.
The old architectural pieces were fired over 3 WEEKS, a week to heat up a week at firing temperature to saturate every piece completely to the right temperature, and a week of cooling down before opening the kiln. These were wood fired kilns so obviously they must have varied a lot during the firing process and someone had to be there monitoring 24/7

They did some HUGE thick walled amazing things and the key was they were fired slowly. Today's rush to get the cycle on and off may be the biggest cause of problems, I know pieces cracked if you opened the lid too early and started cooling the load too fast, but when the boss tells you the pot has to be packed and shipped out at 3 pm and the kiln isnt going to shut off till 2 PM, well sometimes you have to push it.
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  #10  
Old 07-22-2006, 08:22 PM
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Re: One of my pieces

Thanks Blake for that site. Very informative. Can that be used on a life size piece? Scout
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  #11  
Old 07-23-2006, 02:21 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

Scout
This process works well for larger pieces. You will want to make the mother mold (the mold that holds the rubber in place) from resin rather than plaster to keep the weight down.
My only comment here would be in my experience life-size work is difficult to place (sell), expensive to make, mold, and cast, and difficult to store.
Having said that, go for it!
keep us posted

Blake
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  #12  
Old 07-23-2006, 06:47 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

Blake, thank you for that information. I understand exactly what you mean. My goal is not to build something to sell. I want to make at least one life size piece before I die. I have neglected sculpture in favor of watercolors because of the ease of doing it. I built a business and have sold it so now I can pursue this. I am retired and can devote as much time as I like. Very big luxury for the moment.

I'm going to ask a couple of questions that I'm sure have been answered many times and that is very basic to you.....

Would you suggest I build it solid? Hollow it out? (I love hollowing things, but hard on my hands)
Stoneware OK to use?
If I hollow it, can I wrap the pieces in plastic and keep them separate until I'm ready to reattach them? That's how I do small pieces.
Since I only have a 23" kiln, I will have to fire it in several sections. I intend to high fire. Does anyone high fire large pieces anymore themselves?

One more really stupid question....what are the options when you take a large piece to be cast....what all can they cast it in? Cement or some kind of liquid stone or if you can afford it bronze? Steve used a resin, is that the best way?

Once something is cast, can you refine it at all? Modify imperfections?

I appreciate your time, I know everyone is busy. Scout
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  #13  
Old 07-23-2006, 01:24 PM
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Re: One of my pieces

Would you suggest I build it solid? Hollow it out? (I love hollowing things, but hard on my hands)
If you're doing a head bust you can fill it with a paper bag stuffed tight with shredded paper and this will burn out in the kiln. You can wrap the bag with a layer of clay and let this stiffen over night and get leather hard and then add more pieces of clay as you form the head.

As for life size... I've not done one but I know that you'll need an internal armature. Either make one with metal or wood. So this armature will have to be removed in order to fire the piece. At that time any further hollowing out could be done.

Stoneware OK to use?
If you're referring to doing a life size piece, then my thought is that using a high fire clay body, like stoneware, would give more room for warpage, shrinkage, and cracking. You could always use the stoneware and not fire it that hot. I'm not sure if the strength would be as good as using an earthenware clay and firing it to the same low fire temp. I've heard that when you use high fire clay and low fire it, then it's not as strong as the low fire clay fired to that same temp.

If I hollow it, can I wrap the pieces in plastic and keep them separate until I'm ready to reattach them? That's how I do small pieces.

As the clay shrinks it will move some and when you go and put the pieces back together they may not completely line up if you allow them to shrink/dry separately.

can afford it bronze?

If it's life sized then think about spending 8 to 12 thousand for the mold and then possibly 12 to 18 thousand for the cast in bronze. Very expensive.

Once something is cast, can you refine it at all? Modify imperfections?

If it's done in resin then you can always add plasteline clay over it like a skin and resculpt the whole thing if you want and then mold it again. I don't know about carving into the resin if, say you wanted a deeper undercut, I tend to think that wouldn't work very well.

Hope any of the knowledge that I have has been of help to you,

Take care,

Tamara
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  #14  
Old 07-23-2006, 03:44 PM
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Re: One of my pieces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout


One more really stupid question....what are the options when you take a large piece to be cast....what all can they cast it in? Cement or some kind of liquid stone or if you can afford it bronze? Steve used a resin, is that the best way?
Keep in mind that this "mold making tutorial" link is just ONE person's method and his own opinon on how to do it, and for his particular project. There must be 101 different ways and methods to make molds, none of them are 100% perfect and none of them will suit 100% of the projects.

I'm not sure why weight of the supporting shell is any real concern, the cast if you do something like this in lifesized solid anything but plastic or foam is going to weigh hundreds of pounds- which is a lot more than a reinforced plaster shell.
I weigh maybe 115# with clothes on, I have no problems with even the largest molds I have and all of them have heavy walled plaster of Paris shells, a 5 gallon pail filled to the top with hydrocal is heavier than most of them.

All the old masters made plaster shells for the molds- including those lifesized equestrian monuments!- these plastics and resins didn't exist in the 1890s, they simply put on plaster mixed with stranded hemp, horsehair or other fibers or fabrics like burlap. Nice thing about plaster is is hardens up without fail always- you dump it in water no weighing, no chemicals, no carcinogenic solvents, fumes etc and it always hardens up.
These plastics, urethanes and resins can and do get screwed up and then it stays a sticky glop that never hardens.

The article says:

"
by melting 8 ounces of vaseline in a metal container and then mixing it with a quart of mineral spirits."

but this fails to caution that mineral spirits are extremely flammable and one might be melting vaseline and mixing this stuff on the stove top and that's a dangerous combination!

Also, this vaseline "release" may not be suitable for every mold rubber- just the kind he used which so far I don't see exactly WHAT it was. Any mold rubber you get follow the rubber MAKER'S
instructions and directions on what sealers/release agents to use because if you use the wrong kind your mold is garbage can bait. What works for one type or brand of rubber can destroy another, so regardless of what a web site says go by what the manufacturer says or the risk is entirely yours.


I would also not add this cabosil powder to any mold rubber unless the directions state it CAN be added to the particular rubber, again- adding foreign materials to mold rubbers is asking for problems if you are not positive the particular brand and formula of rubber is compatable with the additives.

If you start off with a thixotropic silicone rubber like the QM140 with the thixotrophic cat ll blue- you don't NEED this cabosil thickener, nor worry about this fellow's warning that the rubber is so thin it drips off the model. Thixotropic rubber can be applied to CEILINGS or vertical surfaces and it stays put- I'm surprised he was using the rubber he was- it's murder trying to keep such liquid rubber from drizzling off the model like corn syrup for up to an hour while it sets!

I had a friend who used Smooth-on RTV that was like this, she was always frustrated that she had to spend an hour brushing the rubber back up on the model because it kept sagging and flowing down till it set up. Thixotropic rubber has been around a while, it was invented for exactly this use- vertical and other surfaces so the stuff stays put.

A good place to go for mold making ideas and pictures are these two rubber MANUFACTURER sites- go to the source for your detailed information on their specific products, they all have mold making tips, hints and more;

http://www.polytek.com
http://www.smooth-on.com

While I no longer use Polytek, they DO have a 60 page mold making booklet, it WAS on their web site in pdf file form I don't see it now. Last time I looked it was $10 for the paper copy mailed to you and then they put it up free for downloading, it may be up there somewhere I just dint see it, it's described as;


Manuals
Our 60-page Manual & Catalog is considered the best-written moldmaking information available.



Smooth-on has more, both have downloadable newsletters that usually have tips and photos.

Your lady head sculptures looks very good, very Victorian to me, congrats on a good job.


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  #15  
Old 07-23-2006, 06:33 PM
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Re: One of my pieces

Hi Scout,

I was thinking of how you said that you only have a small kiln and wish to do a life size piece. I'm in the same boat except I have a medium size kiln but one that is still too small for life size. But then I came in contact with a local potter that has a huge gas kiln. So I'm pretty sure I can persuade him to allow me fire a big piece once the time comes that I do one. He's a really nice guy.

If you don't have a potter with a big kiln nearby, what about contacting a local community college? The arts dept. might be agreeable to allowing you to fire your piece in their kiln.

I have heard of large reliefs fired separately in kilns and rejoined with mortar much like a brick wall is put together. However, I've not heard of life size ceramic work fired separately. The finished work would have a tendency to break wherever the seam line is. Ceramic work is fragile enough as it is, I wouldn't want to give added chance for an arm to break off etc.

Your girl bust is nicely modeled and has that old Victorian appeal as Landseer mentioned. Good job.

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  #16  
Old 07-23-2006, 07:43 PM
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Re: One of my pieces

Quote:

I was thinking of how you said that you only have a small kiln and wish to do a life size piece.
The arts dept. might be agreeable to allowing you to fire your piece in their kiln.

I have heard of large reliefs fired separately in kilns and rejoined with mortar much like a brick wall is put together. However, I've not heard of life size ceramic work fired separately. The finished work would have a tendency to break wherever the seam line is. Ceramic work is fragile enough as it is, I wouldn't want to give added chance for an arm to break off etc.
I don't own a kiln but plan to build one and fire it with gas, while you might be able to find a college or pottery shop to fire your piece for you, it's a longshot unless you live in a city that has them. A local guy here has a kiln but he only fires at 07 and then 7 and his kiln is not particularly large. That doesn't work for me.


If your clay is not in the firing range of the kiln owner's cones and firing schedule, you'd have to buy a box of cones and have them do a special firing just for you which can be a pain. Also, some people might be less inclined to fire your piece with their load, especially if you are new to clay because if your piece blows out in the kiln it can destroy or damage everything else in the kiln too.

Used to be the old brickyards were a source when they had huge beehive kilns, but now bricks are made in highly automated factories that load small trains up with racks full and it's timed to go through the kilns on a specific cycle.

Clay is basically clay, call it ceramic call it pottery or call it terra cotta it's basically the same stuff, common red bricks are or were fired completely solid- roughly 2" thick, 4" deep and 8" long, and face brick were high fire and very hard, they used a lot of grog and they fired slow, but anything bigger than that should be hollowed out.

The old architectural stuff when it reached a certain size were always made in sections, the models may have started out as one big piece but they were finished and then cut into pieces, sized to allow for shrinkage as well as the mortar and then simply mortared together. So when you reach a certain size with clay it needs to be dealt with differently than a 12" tall statue
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Old 07-23-2006, 07:55 PM
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Re: One of my pieces

Thanks Happysculpting and Landseer. Your suggestion about firing at the college here is funny as I fire for them. There is another college a couple of towns away. Not only am I going to ask about the kiln, I'm going to see about classes in sculpting. We live way out from a town.

I'd like to show you my first large piece. Happysculpting, I like Victorian ladies too. Thats what this large one is. Doesn't compare to yours but I'd like to show you anyway. I've been reading your thread on your technique and I am awed at your natural talent and your tenacity. Very impressive.

Landseer, You are a 60s child. Aren't you? I had a bunch of friends that you remind me of (fondly). Those were weird times but good times. If you were not a child then, you would have fit right in. We however were not as dedicated as you seem to have always been. And apparently still are. Thanks for the information, and the warning.

Zagor, I guess you can do a lot of different things? What are some of your other interests?
Scout
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  #18  
Old 07-23-2006, 09:20 PM
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Re: One of my pieces

Yeah Scout- 60's that's me
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  #19  
Old 07-24-2006, 01:46 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

Scout
Sorry I was away yesterday but I see that you got the info from our artist friends. Keep us informed, we will want to see pictures of the piece.
Good luck
Blake
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Old 05-25-2008, 06:52 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

It took me a while to get here but I think I'm much improved. I want to show my progress with sculpting life size. I had a hard time photographing these. They look a little distorted in the photos.

She is 34" tall.

The hunks of clay under the neck are just props in case her neck seam lets go.

You can see in the last one that my seam did not hold at the neck. I am going to keep her wet until after we mold her. I cut her head open and mounted a dowel through her head and neck in case the head actually falls off. This is my first one and I learned a lot doing it. I'm almost finished with the second one.

I need help with building procedures. If I can get a good routine going as far as building, I can concentrate more on proportions and expression. I felt like I had to build so fast that I couldn't dwell anywhere for fear of the components not reattaching well. And apparently I wasn't fast enough. Anyone have any tips?

All advice is welcome. Scout
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Old 05-25-2008, 07:14 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

Scout,
I love your attention to the details of what makes a child--- wiggly toes, hair that won't stay in place, a pucker-belly, curiosity. That makes it for me.
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Old 05-25-2008, 07:24 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

Thank you grommet. I did have fun doing it. She is part of a set of two little girls showing one another their baskets. They will face each other.

I have a friend coming to show me how to mold her. Then I'm going to cast her in composite bronze. I have the second one about finished and have a boys' figure ready to begin on.

I figure it will take about a dozen children to make most of the beginner mistakes on before I go to adult size. And I'll start with a seated figure for the adult unless I feel I learned enough about building to go right to standing. Scout
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Old 05-25-2008, 07:29 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout View Post
Thank you grommet. I did have fun doing it. She is part of a set of two little girls showing one another their baskets. They will face each other.

I have a friend coming to show me how to mold her. Then I'm going to cast her in composite bronze. I have the second one about finished and have a boys' figure ready to begin on.

I figure it will take about a dozen children to make most of the beginner mistakes on before I go to adult size. And I'll start with a seated figure for the adult unless I feel I learned enough about building to go right to standing. Scout
So, after you finish all that, what are you going to do next week.
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Old 05-25-2008, 07:30 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

Yep, ditto on the above grommet comments. All those elements combine to make her look alive and in motion rather than just holding a pose.

If you are taking a mold from her rather than firing the clay, then I don't understand why you formed her with clay walls, seams, etc. instead of more solidly packed clay over an armature and filler material.
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Old 05-25-2008, 08:34 AM
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Re: One of my pieces

grommet, you're a smart aleck! Do you know any artist that is not manic?

GlennT, thanks. I have never seen anyone build something big before so I didn't know how to proceed. This one (the head) was built over a paper wad over pipe attached with a flange. I basically did this solid. After I built the "clay frame" to an approximation of her figure, I cut off the extremities one at a time. I work them over and then reattach the arm or whatever and do another and reattach. I made the mistake doing the face last. I cut off the head and did it and I decided to hollow it because I hadn't decided if I was going to fire or mold. Since I had to hurry with the head, I didn't get to spend a lot of time on it. I used an outside armature for the body. 1/2" pipe.

The second one went better. The third one I am ready to start, I will do the head and face first and then build the body and attach it after I spend some time on it. Any advice on beginning a big piece would be welcome. I'm doing a boy so I don't have the big base like I enjoyed on the girls big skirt base.

I am going to use urethane to mold it and polyester resin and bronze powder to cast it. Plasti paste for the mother mold. Scout
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