Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net  

Go Back  Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net > Community Announcements > Polls
User Name
Password
Home Sculpture Community Photo Gallery ISC Sculpture.org Register FAQ Members List Search New posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-04-2009, 03:51 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BURBANK CALIFORNIA
Posts: 731
ORDER OR CHAOS

I have been vewing and participating in threads on this forum. I found certain disagreements about art and thought a question might shed some understanding on these differences[at least for me if for nowone else.]
So I would appreciate it if some of the sculptors on this forum would please answer this simple question;

Do you believe that the universe is based PRIMARILY on ORDER or CHAOS.

So far on a different thread I have one vote for Order and two undicides.

Thanks in advance for anyone who indulges my curiosity.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-04-2009, 04:11 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

As explained in detail in an other post, the replies YOU categorize as undecided are definitely not undecided. Your poll, since it distorts and wrongfully represents our answers is useless and not valid . Before proceeding further it would be helpful to explain the intent of this poll. How will the outcome relate to art or sculpture?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-04-2009, 04:34 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BURBANK CALIFORNIA
Posts: 731
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
As explained in detail in an other post, the replies YOU categorize as undecided are definitely not undecided. Your poll, since it distorts and wrongfully represents our answers is useless and not valid . Before proceeding further it would be helpful to explain the intent of this poll. How will the outcome relate to art or sculpture?
I would kind of like to get the votes and than let everyone else come to their own conclusion. I plan on making no conclusions myself although it might help in understanding things a little.
Within the scope of the poll the answer must be Order or Chaos all else is unresponsive and therefore I interpret it as undecided.
What's the problem with picking out between Order or CHAOS as your best guess as to whats going on Primarily?

Last edited by SPRINGFIELD : 12-04-2009 at 04:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-04-2009, 04:35 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
As explained in detail in an other post, the replies YOU categorize as undecided are definitely not undecided. Your poll, since it distorts and wrongfully represents our answers is useless and not valid . Before proceeding further it would be helpful to explain the intent of this poll. How will the outcome relate to art or sculpture?
Exactly...in fact, my response could not be delivered more DECIDEDLY.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-04-2009, 04:54 PM
mantrid's Avatar
mantrid mantrid is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Wales
Posts: 590
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
As explained in detail in an other post, the replies YOU categorize as undecided are definitely not undecided. Your poll, since it distorts and wrongfully represents our answers is useless and not valid . Before proceeding further it would be helpful to explain the intent of this poll. How will the outcome relate to art or sculpture?

Hasnt it been show scientifically that if left everything goes to chaos, from the state of your fridge to the whole universe.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-04-2009, 05:01 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BURBANK CALIFORNIA
Posts: 731
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantrid View Post
Hasnt it been show scientifically that if left everything goes to chaos, from the state of your fridge to the whole universe.
Thanks mantrid. Looks like finally a vote for CHAOS.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-04-2009, 05:31 PM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Cycles, seasons, growth from seed to tree, planets rotating and hurling through space in known orbits, sunrise and sunset, Pi, harmonics, the golden ratio, gravitational attraction, magnetic poles, galaxies held together...these speak of order.

When Democrats run things...chaos is more evident.

I'm still voting for order.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-04-2009, 05:44 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Be careful or you'll only exist halfway. Fixing a hopelessly distant gaze up and out like that will put a crick in your neck and all kinds of silly thoughts in your head. Poor Galileo, poor Newton, poor Einstein, poor Hawking - all only ever wrapped their bulging brains HALFWAY around "experience". Their consumption for the farthest of fetchedness ended up devouring them. Yes, quite eaten...by answer-grubbing half wits looking for any excuse to shy from the labors of authenticity. Dont rot in that kind of wonder...because there is wonder available for the squeezing, aplenty. Wring THAT out til it soaks your sneakers. Then, they'll all hear your squishing strides from blocks away - YOU, the affector, threatening a debacle and promising them nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-04-2009, 09:14 PM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Thanks for a stream of consciousness that brooks no interference from water over the dam.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-04-2009, 09:20 PM
craigktx's Avatar
craigktx craigktx is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Port Aransas tx
Posts: 1,153
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

The universe is in order it's the viewer that causes the Chaos.
We go round and round whether we chose to or not.

Chaos is more fun tho.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-05-2009, 12:19 AM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BURBANK CALIFORNIA
Posts: 731
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigktx View Post
The universe is in order it's the viewer that causes the Chaos.
We go round and round whether we chose to or not.

Chaos is more fun tho.
Thanks craiktx- I was sure I would get a definitive answer from you. Thanks again.
At the risk of offending so far I've got

3 undecided

2 for ORDER

1 for CHAOS

Some votes are from the other thread. Thanks everyone.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-05-2009, 01:33 AM
Lady Fingers's Avatar
Lady Fingers Lady Fingers is offline
Level 6 user
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 126
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Chaos is order we don't understand, or cannot appreciate - there is sumblime order to the growth of bacteria and mould in that unkept fridge.
The more we learn the more the unknown becomes apparent.
That's why, my vote is BOTH (not undecided)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-05-2009, 02:06 AM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BURBANK CALIFORNIA
Posts: 731
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fingers View Post
Chaos is order we don't understand, or cannot appreciate - there is sumblime order to the growth of bacteria and mould in that unkept fridge.
The more we learn the more the unknown becomes apparent.
That's why, my vote is BOTH (not undecided)
Perhaps it would help to understand that I'm asking for a vote based on choosing whiich you feel is the most predominant in the universe ORDER or CHAOS. Since the two concepts are complete oposites seems to me people should have at least a hunch one way or the other. Therefore making a decision and voting one way or the other should'nt be too difficult.

From what you said it sounds like you believe that ORDER predominates even though we don't always see it. So I'm going to put you down as a vote for ORDER.
Let me know if you would like to change that.I don't see anything wrong with being undecided. Would everyone feel better if I changed the undecided vote to a "this is BS vote"?

3 undecided {or this is BS}

3 ORDER

1 CHAOS

Last edited by SPRINGFIELD : 12-05-2009 at 02:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-05-2009, 05:57 AM
mantrid's Avatar
mantrid mantrid is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Wales
Posts: 590
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
Cycles, seasons, growth from seed to tree, planets rotating and hurling through space in known orbits, sunrise and sunset, Pi, harmonics, the golden ratio, gravitational attraction, magnetic poles, galaxies held together...these speak of order.

When Democrats run things...chaos is more evident.

I'm still voting for order.

Life is a battle against chaos eventually it dies over the short term over the long term it becomes extinct, orbits decay and break down. Stars expolde, gallaxies spin apart or crash into each other. Gravity is the big destroyer it pulls things together destroying what was there. The things you mention are temporary eventually chaos wins the battle. But life, stars, gallaxies and the universe (maybe) are reborn to go through the cycle again with chaos winning out each time.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-05-2009, 09:27 AM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantrid View Post
But life, stars, gallaxies and the universe (maybe) are reborn to go through the cycle again with chaos winning out each time.
Tough day at the office?

This may be in part a glass half empty or half full type of thing.

When winter comes, trees seem to die or go dormant, much of the wildlife has fled or gone silent, it seems that the woods have mostly died ( your chaos element ). Yet spring comes and life ( order) is restored. So with stars and galaxies, but the life and disintegration cycles are so much more vast in duration. But we understand that energy is not destroyed, but is transformed.

What you have called chaos, as disintegration, is merely part of the larger picture of the order of the universe.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-05-2009, 08:44 PM
Ries's Avatar
Ries Ries is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edison Washington
Posts: 1,154
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

chaos is, without a doubt, the natural order of the universe.

I vote for chaos.
or KAOS.
or KO's
__________________
Been There.
Got in Trouble for that.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-05-2009, 09:01 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS



Indeed Ries...the real thing
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-05-2009, 09:42 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BURBANK CALIFORNIA
Posts: 731
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Thanks guys I'm still keeping score-the new vote total is;

2 undecided

3 ORDER

3 CHAOS

Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-05-2009, 10:36 PM
Nelson Nelson is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: venezuela
Posts: 836
Talking Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

It`s a great topic. Let`s imagine some mega star for some physics reason after generating so much energy, finally blows up releasing great amounts of mass and energy. Huge and tiny fragments are fired into space at nearly the speed of light, and one big enough piece happened to hit the sun, our sun.Once the sun is hit by the bigger asteroid, within hours the planet earth`d start to cool down, no daylight, and before we know it`d turn into an ice ball. Not to mentioned changes of trayectory due to disrupted gravitational relations in the solar system. Perhaps, the most probable event after such crash, would be that most planets including the earth, would litearlly sublimate, that is all would go from solid to gas, due to the unbelievable temperature and nuclear radiation, but in any case a total chaos from our human race point of view. Nevertheless, the events that triggered this hipothetical chaos,are simply a chain of reactions that follow physics in the cosmos. All follow the law of cause and reaction. The same cause under equal conditions yields a predictable reaction, not any reaction, that would be an out of order response, and there`s no such by chance type of events in nature. So I view chaos as a term man has coined to described an undesireable situation. Even the "chaotic" studio of any of us, is within an order of events that could take place whether we like`em or not. No sweeping, everything on the ground, etc. Let`s not be surprised if one trips over some crap and have an accident, or mice and other critters find a nice environment to thrive. Again, undesireable situations that we call chaotic. From Nature`s point of view, there`s neither creating nor destroying, simply transformation. And in all transformations, again universal laws define the outcomes. The miracle of life follows genetic codes, and mutations may appear chaotic, but are part of the evolution game. All in the universe sooner or later tends to equilibrium, and that`s order! Simple matters like putting water on one side of a permeable membrane,and a solution on the other side, will at a molecular level move to have the same concentration on both sides. That`s equilibrium and order. Within a given order, there are transformation processes, but not chaos, for it is just a word. There are no laws of chaos (not Murphy`s please), the so call chaos follows no patterns, therefore laws and patterns define order. What is not order, is simply instances, wherein changes,events take place and matter or energy is transformed. So I`d conclude that order in the universe is not predominant, it is total. The only chaotic matter here is us, men! and women too

Last edited by Nelson : 12-05-2009 at 11:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-05-2009, 11:49 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BURBANK CALIFORNIA
Posts: 731
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

WOW Nelson a great post. At first I was'nt sure that I would read all that you wrote. Now I'm glad I did. Another definate vote for ORDER. Thanks.

2 undecided

4 ORDER

3 CHAOS

Last edited by SPRINGFIELD : 12-06-2009 at 12:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-06-2009, 04:38 AM
tonofelephant's Avatar
tonofelephant tonofelephant is offline
ISC Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Martinsburg, WV
Posts: 724
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

I completely agree with Nelson with one small caveat.
Quote:
So I`d conclude that order in the universe is not predominant, it is total. The only chaotic matter here is us, men! and women too
The caveat is that within Nelson's world the men & women that form the chaotic matter believe that they themselves are the order everything else external to themselves is chaos. A case of circular logic.

I come down squarely for order. It is order we as humans cannot fathom but order is taken for granted on a molecular level.

Carl
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-06-2009, 09:15 AM
grommet grommet is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,279
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonofelephant View Post

The caveat is that within Nelson's world the men & women that form the chaotic matter believe that they themselves are the order everything else external to themselves is chaos. A case of circular logic.

Carl
is that to suggest that the only order is a "natural" order?
__________________
Taking my own advice
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-06-2009, 10:03 AM
WillPaq's Avatar
WillPaq WillPaq is offline
Level 8 user
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 208
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

There is order. We cannot, nor will we ever fully understand, only so far as we now understand our diminutive place within the universe. But even that is a paltry childlike understanding.

I find it hard to believe that we are mere slugs though, just a hitch of DNA beyond the beasts. I don't buy that. The real reason for that is our vocations. ART is not a byproduct of evolution, it is rather, at once a useless and absolute necessity to life; the ultimate duality. I don't think we are just passing time or playing games(at least not all of us), rather in seeking to understand our place in the order, we create, like little gods and we share our souls, our humanity, with the rest of the sheep.

Math is order, and with the proper equations we can gain a pittance of understanding of the planets. Hell, John Carpenter used it with subatomic science to portray a rather convincing fictional reasoning for God in PRINCE OF DARKNESS.

Order is omnipotent, whether we perceive it or not.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-06-2009, 10:48 AM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Again...language fails us where thinking actually has a chance. Language needs thinking but thinking doesnt need language.

"Order" is so obvious that its stupid...quite unaware. It would occur to the dopiest of dopes to feel the need to "make" it. It is merely a servicable condition, it is EVERY-BLEEPING-WHERE. And "chaos" is merely that SAME damned condition (becuse there is only ONE state of affairs). Its the SAME condition conveniently languaged differently by lazy thinking when it is challenged by dissonance, unpredictability, foiled curiosity and disagreeable possibilities.

So you see, the whole argument is of no consequence at all. Niether exist outside of the the tongue twisting it takes to blurt them out. It is just the same as reading Ironmans post (up there) over and over again. When wonder does not eventually manifest itself as a physical beholding it is merely musing. And musing is half real - and our continued development depends upon concerning ourselves, in the best of our moments, with the FULLEST possibilities of reality.

In lesser moments, which are the staple, go ahead and count the stars...or dream of rotund Whoppers leaping through golden fields of french fries. Same degree of worthwhile.

Last edited by evaldart : 12-06-2009 at 11:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-06-2009, 11:03 AM
Nelson Nelson is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: venezuela
Posts: 836
Re: ORDER OR CHAOS

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonofelephant View Post
I completely agree with Nelson with one small caveat.


The caveat is that within Nelson's world the men & women that form the chaotic matter believe that they themselves are the order everything else external to themselves is chaos. A case of circular logic.

I come down squarely for order. It is order we as humans cannot fathom but order is taken for granted on a molecular level.

Carl
I also agree with you with another small caveat:
If you agree practically entirely with me, then you ought to say the world, in liu of Nelson`s world, don`t you think? And the reason I mentioned men and women as being the source of chaos, was more on a sarcastic vein, realizing that no matter how irrational and "chaotic" our conduct is, the cosmic order will exert it`s means to achieve balance and order. Can get tricky as chaos can reach equilibrium (balance?) as chances are messy systems just get messier, unless there`s energy input to achieve order, and that does not come from within a chaotic system. There`s got to be external forces from other interrelated systems to lower the level of entropy towards order. Curiously, and beyond matters man will never have control of, chaos in "our" world is a matter we could reverse only controling the mighty EGO. Ain`t this what evolution is all about?: an order-chaos cycle where our potential is continuosly reasessed. Relation with art: to me art is ordering, putting into balance inner felings, requires work, effort,etc. Chaos feeds and expands as an exotermic reaction, generating heat... it ain`t COOL
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Sculpture Community, Sculpture.net
International Sculpture Center, Sculpture.org
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Russ RuBert