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  #26  
Old 08-07-2008, 04:47 PM
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cheesepaws cheesepaws is offline
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giotto View Post
He went through this personal crises until he extracted everything alien from his work and became his own artist.
What does this mean? Does being one's "own artist" mean rejecting everything that we "acquire" from shared experiences? If so, how is that possible? I am sure I missed your point. That second beer just kicked in - me slow. Can you spell this out for me?
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  #27  
Old 08-07-2008, 05:28 PM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

It's so easy to get lost in definitions and I'm not sure if I really have a point.

I just think there is a type of art...call it fine or slow or whatever...where the artist is a unique channel into reality..the results are spiritual in nature..there can be no rejecting of shared experiences because they are us...What Klimpt meant (I think)_ was that his work was indeed from and only from him, not from him and a few other guys.......just as the work you posted, Dear Cheesepaws, is from you and is unique.
G
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  #28  
Old 08-07-2008, 05:50 PM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

I'm gettin all excited about the group art myself, thinkin back to rome and all the uninhibited fun those guys had and the 60's and free love and all that (I am roughly 6 or 7% hippy after all)..

Bring on the grapes and wave those palm leaves over me and get plenty of naked super-models to sculpt.

CheeseW will suffice, I'm not greedy. It's all about the experience, the doing, who really cares what anybody see's after that?
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  #29  
Old 08-07-2008, 06:13 PM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

I love Klimpt, and I I am delighted to be able to participate in just one percent of whatever he took for himself from the making of his own work. The same is true for all the best stuff, as a rule. The artist best empowers his viewers by taking maximum benefits for himself. As soon as the anonymous "other", who might take a 2 1/2 second glance at the work (or even BUY it and take many 2 1/2 second glances), gets into the maker's head the piece is ruined. Ruined because it did not become a rung, or a stone or a step. So while its fabulousness may have survived, the stomach-knotting wonder and awe never happened. For anyone.

When I connect with a work like that I am stopped dead in my tracks and I am lost in the mapping of that piece coming to be. I am allowed a portion of the leftovers, the overspill, and the emanations of this excess from a work of art IS the thing it gives to the viewer - what else do you want? moal direction, political encouragement, answers to the questions of oblivion...it aint never gonna be there... Rothko ate all the fried chicken, you cant even have the bones, but the grease...thats some wonderful grease.
Thank God I'm an artist myself and I have the priveledge of cooking-up the occasional heaping helping, all for me, fresh from the pan.
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  #30  
Old 08-07-2008, 07:18 PM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

Sometimes I'm right there with you, and other times I have no idea where you're coming from , such as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
As soon as the anonymous "other", who might take a 2 1/2 second glance at the work (or even BUY it and take many 2 1/2 second glances), gets into the maker's head the piece is ruined. Ruined because it did not become a rung, or a stone or a step. So while its fabulousness may have survived, the stomach-knotting wonder and awe never happened. For anyone.
Are you saying that an artist's ego is too fragile to endure the exposure to a thought outside of themselves?

Or are you saying that no one but the artist who made a work of art is capable of appreciating it?

Or are you saying that snog fromp gleppers nixshnuggy?

What?what?what?
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  #31  
Old 08-07-2008, 07:40 PM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

Eval, you are SUCH a romantic.
And I mean that in the Charles Bukowski way, not the Bridges of Madison County way.

But all of what you say, even if it is 100% true inside your own head, is not necessarily true once we venture outside of that sacred realm.
Maybe once we get out, we can think more clearly, as the beer fumes in there are kind of overpowering...

Anyway, I would advance, as a great counterexample, my friends the Art Guys. They have been collaborating for nigh on 25 years now, and they spend much more than 2 1/2 seconds considering each others ideas- in fact, they can finish each other's sentances. Their collaborative work, by their own standards, is BETTER than their previous, individual work.
http://www.theartguys.com/
Now, admittedly, their style of art does not fit into your macho, bang your head against the world template- but I know them, and I can assure you they are a lot like you in many ways, and you would thoroughly enjoy a beer with them- they IZ real artists.

Another example of a real art collaboration I know of was Ed Kienholz and Nancy Reddin Kienholz- believe me, she was not just a pretty face who got her name on the wall tag because Ed liked her- she can weld, nail, paint, drink, fight, or bullshit you, me, or anybody else under the table, and she participated 100% in the conception and fabrication of all the work they did together.

If you are open to the idea of collaboration, and are willing to beat back your own ego enough to actually listen and work with the other artist, greater, not lesser, results can occur. I know several other artist teams who consistently make real art, together. Synergy man- its not just a drink in the health food section.
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  #32  
Old 08-07-2008, 08:03 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

Quote:
http://www.theartguys.com/
Now, admittedly, their style of art does not fit into your macho, bang your head against the world template- but I know them, and I can assure you they are a lot like you in many ways, and you would thoroughly enjoy a beer with them- they IZ real artists.
That definitely fulfilled my folly craving, thanks! Now that's what I'm talkin' about... plays well with others. Some o' y'all need a kindergarten refresher.

Matt, you think a stray thought of another person will distill your energy and delay you from your goals. Where you goin' in such a hurry? Maybe that moment's detour was the lesson you needed to reach the next level.
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  #33  
Old 08-07-2008, 11:32 PM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

Ries, I like your post, but think it's too easy to dismiss it as "ego". Some people like to play in a band and are great that way and others like Segovia are the band. There was no ego involved, he just didn't need or want anyone else and that's great.

Tough thing about collaboration is, there's a lot more musicians with similar styles and tastes then there are sculptors. If I knew another sculptor in my neighborhood I would do some work with them, even if it was just for camaraderie's sake.

Joe, it's interesting how you picked up on two underlying currents here, very astute way of looking at it.

Oh, I have a big print of The Kiss in my bedroom, gotta love Gustov..
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  #34  
Old 08-07-2008, 11:36 PM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

Yeah Ries, I know Mickael and Jack from the houston scene in the eighties. We walked in many of the same circles ...but I was a mere painter then, a child, only beginning to understand the power of REAL Art. Yeah, they're real funny and clever dudes...damn sure made something of themselves didn'they - you must have seen their Tacoma show...hah, they indeed turn every venue into a museum of them. Their theatre even yields some very nice and unusual objects - as hardcore sculpture goes, But you think they're good beer drinkers? maybe where you live....even collaberating they'd add up to a lightweight by Texas standards. You can't act that. But maybe they got better at it.

And I'll have you know that I reserve the head-banging for WORTHY rock n roll, and the occasional H-beam (if both fists are otherwise occupied with a cold one).

All the poor collaberators, as individuals, are missing some very unique rewards. They are the masses or Everyman, in their microcosm of two, they are the "other half" or the co-dependent. All that "sharing" and togetherness... Sorry, not for me. When its GO-time, I dont want to see another meat-spaz anywhere in my periphery.

Last edited by evaldart : 08-07-2008 at 11:48 PM.
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  #35  
Old 08-08-2008, 12:21 AM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

great topic! As far as collaboration goes; I has been one of the most difficult things for me to experiment with (must be my own self-centered/self-righteous
ideas) but when it works it is GREAT!! I was told in Art school that in today's age, the idea of doing everything on your own is over. We must learn to collaborate and that artists tend to not want to.
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  #36  
Old 08-08-2008, 12:31 AM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

Rise, I forgot to say I liked the artguys. I am through saying "its not my style" about anything. that is still placing me as the reference point/focal etc. I say, if its good its good. whether i would a work like it or not is irrelevant ?? am I wrong? I like to be corrected.
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  #37  
Old 08-08-2008, 12:46 AM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

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I like to be corrected.
I didn't spend much time looking, but I felt like I was in a coastal tourist trap.
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  #38  
Old 08-08-2008, 01:55 AM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

Collaboration seems like an illusion, like everything else. A team effort is only as good as the individual efforts of the team players. Collaboration is just taking turns or working as individuals side by side. Any way you look at it, an artist must take total responsibility for their own actions in the present. There really is no other way. Yes, dialogs happen but no one can opperate your hands but you.

One artist per body.
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  #39  
Old 08-08-2008, 06:51 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Aaron Schroeder View Post
Collaboration seems like an illusion, like everything else. A team effort is only as good as the individual efforts of the team players. Collaboration is just taking turns or working as individuals side by side. Any way you look at it, an artist must take total responsibility for their own actions in the present. There really is no other way. Yes, dialogs happen but no one can opperate your hands but you.

One artist per body.
Seems like you're ready for a collaboration because of your understanding of your own responsibilities. Now all you need is someone else with an equal sense of responsibility whose conversation & art you appreciate but that has a slightly different vantagepoint on the world.
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  #40  
Old 08-08-2008, 07:14 AM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

Quote:
Sorry, not for me. When its GO-time, I dont want to see another meat-spaz anywhere in my periphery.
Evaldart, you afraid you'll go Hulk all over someone?
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  #41  
Old 08-08-2008, 07:46 AM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Malloy View Post
I was told in Art school that in today's age, the idea of doing everything on your own is over. We must learn to collaborate
Okay. So are we all supposed to surrender, and turn ourselves in to the neighborhood art collective?

Further proof of the value of an art education at the Ministry of Art, Propoganda, and Lies.
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  #42  
Old 08-08-2008, 07:52 AM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by grommet View Post
Evaldart, you afraid you'll go Hulk all over someone?

No rage at all here...but its true that I attempt to become a tornado of hammers, wrenches, torches and cheater-bars when I'm in the zone. Could result in a trip to the dentist for my poor art-buddy.
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  #43  
Old 08-08-2008, 08:00 AM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

I like control of my work as much as anyone. I think in the actual creation of a piece, it is mine. But I have accumulated a life time of experiences and advice and it can not help but filter into my work. Anyone that thinks their work is unique hasn't searched around the internet. EVERYONE is influenced by others. But I'm thinking collaboration here means actually working on a physical piece together. This is different from brainstorming.

Brainstorming is actually building on every idea that pops up until you don't know who said what but you have built a vision. This is the time for sitting around a big fire and just talking with like minds. We have a saying in my circle, "whoever does it, gets to choose". Sometimes we brainstorm about what they are into and sometimes what we are into. Everything builds.

My best brainstorming buddy died this year and I feel a bit unraveled but I still have her inside my head, talking to me. I don't talk a lot here but I follow you. Phew, sometimes you give me a headache but mostly you inspire me. You give me things to think about. I love it when there is a good conversation going. Scout
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  #44  
Old 08-08-2008, 09:34 AM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

To collaborate you have to have a significant meeting of the minds. For some, meeting your own minds intimately and thoroughly is rich beyond belief....like who needs more minds and all their interfering weirdnesses?
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  #45  
Old 08-08-2008, 10:36 AM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
To collaborate you have to have a significant meeting of the minds. For some, meeting your own minds intimately and thoroughly is rich beyond belief....like who needs more minds and all their interfering weirdnesses?
I can see that Joe, but sometimes art just happens, no planning or limited anyway, few rules, spontaneity, feeling as opposed to thought, process as opposed to planning or design, the simple act of doing. More minds can interfere, or contribute.. I suppose it is all about how you look at it. I was overjoyed to work with another member here this year and I think it's turning out quite nicely. Albeit a little late. uhmhm.

Oh, I suppose it's safe to mention that it can be hard enough to trust yourself to do something you're going to be pleased with, nevermind trusting someone else, but there's a magic in it that you won't find soloing, like opening a christmas present and seeing what's inside. Whether you like the present or not isn't really the point in this kind of excercise, it's analogous to christmas in that it's about sharing.

Last edited by StevenW : 08-08-2008 at 10:48 AM.
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  #46  
Old 08-08-2008, 11:20 AM
Giotto Giotto is offline
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

"Painters are not in any way unsociable through pride, but either because they find few pursuits equal to painting, or in order not to corrupt themselves with conversation and so debase the imaginings in which they are absorbed." (Michelangelo)

G

PS It has been said he worked 16-20 hours a day because he believed only he could create the detail and nuance of his best work. He once fell asleep while working on a sculpture...an apprentice took the hammer from his hand and some of his skin came off with it. So he did collaborate but only to the extent he had to to accomplish his goals.

Helas quelle dolour –voici quelle joie! (Alas what pain – behold what joy!)
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  #47  
Old 08-08-2008, 11:57 AM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

Quote:
I can see that Joe, but sometimes art just happens, no planning or limited anyway, few rules, spontaneity, feeling as opposed to thought, process as opposed to planning or design, the simple act of doing.
Of course that's the way it is...if you don't confuse my use of the word mind with thinking. When you see the beauty in being alive, art can and does happen anywhere without provocation. There is a difference between self expression as an internal art activity and creating for the joy, or job, of making something for art's sake or commission gathering.
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  #48  
Old 08-09-2008, 03:40 PM
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

just getting away from the philosophy of collaboration,
In the mid 50's a group of artists got together in saskatchewan and made stuff together. As far as I know it is still going, (Emma Lake Project)
through visiting artists, the concept evolved and spread like a virus worldwide.
I go to one in New Zealand every second year (CollaboratioNZ) and it's about as much fun as you can have.

50-60 artists from all over the world,sculptors,painters metalheads,glass, ceramics,jewellers, multimedia etc, etc , even had a neon artist and upholstery artist,
just about every thing is supplied by the organisers and local artists, forges, foundry, glass kilns, wood machinery,paints ,tools and a huge pile of resource (junk) materials.
There is no agenda, no rules,and no ego's, just combine materials, tools, artists and stir,
all pieces get auctioned at the end to help fund the next one.
and, most importantly,its not about the ART. or the finished object,
it's about the making
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  #49  
Old 08-09-2008, 03:56 PM
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underfoot underfoot is offline
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

a couple more pics
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  #50  
Old 08-09-2008, 03:58 PM
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underfoot underfoot is offline
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Re: Collaboration: Any Thoughts?

just getting away from the philosophy of collaboration,
In the mid 50's a group of artists got together in saskatchewan and made stuff together. As far as I know it is still going, (Emma Lake Project)
through visiting artists, the concept evolved and spread like a virus worldwide.
I go to one in New Zealand every second year (CollaboratioNZ) and it's about as much fun as you can have.

50-60 artists from all over the world,sculptors,painters metalheads,glass, ceramics,jewellers, multimedia etc, etc , even had a neon artist and upholstery artist,
just about every thing is supplied by the organisers and local artists, forges, foundry, glass kilns, wood machinery,paints ,tools and a huge pile of resource (junk) materials.
There is no agenda, no rules,and no ego's, just combine materials, tools, artists and stir,
all pieces get auctioned at the end to help fund the next one.
and, most importantly,its not about the ART. or the finished object,
it's about the making
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