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  #1  
Old 12-09-2011, 11:36 PM
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evaldart evaldart is offline
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Flatties....sort of.

I would say that relief sculpture is at least "flattened" if not quite pressed into the damned wall. NOT the best case scenario for exploring sculptural significance. Yet as creatively curious folk here, I bet we've all addressed the idea or the challenge of plying some of our 3-d significance into the 2.5 range.

I know I have (as a reformed painter there are still bridges that have not been burned).

So let this thread be a discussion and image repository for our dimensionally challenged dalliances. I'll set things going with a recent few wall trinkets....and we'll go from there.

These are all mixed metals (copper, (poured) aluminum , steel) around 12 - 13 "
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  #2  
Old 12-10-2011, 11:46 AM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

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Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
I would say that relief sculpture is at least "flattened" if not quite pressed into the damned wall. NOT the best case scenario for exploring sculptural significance.
I almost cannot believe that a statement like this is made on a sculpture forum. Then I remember that we live in an age where words seem to have lost their meaning, or...significance.

So, as an antitode to the above quoted concept, an in lieu of the fact that I cannot currently post images or interface with any of the editing tools or icons, I invite the reader to look up "Mourning Victory" by Daniel Chester French, "The Shaw Memorial" by Augustus St. Gaudens, the Parthenon Frieze, Trajan's Column, the best of ancient Greek coinage, Renaissance medals, 19th century French art medals such as those by Dupre and Roty, The Door of Paradise by Ghibert, and what the hell...The Gates of Hell by Rodin, the Madonna Pitti by Michelangelo, Ex Nihilo by Frederick Hart, the Egyptian reliefs of Iknaton and Nerfertiti, and, I suppose, about 1/3 of the creative output of all combined sculptors during the last 4,000 years.

All of which may or may not have provided "a best case scenario" for exploring sculptural significance. It could have just been a bunch of busywork for all we seem to know!
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Old 12-10-2011, 12:03 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Well gat dammit, we finally got some action here on this board.

All great works mentioned up there Glenn, and there are great paintings out there in the world too. But there are formal issues involved in the illusion-ing of those works you mentioned that are VERY different from issues encountered in free-standing work. "Gates of Hell" is one of my favorite things too - but again you are only citing ONE small range of (traditional) "relief" work (coins, gimme a break). There is SO much more potential in imagining sculpturAL process as it might be put forth as a mostly "frontal" entity. I am being generously permissive to even INCLUDE a relief section on a SCULPTURE forum. So many of them, those reliefs, were indeed "sculpted" but so few of them address sculpture. I wonder if it is not the painters that would be more proficient (only after having unburdened themselves of color issues) at 2.5-D. You are too sensitive to the questioning of history and tradition. This is a curious matter - so be curious, yes, it might hurt...but...no pain, no gain.
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Old 12-10-2011, 12:54 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
Well gat dammit, we finally got some action here on this board.

All great works mentioned up there Glenn, and there are great paintings out there in the world too. But there are formal issues involved in the illusion-ing of those works you mentioned that are VERY different from issues encountered in free-standing work. "Gates of Hell" is one of my favorite things too - but again you are only citing ONE small range of (traditional) "relief" work (coins, gimme a break). There is SO much more potential in imagining sculpturAL process as it might be put forth as a mostly "frontal" entity. I am being generously permissive to even INCLUDE a relief section on a SCULPTURE forum. So many of them, those reliefs, were indeed "sculpted" but so few of them address sculpture. I wonder if it is not the painters that would be more proficient (only after having unburdened themselves of color issues) at 2.5-D. You are too sensitive to the questioning of history and tradition. This is a curious matter - so be curious, yes, it might hurt...but...no pain, no gain.
Okay, before foot in the mouth gives you further halitosis, regardng "coins, gimme a break" check out a Naxos tetradrachm from 460 BC. or an Akragas skylla tetradrachm from 420 BC, or an Arethusa facing head tetradrachm by Kimon from 410 BC, or the Apollo heads and lion heads of the Leontini tetradrachm series, and I could keep going.

If there is so much more potential in full round sculpture than relief, then SHOW it, because there has been very little shown here that engages me as fully as the best of what the world has offered in bas-relief.

It is not being permissive to include relief sculpture here, it is being dismissive and I would like to add ignorant, without meaning to offend, to think that it is a second-rate activity compared with anything else.

In fact, good bas-relief sculpture can be much more challenging to pull it off well. With figurative work at least, you have to have a more refined understanding of planes and their relative effect than with full round to make it function and read well.

Don't let my appreciation of "history and tradition" distract you from acknowledging that it is not the media or method, but what the artist puts into ANY work that determines its significance and value as art.

As long as you are pursuing the idea of pain and gain, how about you trying to create a credible portrait in bas relief, and see what you learn from that experience. Obviously, it is not the same as creating a 3-D work that allows for multiple viewing points. Yet, you might suprise yourself with how much significance you can get from so doing, especially if you bring the significance along with you as you work.
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  #5  
Old 12-10-2011, 01:11 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Glenn, you only give your thought over to one small area of possibility when it comes to the conundrum of significant form (and by extension, general significance). Boiled-down, there is no difference between figurative and non-objective work...and boiled even further down, there is no difference between sculpture, relief and painting. And boiled even FURTHER, there is no difference between any purely creative undertaking (Purity, being of essence).

So what we might discuss here is how the range of formal possibilities get "shared" to different degrees in works that find themselves somewhere between those kinds of creative experiences that yield 2 and 3 dimensional artifacts. I would say, first and foremost, it is an issue of reduced or even singular points of engagement as the process unfolds . Which later, as it is relevant to a viewer, would reflect a "fitted" vantange point - a more firm "best" place to look from; regardless of the silly story that might have been the subject that motivationally "funded" the effort. Minus the color aspect, how is relief different than painting?. This is less obvious than how it might be different than sculpture. Differences and samenesses are to be flip-flopped for the sake of painful thinking...for the sake of improvement...for the sake of changing. It is easy not to change, it is difficult to change well, to change significantly.

Coins, or the intention of designing and adapting idea to serve such a steadfastly functional purpose, are not art, and it is only a very diluted artistic effort that got the sculptural stuff onto one. Maybe, like many things, they are visual treats - but they are not allowed to be art.

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Old 12-10-2011, 04:15 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

you guys make my head hurt....
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2011, 05:26 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
it is not the media or method, but what the artist puts into ANY work that determines its significance and value as art.
I remember a few of past "what is art" debates where this statement was sort of agreed upon, so in the light of that this opinion presents itself as either arrogant or a surface read (which usually not the case with you E):

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
Coins, or the intention of designing and adapting idea to serve such a steadfastly functional purpose, are not art, and it is only a very diluted artistic effort that got the sculptural stuff onto one. Maybe, like many things, they are visual treats - but they are not allowed to be art.
Perhaps it's due to your aversion to things too small by your standards, so I would agree with Glenn, try it with all you've got before you label it a "diluted artistic effort". If it's the case that you did try it, then you did not try hard enough, until it "hurt". So far I find few efforts more challenging, even maddening, than sculpting a coin size portrait and bringing artistry to it.

Back to the main subject,the flatter the relief, the more it has to do with painting/drawing, though it's categorized as sculpture. Perhaps it's not helping to think of it either as painting or sculpture in this day when we "mix" media. Paintig, even sculpture (if we think of hyper realism)becomes photography, photography becomes painting (I find digital photography some of the most exciting artform today), mundane objects, fibre art-- the list goes on-- become sculpture.

How is relief different than painting? Lines, contours will be more defined for one, because there is more mass--unless you apply colour to the relief, but you did not want to discuss colour.
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Old 12-10-2011, 06:01 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

I brought this topic up because I have been doing much thinking lately about how the "wall-ish" object, that is NOT a painting, AND how the sculpted object that is not a sculpture is a very significant thing by its own right. So there is relevance to be had by us hacking and hashing-out the formalities borrowed, stolen and shared by ALL THREE things as we even still consider them different things. Point is, are there possibilities for such thought to cause change in the churn of our artistic efforts? Mightn't we try something unexpected (that ONLY happens by relenting to creative impulses that we never thought would come into out (thought) repertoire?

Perhaps I CAN indeed make a coin that widens or enrichens my ongoing string of creative episodes. In fact, it is a challenge like THAT, the re-positioning of myself and my priorities, that give challenge. How WOULD ol' E use the notion of the "coin", or the "tiny" or the shallowest of possible relief to get improved?
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Old 12-10-2011, 06:48 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Not "coin", a coin SIZED --portrait, figure, landscape or whatever else you choose to take on-- artistic endeavour. A "can" with capital letters is a can of worms.
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  #10  
Old 12-10-2011, 07:09 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

"Worms", are a good source of protein...fuel...strength...action....art.

A great earthworm song. Very smart lyrics...metaphor life, fer sure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIaiXFilglo

have we drifted off topic?
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  #11  
Old 12-10-2011, 09:37 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

When faced with a statement like a coin "is not allowed to be art", I for one am grateful that you weren't a tyrannt (as the word applied then) during the creation of coin dies in the 5th century BC. The Greeks, having no such arbitrary rules flung at them, were more used to producing art than producing coins, so they saw small circular objects as bas-relief platforms upon which to express their ARTARTARTARTARTARTART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, one way to remove the veil from your eyes regarding the difference between painting and bas-relief, is to ask you to sculpt a bas-relief using painting supplies, or to paint a picture using clay and modeling tools.

But really, you should just actually try sculpting a figurative bas-relief and you will find that it is not as easy as painting. Rather than using color to create a range of values and tones, you have to use the effect of light physically hitting gradations of changing planes in three dimensions, albeit with subtle shifts of very small increments of measurement between one plane and another.

I believe, e, that a large part of your problem is that you equate "significance" with mass. So it is difficult for you to imagine that art could be squeezed into a tiny circular object like a medal or a coin. Or an intalgio gemstone, for that matter. But that would be like calling a Sumo wrestler an extremely significant human being, and Mother Teresa a rather insignificant one. And if 3-D, full round is the be all and end all, then you should embrace architecture as the ultimate in art, as it not only has huge girth and is 3-d, but in addition it has interior space to "sculpt", positive and negative space, and what could be better than this for you....refridgerators!!! "Function"? fogettabouddit. What function does an abandoned building have? So, if function is thus removed, do we then get to call it art?

Now, getting back to coins, and I'll grant that the US mint has not produced art on coinage for decades, you should look at the best of the ancient Greek coinage and then try to do something half as nice, and when you've tried that exercise, then imagine engraving it in metal in reverse (incuse) so as to print dulpicates by placing silver or bronze in those incuse dies and striking them with a hammer to impress the metal with the design, without undercuts or other issues preventing it from working. And do this caving in metal without any electrical tools. There are other ways to work really hard without having to flail arms and legs hither and yon.

Ok, I'll stop for now since mobjack's head is hurting.
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  #12  
Old 12-10-2011, 09:57 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Here's a flatty .....Click image for larger version

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  #13  
Old 12-10-2011, 10:19 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Man, that thing is out there, loosed, set-upon us, dangerous - organicafloralistic! It didnt need the mirrors. THAT is what I"m talking about. Its place on the wall is bringing greater effectiveness to its reach and its mass. With (at least) half the spatial responsibility it is accomplishing more with less, and caused YOU, Aaron, to respect (or antagonize) different parameters than freestanding sculpture.
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:13 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

The thing about a wall sculpture is that you can't get behind it......it really is about a limited point of view. So it's an image with a little extra action.

Action is the attraction.

I've found over the years that wall pieces pay the bills.

The biggest difference between a painting and a wall sculpture is that the wall sculpture can function as an image without a frame.

Just a whole different ball game.
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:42 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Quote:
Just a whole different ball game.
My point exactly.
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Old 12-13-2011, 09:04 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Thus far we only have a few images here. Matt's framed images and my image frame.

Who's got the off the wall .....wall piece ?
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:10 AM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

I'll throw another. I'll admit to being interested in this as a ideological "bridge" between (abstract) painting and sculpture; though the boiled-down priorities would apply NO differently to representational work.

Oh, and one cant bring the natural happenstance of light or lighting into this. That is a variable that ones artifact must overcome regardless of its (variable) effects.


"Clamped" 20 x 30" mix metal
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:04 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

A new one..."Tow Away Zone", mix metals, rubber, 60 x 30 ".
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:56 AM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

In the interest of a more and more intense consideration it is perhaps necessary to put "transitional" or alternative states, "in-betweens" , in the same place as those (perceivably) resolved states. And those venturing individuals who have addressed the "relief" or the 2.5- D have applied planar formalities (as Glenn mentioned earlier) that were borrowed from both, painting AND sculpture. Here-in, the fact that the object was sculpted and not painted is only incidental. There is a "pressing" or condensing that must occur, and this is not an observable condition but an imagined one. "Illusion" is deployed alongside the material assertions that protrude, advance and poke-out. The depth achieved, which is of primary importance, is less a measurable depth and more of a sensation. One's compositional sensibility can be profoundly challenged by a focusing on these wallish hybrids - and will inevitably yield nourishing and complexity, not only to ones other art - but to ones other thinking.
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Old 12-15-2011, 09:27 AM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

here is my latest, still trying to decide on more colour and also I keep rotating it...challenging that way.

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Old 12-15-2011, 12:29 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Very nice, but of course you know I'll warn you to be careful with the color. It might push your 2.5 down to a 2.2. First trust the colors of the matter/materials that you are working with, whatever it is; the incidental-ness of it will almost always be the best thing for the form. But then, if it is COLOR that you wish to contend-with, then by all means, see if you can rectify, reconcile, replenish or REVIVE a tubercular physicality - a flushing of some hollowed cheeks. But then you must be okay with the experience of DOING becoming chromatically driven (because color is not actually "sculpt-able" despite the clever wordsmithings of some painters' artist statements). Too many times folks treat their sculptures(and reliefs) like the faces of a clown; undermining form, garish and ghastly subversion.

I like that thing exactly as it is, form AND flatness negotiated very well by TONE (not color), move on to the next, ride the momentum. Dont look for extra things to do that will only punctuate - run on, run on.
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Old 12-15-2011, 10:24 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

E, I think you're right about this particular piece, more colour might damage the sculptural effect, but sooner or later I'd like to try it as this is the closest I've ever gotten (and perhaps ever will) to abstract painting. Incidentally, the idea came from a representational piece. It's jaw-dropping how all the different media, genres interconnect, intertwine, influence, react to each other, and collectively lead you to directions unseen before.

You mentioned illusion, isn't optical illusion at the centre of it? As I see it a pure 2.5 should incorporate the core characteristics of both sculpture and painting: form, mass and depth, colour and ...umm, so many choices, what else should be included from the painting side? In the end a 2.5 is perceived/experienced as a painting from a distance, and as a sculpture from up close. That's a most unique and surprising rush of wonder. Flat AND full bodied form at the same time.
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Old 12-17-2011, 10:46 AM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

A painter is more likely to compose better within the boundaries of a picture format than a sculptor. They are quite used to being penned-in, circumnavigated, gated, corralled, sequestered...and so on. And thusly, painters have a sense about how to use and substantiate the area ABOUT and around the objects. We sculptors just call it space, or air, or nothing - but in keeping with my recent obsession about the nature of the void, I am caused to give exactly as much attention and priority to the "negative" as to the "positive" (and you may extend that metaphor out as far as it will reach).

This is why a coin cannot be art...the designer worried too much over all the damned information that had to get on there, crammed-in, at a regrettable price, against purity of aesthetic druthers; ruinous to all that precious (tiny)real-estate by ornametia, embellishing and text. I dont mind if a coin is beautiful, or a tea-cup either...they just cant be art (according to ol' E, of course).
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:12 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post

This is why a coin cannot be art...the designer worried too much over all the damned information that had to get on there, crammed-in, at a regrettable price, against purity of aesthetic druthers; ruinous to all that precious (tiny)real-estate by ornametia, embellishing and text. I dont mind if a coin is beautiful, or a tea-cup either...they just cant be art (according to ol' E, of course).
The hogwash fountain spilleth over once again! Your arbitrary rules about aesthetic purity are only a limitation in YOUR mind, and perhaps there is where the bias filter keeps art in the form of a coin from being art. You may as well decide some thing else prevents "pure aesthetics" from occuring- a rectangular canvas, for example: a fixed limit of applied space-naw, can't be any art there! Paintings...? Dismissed!

Possibly enough actual nonsense gets by your filter and is then considered art that one might suggest having your filter replaced with a new and improved model, one that is not set to limit on the basis of format, but rather on the basis of quality.
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:47 PM
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Re: Flatties....sort of.

Quote:
Possibly enough actual nonsense gets by your filter and is then considered art that one might suggest having your filter replaced with a new and improved model, one that is not set to limit on the basis of format, but rather on the basis of quality.
I know I'm not supposed to, cause of the dioxin, but I use paper towels for "filters". Because I have to change them so often; the sludge of function, gobbings of tradition, the jammings of history and and the goop of craft are constantly harnessing the flow of significance.
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