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  #151  
Old 08-05-2009, 04:30 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Nature needs only be endured, not celebrated.
does this mean I can't make 'grass angels' anymore??? (you know, like snow angels, only different)
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  #152  
Old 08-05-2009, 04:53 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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does this mean I can't make 'grass angels' anymore??? (you know, like snow angels, only different)
Thats not celebrating Nature thats celebrating yourself, proper defiance...which is fine.
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  #153  
Old 08-05-2009, 05:28 PM
rika rika is offline
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

It all boils down to this simple and straightforward quote for me:

“He who works with his hands is a labourer.
He who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman.
He who works with his hands, his head and his heart is an artist.”

Francis of Assisi

No beating around the bush. Just ask yourself "is my heart still in it?". If the answer is yes, you're an artist.
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  #154  
Old 08-05-2009, 05:43 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Originally Posted by rika View Post
It all boils down to this simple and straightforward quote for me:

He who works with his hands, his head and his heart is an artist.”
but how does the viewer know that the artist did put their heart into it?
art can be anything thats made by human or natural hands.

grannies put their hearts into sewing,does that make it great art?
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  #155  
Old 08-05-2009, 07:32 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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1 Nature needs only be endured, not celebrated. So we dont actually need to know too much about nature. Keep it from killing you and do your Art IN SPITE of it (because Nature doesnt want you to do Art...it wants you to plow fields, cut trees, build skyscrapers and try to make it to Mars).

2 Everything mechanical is done with skill and planning.

3 Artists of the past and Gods (the lot) should have no influence DURING the creative episode. In fact, they'll likely lead you down the wrong path...and too many wrong paths branching out will have you hopelessly lost. Only a trail of hamburger left behind will save you...if Nature hasnt had it already eaten.

Different strokes, I suppose.
Nature wants you to plow fields, cut trees, bulild skyscrapers and try to make it to mars? If this is your understanding of nature than you're hopeless.

Everything mechanical is done with skill and planning? Yah like when a car crashes into a tree.

Artists of the past should have no influance during the creative process?
Actually I'm not surprised by that statement.

Last edited by SPRINGFIELD : 08-05-2009 at 09:05 PM.
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  #156  
Old 08-05-2009, 09:09 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

"Hopeless"? well, I guess that depends upon what everyone is hoping for. Not my problem.

In fact I expect that most of the the things called Art throughout history weren't actually anything of the sort. I do indeed cherish some of those greater efforts ...but dont doubt that I could out-do them if I cared to. But I cant be bothered with all that. I've got metal to mangle, natural laws to overpower and space to fill...and all that aint easy.
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  #157  
Old 08-05-2009, 09:40 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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"Hopeless"? well, I guess that depends upon what everyone is hoping for. Not my problem.

In fact I expect that most of the the things called Art throughout history weren't actually anything of the sort. I do indeed cherish some of those greater efforts ...but dont doubt that I could out-do them if I cared to. But I cant be bothered with all that. I've got metal to mangle, natural laws to overpower and space to fill...and all that aint easy.
I don't doubt that I could out-do them if I cared to? What an empty boast.
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  #158  
Old 08-05-2009, 10:07 PM
Tlouis Tlouis is offline
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

If he means out-doing Praxiteles, Bernini, Michelangelo, Rodin, it's not an empty boast, it's laced with arrogance.
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  #159  
Old 08-05-2009, 10:34 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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If he means out-doing Praxiteles, Bernini, Michelangelo, Rodin, it's not an empty boast, it's laced with arrogance.
Thanks Tlouis I needed to hear that from somebody.
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  #160  
Old 08-05-2009, 11:35 PM
rika rika is offline
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Originally Posted by craigktx View Post
but how does the viewer know that the artist did put their heart into it?
art can be anything thats made by human or natural hands.

grannies put their hearts into sewing,does that make it great art?
Empathy? Sixth sense? Who knows, but we do respond to art that has all three ingredients in it.

Yes, grannie's sewing could be art, but then she would be a fashion designer somewhere in the fashion capitals of the world. Heart alone will not make her pretty dress made for her granddaughter art.

Art can be made of anything, but so can craft. It's the handling of the material that makes it art. I saw a good example the other day. Wood turning. I've seen plenty of well made, functional pieces. But then I came across of a woodturning artist. It was obvious that functionality was secondary to him, it was all about surprising forms and surfaces.

But what is your take on the subject, Craig? You do both by your own admission. What is the difference?
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  #161  
Old 08-05-2009, 11:49 PM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Originally Posted by rika View Post
Empathy? Sixth sense? Who knows, but we do respond to art that has all three ingredients in it

But what is your take on the subject, Craig? You do both by your own admission. What is the difference?
one is planned from the start. (craft)
the other is from just what comes out.(art)
if you learn it, it falls under craftsmanship,if you let it fly then
its art.
iam not saying its good art but its on a higher level.

it would be nice to have starving peasants that could do the dirty work.
i have made to many mermaids.
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  #162  
Old 08-06-2009, 08:01 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Originally Posted by craigktx View Post
one is planned from the start. (craft)
the other is from just what comes out.(art)
if you learn it, it falls under craftsmanship,if you let it fly then
its art.
That description may work for the mindset of our current upsidedown age. By either of those two definitions, almost all art created before the 20th century be considered craftsmanship, with the possible exception of some primitive works, and even there it is not certain if it was learned or planned.
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  #163  
Old 08-06-2009, 08:56 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Originally Posted by craigktx View Post
but how does the viewer know that the artist did put their heart into it?
It doesn't matter what the viewer knows or supposes.

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Originally Posted by craigktx View Post
art can be anything thats made by human or natural hands.
Correct.


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Originally Posted by craigktx View Post
grannies put their hearts into sewing,does that make it great art?
Totally subjective. I see a lot of so-called great art, labeled as such by galleries, collectors, academics and the like, and frankly an overabundance appears to me to be utter trash. But again, this is just one asshole's opinion.

There is a reactive jerking of the knee whenever "craft" seems to be the label for something too representational, or created by an amateur. Silly and presumptuous. My wife and I were at an antique auction a couple weeks ago, and a needlepoint sampler, created by a teenage girl in 1820 or so, sold for $42,500. Tack on the 15% buyer's premium and tax and the guy who won it laid out roughly $50,000 for a chatchki which according to some people may or may not be art- as though that label even matters.
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  #164  
Old 08-06-2009, 09:41 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

Yeah, obsession and competition do strange things to people. Herd mentality. It's enough to make you get to higher ground & get a bowl of popcorn.

Regardless of planning, artists tweak as their eyes tell them to, maquette be damned.
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  #165  
Old 08-06-2009, 09:59 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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There is a reactive jerking of the knee whenever "craft" seems to be the label for something too representational, or created by an amateur. Silly and presumptuous. My wife and I were at an antique auction a couple weeks ago, and a needlepoint sampler, created by a teenage girl in 1820 or so, sold for $42,500. Tack on the 15% buyer's premium and tax and the guy who won it laid out roughly $50,000 for a chatchki which according to some people may or may not be art- as though that label even matters.
It would be very informative to talk to the buyer. 50k is a serious commitment.
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  #166  
Old 08-06-2009, 10:01 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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If he means out-doing Praxiteles, Bernini, Michelangelo, Rodin, it's not an empty boast, it's laced with arrogance.
There's an interpretation there I see with no arrogance at all and in fact the opposite could be read in to it quite easily. Set aside for a moment any bias or heierarchical predispositions in terms of where you rank the "masters" and take an objective look at what he is talking about.. The idea that just because so and so made this or that, it suddenly becomes elevated to a "masterpiece" is in my mind a flawed judgement. I agree with him that much of what is passed off as Art is in fact not art at all and he was not the one to introduce Bernini or Michelangelo and even if he did, I'd argue that both of them made their fair amount of junk too..


Not arrogance,, No more arrogant than me saying Jimi Hendrix wasn't the best guitar player who ever lived by any stretch of the imagination and that he made some crap ass music too. Some people would burn me at the stake for it though even after I played Augustin Barrios for them..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmUShxEFldA

Hendrix sucks compared to this guy..
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  #167  
Old 08-06-2009, 10:05 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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It would be very informative to talk to the buyer. 50k is a serious commitment.
You ain't kidding, Joe. This was actually our first venture to this particular auction house, but it won't be our last as I plan to "get to know" the patrons who inhabit the venue and lay out this kind of dough.
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  #168  
Old 08-06-2009, 10:39 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

You mean for 'networking', or like a friendly parasite?
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  #169  
Old 08-06-2009, 10:49 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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You mean for 'networking', or like a friendly parasite?
Neither. Its a search for confirmation of what is really going on and the strangeness of the world.
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  #170  
Old 08-06-2009, 11:23 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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You mean for 'networking', or like a friendly parasite?
Is there really a difference?

Perception, like art, like assholes, all in the eye of the beholder.
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  #171  
Old 08-06-2009, 11:29 AM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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There's an interpretation there I see with no arrogance at all and in fact the opposite could be read in to it quite easily. Set aside for a moment any bias or heierarchical predispositions in terms of where you rank the "masters" and take an objective look at what he is talking about.. The idea that just because so and so made this or that, it suddenly becomes elevated to a "masterpiece" is in my mind a flawed judgement. I agree with him that much of what is passed off as Art is in fact not art at all and he was not the one to introduce Bernini or Michelangelo and even if he did, I'd argue that both of them made their fair amount of junk too..


Not arrogance,, No more arrogant than me saying Jimi Hendrix wasn't the best guitar player who ever lived by any stretch of the imagination and that he made some crap ass music too. Some people would burn me at the stake for it though even after I played Augustin Barrios for them..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmUShxEFldA

Hendrix sucks compared to this guy..
What a load. Thank you though for illustrating how some modern art is sold to witless wealthy customers.

Even if I was to agree with you that Michelangelo and Bernini made their fair share of junk. {which I don't] At least they didn't start out with the idea of creating junk.
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  #172  
Old 08-06-2009, 11:51 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Neither. Its a search for confirmation of what is really going on and the strangeness of the world.
So kinda like animals at the zoo...
ya always gotta wonder which side of the bars you're really on.
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  #173  
Old 08-06-2009, 11:53 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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Even if I was to agree with you that Michelangelo and Bernini made their fair share of junk. {which I don't] At least they didn't start out with the idea of creating junk.
No of course not, no more than Keats or Byron had in mind to write a Stephen King novel.. Yet each of them was fully-aware that romantic poetry, as great as it was had an "expiration date" in terms of cultural popularity and relevance and each one scrambled to "immortalize" themselves by scribbling as fast as they possibly could.. They knew their time was coming and they had a motive aside from writing great poetry for the sake of great poetry. This is the angle at which Matt is alluding to I believe. For them it was no big deal, they were trained and educated to do it and the time was ripe because it hadn't been done. It would be absurd for anyone today to imitate (even use the same kind of language) Keats or Byron just like it would be absurd for anyone to mimick Bernini or Michelangelo.. BTW, this has nothing to do with any supposed 'charlatans" passing off junk as Art, that is an entirely different concept.
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  #174  
Old 08-06-2009, 11:57 AM
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

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No more arrogant than me saying Jimi Hendrix wasn't the best guitar player who ever lived by any stretch of the imagination and that he made some crap ass music too. Some people would burn me at the stake for it though even after I played Augustin Barrios for them.
.
Not arrogance. That would be a personal conclusion. I having heard most of the classical greats from Segovia, Bream, Williams, Parkening, live, and Hendrix too, come to a different personal conclusion. I feel that you just haven't really "heard " Hendrix. Like wise I heard Manitas de Plata and would rate him and Hendrix as the best. For me, someone who can improvise music to spontaneously transmit their feelings wins. Classical guitar is great, but when that technical skill can be used to create huge new creative music, music that inspires others to innovate, that ability trumps all.
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  #175  
Old 08-06-2009, 12:35 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Difference between Art and Craft - A Craftsman's Take

What Joe said...
Why would you aspire to be Bernini when bernini's been done, by Bernini? After that, it's just info/tools in the belt. You can respect the contributution without having to be a drooling idiot, fawning at their feet.

If you aspire to be Bernini, then you are a craftsman.
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