Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net  

Go Back  Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net > Sculpture Roundtable Discussions > Sculpture Community and ISC topics
User Name
Password
Home Sculpture Community Photo Gallery ISC Sculpture.org Register FAQ Members List Search New posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-13-2009, 09:21 AM
RWJR RWJR is offline
Level 9 user
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Breaux Bridge, louisiana
Posts: 264
Sec. of Arts petition

thought I'd pass this on http://www.petitiononline.com/esnyc/petition.html
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-13-2009, 10:03 AM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Why do we need yet another bloated bureaucratic trough from which to slop the pigs on capitol hill, while passing petty favors on to the loudest lobbyists?
Just because it would involve the arts?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-13-2009, 12:17 PM
Ries's Avatar
Ries Ries is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edison Washington
Posts: 1,154
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Umm- maybe because if government doesnt spend money on the arts, which benefits communities spiritually, economically, and aestheically, they will, instead, spend the money on Bridges to Nowhere, more bombers, Halliburton, and bailing out billionaires.

Government funding is not going away, just cause we dont like what they spend it on- the pigs will find their troughs.

Arts spending, on the other hand, has been proven again and again to be more bang for the buck, affecting more people, and almost universally, people who DO NOT get money from the government in any other form- ballet dancers and school children, seniors and poets.

The choice is not to spend on the arts, or not spend.
The choice is to spend money on the arts, or on other, usually worse, things.

There is hardly a dancer, poet, painter, or composer among all the lobbyists, congressmen, and aides on Capitol Hill- they wont be getting any of this money. They got plenty of bigger troughs already.
__________________
Been There.
Got in Trouble for that.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-13-2009, 02:51 PM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

So, because all those other folks are getting some undeserved pie, we should have ours too? When does it end? Do we need a federal secretary of sewing circles? Do we need a secretary of sports? We have come quite a way from the founding father's wisdom and their concept of limited government, and it is not a good way, especially in this regard: when we look to the federal government as the answer and source for all things, we disempower ourselves. We also hamstring economic growth, the effects of which we are seeing today and seems possibly headed towards beyond belief with the Raw Deal-bailouts for every poor decision- method of government intervention.
How many additional programs and added debt can taxpayers shoulder before they are working mainly to support the government, not their families?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-13-2009, 03:20 PM
grommet grommet is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,279
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

But tell us how you really feel, Glenn.. ( you have a bit of spittle on your cheek)
Understandably, it is difficult for a large entity to do everything well, so folks pass things off to people who know what they're doing. But there's so many gaps where people haven't picked up the slack/ lack of services.. You just gonna tell them sorry, nobody's interested in you, tough beans.?.. or do you recognize the need and make do with everyone pitching in a little, making the effort... many hands make light work.
There's already too many people with the "every man for himself" attitude. I don't think it's benefitted folks as much as they like to think.
__________________
Taking my own advice
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-13-2009, 04:18 PM
Ries's Avatar
Ries Ries is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edison Washington
Posts: 1,154
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Arts funding is not undeserved pie.
Arts funding pays back more than it costs, in actual tax income to local government, in jobs generated, and additional spending.

Military spending, on the other hand, is exactly what you described. And our current budget is over $500 Billion, PLUS what the wars, the "black budget", and all the intelligence services cost. Round it off to a cool Trillion a year, plus or minus.

Seems to me that we could cut a half trillion of somebody else's undeserved pie, fund the arts, and still save hundreds of billions in tax dollars.

As long as we are talking pie in the sky, here...
__________________
Been There.
Got in Trouble for that.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-13-2009, 04:39 PM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Quote:
Originally Posted by grommet View Post
But tell us how you really feel, Glenn.. ( you have a bit of spittle on your cheek)

That's not spittle, its drool left over from deep sleep.

Understandably, it is difficult for a large entity to do everything well, so folks pass things off to people who know what they're doing.

So who do you nominate for Secretary of Arts who knows what they're doing? Oprah Winfrey? Norman Mailer? Judge Judy? Or someone as unbiased as me?

But there's so many gaps where people haven't picked up the slack/ lack of services.. You just gonna tell them sorry, nobody's interested in you, tough beans.?..

My gosh, we've been at this for 230 years without a Secretary of Arts! How could all of this art have happened without a government bureaucracy in control?


or do you recognize the need and make do with everyone pitching in a little, making the effort... many hands make light work.
There's already too many people with the "every man for himself" attitude. I don't think it's benefitted folks as much as they like to think.
I'm looking forward to getting my free handout from the government, since there would obviously be no bias in determining who is worthy, nor any controls, standards, or agenda as to what art I must produce with the money.
Probably no accountablility either. Sound just about perfect!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-13-2009, 06:54 PM
Ries's Avatar
Ries Ries is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edison Washington
Posts: 1,154
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Glenn, I believe that is called the "straw man" theory of discussion- you make up a straw man, attach every possible bad thing to it, and then give it a hefty kick.

Its fun, but not in any way connected to reality.

There is no arts funding, current or proposed, that meets any of your criteria.

Free Handouts?
No Controls?
No Accountability?

Never heard of any arts funding anything like that.

Even the long gone, as in close to 20 years ago, individual grants from the NEA, required accountability, and writing a proposal and then following up on it with a final report- and, as mentioned, those have been obsolete since before either of my kids were born.

Arts funding today usually means extensive vetting by panels of knowledgeable people in the field, lots of proposals with explicit details, VERY large contracts with a lot of legalese, payments that are based on matching grants, and so on.

I often get 100 to 200 page contracts, requiring state and local business licences, $1 Million dollars of liability insurance, detailed drawings, engineering, and then constant followup by govt agencies. I have had inspectors in my studio making sure I am doing things right.

Similar restrictions apply to most any arts money recepients, be they dance troupes, school arts teaching programs, music festivals, opera, art museums, or any of the other top dollar getters of federal and state arts funds.

Nobody gets any free handouts.
Instead, there are usually underpaid administrators who could make double or triple in the private sector, running museums, festivals, and theaters because they love what they do and believe in it, cobbling together budgets from many sources, always, in my experience, a mix of public and private.
__________________
Been There.
Got in Trouble for that.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-13-2009, 08:33 PM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Ries, I was being faceitious to make my point. Grommet was sounding as though she believed that the Secretary of Arts position was going to result in handouts to needy artists who otherwise could not make it.

My point, obtuse as it may have been because I have to amuse myself somehow thinking about this nonsense, was that in fact, if such a position were created, it would be like any other government entity where it becomes its own self-sustaining fiefdom with a bottomless money supply from Joe middleclass's wallet, going to feed whatever agenda-driven cause celebre of the moment makes their shennaigans appear legitimate. The controls would be most visible in how the programs were formulated to further an agenda rather than to promote the finest and best art possible.

Example:

Calls for art: " Rappin' For Diversity" $100,000 in ten grants available for videographers, musicians, poets, and writers who want to tell the story of how rap culture has united the diverse factions of the inner city urban culture into one big fun-loving hip hop nation. Special preference given for people of color, people of stripes or plaids, people who had color but are now anemic, gender-issue identity-theft video game wizards with disabilities, and ex-mormons with control and authority issues. For prospectus, go to wnw.secretaryofthearts.us.gov.fleecey'all.org

Last edited by GlennT : 01-13-2009 at 08:36 PM. Reason: oops, I actually created an url. don't want this to gain any traction!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-13-2009, 10:17 PM
grommet grommet is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,279
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Quote:
Grommet was sounding as though she believed that the Secretary of Arts position was going to result in handouts to needy artists who otherwise could not make it.
Nothing of the sort.
However, the only point of reference i have at the moment is via friends who work for non-profits and deal with beaurocracy a lot. in other words, i have no info, but have heard a lot of crud about the struggles of trying to do good and make a difference in an avalanche of paperwork and criticism. It takes someone with vision to lead and cut through the the unnecessary bits to the heart of the matter... Some place to funnel the collective knowledge to...
Negativity such as you are displaying doesn't help the matter.
__________________
Taking my own advice
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-14-2009, 07:54 AM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

[quote=grommet;71506Negativity such as you are displaying doesn't help the matter.[/QUOTE]

It does if you look at it like this:

Creating a National Secretary of Arts cabinet position: Negative

Not doing that: Positive, or at least neutral

Otherwise, I'm not quite sure how to discuss a bad idea and give it a positive spin for the sake of sounding upbeat or supportive. What I consider helpful is thinking through consequences of an action first instead of just going through with it because it feels good. And I'm not sure how adding another layer of bureacracy to cut through the bureaucratic red tape is going to help, even if that was the intention. And I have my doubts that such would be the intention.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-14-2009, 09:31 AM
Ries's Avatar
Ries Ries is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edison Washington
Posts: 1,154
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
it would be like any other government entity where it becomes its own self-sustaining fiefdom with a bottomless money supply from Joe middleclass's wallet, going to feed whatever agenda-driven cause celebre of the moment makes their shennaigans appear legitimate.
I know this is an unpopular belief, but I happen to think that far from being what you describe, many government entities actually do a much better job than the private sector could, for LESS money.

Take, for example, social security- the actual administration of social security costs less than 1% of the funds disbursed. There is NO mutual fund or stockbroker you can find that will do what they do for anywhere near that little money.

Or the military- the US Army, Navy, and Airforce managed, for a couple hundred years, to do what Halliburton does now- feed troops, build barracks, supply troops at the front- for about a quarter of what Halliburton and other Cheney owned companies charge.

The post office gets a lot of grief- but, next time you need a letter mailed, trot over to Fed-Ex and offer them forty two cents to deliver your letter, and see how far you get...

Similarly, the government delivers education, fire protection, forestry management, police services, public health care like innoculations, and many more services, at a fraction of the cost of similar, usually lower quality, private providers.

I have seen absolutely no proof that EVERY government entity, much less a majority of them, is anything like what you describe.
I knew people, personally, who have worked for the NEA, and they sure didnt get any of the mythical powers that you suggest.

As for documenting rap- I get the feeling you scoff at it just because its rap. Have you actually seen the results of any of these grants?
Its quite possible that they may actually be funding quality art- I saw a film recently documenting the "Krump" movement of rap dancing in LA, which was a documentary called "Rize", and it was a very good film, and I wouldnt be surprised at all if some government grants helped make it- and I have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with funding things like that.

You must keep in mind, however, that 90% or more of government arts money goes to VERY conservative organisations- opera, ballet, art museums, and so on.
So you pick out the rap grants, and make fun-
But last year, the NEA funded MUCH more Chamber Music than Rap, and in the visual arts, things like Western Painter Alfred Jacob, who died in 1874, or Cezanne, or a show of Impressionism.
__________________
Been There.
Got in Trouble for that.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-14-2009, 10:23 AM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ries View Post
But last year, the NEA funded MUCH more Chamber Music than Rap
SEE, an agenda! Funding chamber music is an attempt to sound the death-knell to the appreciation of classical music by selecting the most boring type possible!


You make some points worthy of a better than flippant response but I'm in a hurry, plus I've already spoken my 2 cents plus an additional 25, and add another 6 cents for inflation.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-14-2009, 01:27 PM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Well, a governmental position for a secratary of arts seems rather silly to me, but I am in the market for a new hybrid kitten. My last one only got 3-4 meows per gallon of milk and barely a purr or two and what with milk costing twice what gas does and the obscene windfall dairy profits...

Maybe they need a hybrid kitten program first and then we can look at art and stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-14-2009, 04:48 PM
outsider outsider is offline
Level 9 user
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 265
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Some states and municipalities have grants that require no accountability other than residence. Just send them pictures and a panel picks recipients.

SBIR's are a fantastic way to encorage small business. They are military grants given for innovation. Small Bussiness Innovative Reaserch grants. The govt. will set you up in a bussiness and provide office support. Just gotta have something good and more than aesthetic.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-14-2009, 05:47 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Quote:
Originally Posted by outsider View Post
Some states and municipalities have grants that require no accountability other than residence. Just send them pictures and a panel picks recipients.

SBIR's are a fantastic way to encorage small business. They are military grants given for innovation. Small Bussiness Innovative Reaserch grants. The govt. will set you up in a bussiness and provide office support. Just gotta have something good and more than aesthetic.

Yep, I've never won That Lotto, but in Massachusetts and New Jersey, as a state resident you can fill out 1 page of bio, six images and win up to 10, grand...for your art...justified however you wish to do so. I have many friends that have won this....Its a ten minute application. A real no brainer.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-14-2009, 07:34 PM
Tired Iron's Avatar
Tired Iron Tired Iron is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: St.Lawrence River Valley
Posts: 535
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

where are the European members voices? I have heard that OUR great nation is one of the few that DOSEN"T pay artists a stipend to create art. Is this true? Does Europe hail art as an avocation that should be compensated so artists can deliver the goods? Shouldn't the USA follow this idea to spur on more artwork? Glenn you undoubtly make too much money to recieve such a stipend so don't worry about it.
__________________
Semper ubi, sub ubi!



www.tiredironsculptures.com
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-15-2009, 02:20 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 342
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

In the UK we have an Arts minister. He/she plays a very prominent role in arts funding, and can be held to account publically when the government doesn't give the arts a fair deal. No arts minister, no government accountability. It's war out there - popular culture can stand on its own two feet. The ARTS need to be spread. To take Evaldart's line, the arts can save us. We need people to be employed to further the cause, to invite interest, to manage educational projects and pay for public art. Hey, chamber music: its subtle, Glenn, not boring. Funding spreads the subtlety.
Our largest publically funded arts body is 'The Arts Council of Great Britain'. Visit the website (there may be separate bodies for England, Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland). We also have other bodies, like 'Arts East', 'Arts South-West' that channel arts funding to local commmunities, and that includes offering help to deprived communities, including the disabled. Good stuff. We're civilised, this is what we do.
__________________
The forum member formerly known as Cantab

Last edited by Portoro : 01-15-2009 at 03:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-15-2009, 03:27 AM
anatomist1 anatomist1 is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pacific NW, USA
Posts: 604
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Actually chamber music is the most interesting form of "classical music". It's stripped down, and all about the basic compositional structures. I wouldn't say it's subtle. I'd say bold, raw. Symphonies, choruses, concertos, operas... they're awash in lots of frivolous coloration, duplication of voices... basically festooned with a lot of meaningless decoration. They are only more interesting in the same way that shiny objects are more interesting than non-shiny ones. Chamber music is where the meat is.

The idea that spending a pittance on government arts funding is the triumph of evil big government is barely even an opinion. More like a clumsy attempt to impose political ideology on yet another subject without actually bothering to learn anything about it, or do anything that remotely resembles actual thinking.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-15-2009, 03:45 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 342
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Anatomist - yes, and you make the music sound really vibrant. On Saturday night my wife and I are in Cambridge UK to hear a new composition for church bells by a contemporary classical composer. He is using the bells of 5 churches in the centre of Cambridge, the idea being that the whole thing will cohere inn the minds and imaginations of the listeners in the town. This is also accompanied by a light show by a 'world renowned' light artist. All free obviously and all had to be funded (in this case by the university, I think). Funding is good.
There is also a modern art gallery in Cambridge - 'Kettles Yard' - no funding, no modern art here.
Managing a civilised culture is difficult. It's not just about building roads. Zimbabwe? - no arts minister there, naturally, since no-one in power cares and there is no-one to hold government to account. Get government TIED DOWN and committed to what we care about.
__________________
The forum member formerly known as Cantab

Last edited by Portoro : 01-15-2009 at 03:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-15-2009, 08:06 AM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Quote:
Originally Posted by anatomist1 View Post
o More like a clumsy attempt to impose political ideology on yet another subject without actually bothering to learn anything about it, or do anything that remotely resembles actual thinking.
Like when you were promoting the myth of "human-created global warming"?

P.S. Find me a piece of chamber music both as subtle and complex, weaving raw bold and ethereal together, as in the first movement of Mahler's 9th symphony. And if you think it has too many voices and colorations, please inform us of which ones to remove.

P.P.S. What is up with your psychology that makes you feel the need to mock the intelligence or thinking-skills of anyone you disagree with? Is that easier than discussing an issue? Would it make my point stronger if I concluded by saying to are an aggrievous moron? For example, on a different thread , rather than use evidence to support your position, you said my grasp of physics barely reached the highschool level, because that made you believe yourself so much smarter somehow. Whereas the actual fact is that I got an A in physics at the U. of M, had to take years of statics and dynamics in architectural school, and have designed dozens of offices and homes that gravity or poor design did not cause to tumble down. Alright, so you are a genius at oxy/acetylene welding, and you create skeletons. Does that then make you qualified to pass judgement on the intelligence of others?

Last edited by GlennT : 01-15-2009 at 08:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-15-2009, 08:55 AM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Having knowledge and appreciation for classical music does not make anyone any smarter or better than one who couldn't give a shit about it. In fact, any decent heavy metal guitarist is far more self-determined creatively than the automatons who play amongst the masses of their own chaired ilk in a concert hall. I am determined to make it through life without bothering with the "cultural" pretensions of classical music.

government in the Arts is boring...lets go off topic.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-15-2009, 09:36 AM
Duck Duck is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 384
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portoro View Post
We're civilised
You’re joking,…right???

“civilizzzzed”……..
the UK had a 6% increase in abortions for 14 yr. olds.
Last year the religious Protestants and Catholics made up for 60% of the 1.2 million abortions in this country........


civilized = having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc.
...lol
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-15-2009, 09:41 AM
Portoro Portoro is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 342
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

I agree that rock musicians will be more self-directed than musicians in orchestras. But whereas classical musicians tend to appreciate rock, I suspect that fewer rock musicians appreciate classical. The ones I know that do have done some good things – eg John Cale, formerly of The Velvet Underground. And Philip Glass, (classical minimalism) has been involved in some rock, crossing the boundary from the other side. It’s possibly good for us to open up as many neurone sequences (brain channels*) as we can. It may mean that we respond to the world with greater feeling and maybe understanding.
* Note pseudo-science here.

Duck - when I said 'we' I mean all of us guys 'n' gals. I'm Irish - hate the Brits myself...
__________________
The forum member formerly known as Cantab
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-15-2009, 09:47 AM
grommet grommet is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,279
Re: Sec. of Arts petition

Quote:
You’re joking,…right???

“civilizzzzed”……..
the UK had a 6% increase in abortions for 14 yr. olds.
Last year the religious Protestants and Catholics made up for 60% of the 1.2 million abortions in this country........


civilized = having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc.
...lol
yes, they do in fact spell things differently over there. They're backward that way.

The items you reference identify a gap in education for that particular group. Not so much to do with being civilized as to recognize reality. Your leap will land you in a puddle. If that's your goal for off-topic, go for it.

evaldart, I think I was off topic all along, just not getting anywhere...
__________________
Taking my own advice
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Sculpture Community, Sculpture.net
International Sculpture Center, Sculpture.org
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Russ RuBert