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  #1  
Old 12-03-2009, 09:00 AM
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GlennT GlennT is offline
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An important clarification

There have been the occasional differences of opinion between myself and evaldart regarding his notion that the act of creating art is the more significant than the object produced. Taken to an extreme, his ideal might have the artist becoming an actor with no objects actually produced. But that is not what he means, and likewise I realized that my position of the object produced having the most significance is not entirely it either.

So, for clarification...

What I consider to be of most significance in the process of creating a work of art is the object having been imbued with the love and creative consciousness of the artist.

What I like or dislike about art, then, has less to do with the object and more to do with the love or lack of love that is percieved to have been a motivator behind the object, and the quality of creative consciousness expressed. These factors are then what I respond to most. Otherwise, a formula of using excellent planes, lines, gestures, etc. would never fail to elicit the same response no matter who applied them. Yet I look at neoclassical sculpture and am not be moved in the same manner as I am looking at a works by Phidias, Polykleitos, Myron, or Praxiteles.

That is also why, though I am a figurative sculptor, I can find certain abstract works that move me more than certain figurative works within the overall framework of my preferring to enjoy figurative works.
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  #2  
Old 12-03-2009, 09:08 AM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: An important clarification

well, it looks like you and E are looking at the same thing from different sides, with Evaldart's more aware of the essence that causes the whole beautiful mess.
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  #3  
Old 12-03-2009, 09:49 AM
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Re: An important clarification

Quote:
What I like or dislike about art, then, has less to do with the object and more to do with the love or lack of love that is percieved to have been a motivator behind the object, and the quality of creative consciousness expressed
"Quality of Creative Consciousness ". We haven't been able to agree on a definition of art, you now throw this notion of QCC, and "love" into the fray. Oh my.

Quote:
That is also why, though I am a figurative sculptor..the overall framework of my preferring to enjoy figurative works
I guess still don't get it when I have to factor in, how deep beneath the surface of the sculpture does love run. And the quality of the expressed QCC? Abstract sculpture doesn't B.S.. Fake people really look like fake people.

Quote:
What I consider to be of most significance in the process of creating a work of art is the object having been imbued with the love and creative consciousness of the artist.
Then you gotta luv Evals' work. He loves his work. He's the only one here that has some sort of measurement for how much luv was "imbued". He tells you the weight of every luv mangled work. And you know he luvs his consciousness even more. It is well trained, never too domineering or submissive.
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  #4  
Old 12-03-2009, 07:35 PM
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evaldart evaldart is offline
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Re: An important clarification

Glenn, seeing as you've addressed the sublime and supreme entity that is consciousness, that singularity that never belongs and is never owned, that unearthly presider and unchallenged decider of all reality; I'll gladly clarify (despite posessing a full understanding that clarification, resolution, articulation and de-mystification are all quite the deadest of ends).

You use the silly term "love" where intensity should be insterted. Its easy to understand what "love" is as it refers to human function. It refers to emotional sensations trained into us by nature to be sure that we care enough to go out of our way to preserve other humans. A no brainer...I feel it, you feel it...everyone feels it. Same as hate...the fuel utilized against those who might subvert your sustaining. Both of them, love and hate (and the assigned vocabulary of hundreds of levels between them) are only relevent as you wheel and deal and trudge through the mundaneness of the day. Yes, they are attached to certain sensations...but solid honesty in the mirror will tell you that they are common...not so special. So "love" has no use in the discussion of Art and aesthetics which require freed intellects, loosed impulsivenesses and temporary (but COMPLETE) severings from Natures sentimental afflictions.

I'd rather not call myself abstract nor figurative...because, like you, when the thing is good - its good. When form is performing pertinently (in its own teritory) it is Art...when form is not performing, only belonging, copying, participating and enlisting itself to the task of joining history - well, then it is craft...or nonsense.

We have no choice but to begin our unrequired efforts by the use of the stuff of those greater volumes of durations that have us attending to function...but it is that SEPERATE action, the unforseen yet fully intended travail, the misuse of the body, mind and the tools, the abuse of the material.....and the eventual conceding to all those same things when the fuel runs out. THAT is the art, THAT can never truly make it into the eyeholes of any viewers; so what gets seen, the artifact, only hints at the gains that were made (by artist). But a hint is better than nothing. And a hint of REAL Art is better than Mount Rushmores, Grand Canyons, Pyramids and all the silly collossi brought about by thousands of blank-eyed and automatoned wagers and slaves and their unable lords who did the witted-only penciling.

So then, it must be the case that the true, pure and FULL effectiveness of creativity is NOT give-able to anyone...not even in the name of love. Sorry.

Last edited by evaldart : 12-03-2009 at 08:34 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-03-2009, 08:22 PM
CroftonGraphics CroftonGraphics is offline
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Re: An important clarification

This might be of interest to you all -

I dont know if u can watch this over there but this was on the other day -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...eauty_Matters/

To me his argument got boring in the first 10 minutes and a lot of his conclusions on 'beauty' could be applied to those who he was attacking.
Then he started praising this terrible modern English Village that Prince Charles likes. However, he did present his argument in a well founded way.

There was another programme called Ugly Beauty, (not Betty), which was far more interesting in my opinion, it had a lot of contemporary art on it. You might be able to find that on our fantastic I player too!

We also have a programme at the moment called 'school of saatchi' again u might be able to find it. Which is a reality TV show and some young art students doing the saatchi stuff.

We get all the shows over here! lol.
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  #6  
Old 12-03-2009, 09:09 PM
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Re: An important clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
So "love" has no use in the discussion of Art and aesthetics which require freed intellects, loosed impulsivenesses and temporary (but COMPLETE) severings from Natures sentimental afflictions.
Your methods may differ from mine, but have no greater merit by having dispensed with the term "love" or its effective action. Then again, it may be a difference in semantics.

If you know the difference between being indifferent to someone, liking someone, and loving someone, that same degree of emotional involvement applied to the perception of the subject (nature, yes, nature, for example) and the object of creation in a work of art should indicate a difference in outcomes.

Further, if artists are grateful for the gifts of creativity they have been blessed with, and truly love the creative process, and love the historical stream of accomplishments that their fellow artists have left in their pursuit of mastery, then that love compels them to continually elevate their level of craftsmanship so that the vessel of their heart, head, and hands becomes a chalice worthy to receive and interpret the highest impulses that flash through their consciousness as inspiration to be translated into form.

I maintain that one can tell from perceiving a work of art when that intensity of love is absent, and when it is present. There are many shades and degrees in between, but the stark absence or the intense presence of love makes the difference between a work that disturbs the pysche and one that exalts.

Last edited by GlennT : 12-03-2009 at 09:44 PM. Reason: clarifying the clarification
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  #7  
Old 12-04-2009, 09:05 AM
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Re: An important clarification

Quote:
the stark absence or the intense presence of love makes the difference between a work that disturbs the pysche and one that exalts.
You think that the psyche should only be exalted, no questions asked? How narcissistic. Many(most?) psyches need disturbing in order to wake up!
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  #8  
Old 12-04-2009, 09:52 AM
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Re: An important clarification

Have you even tried the other approach?
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  #9  
Old 12-04-2009, 10:14 AM
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Re: An important clarification

I have a honey theory - it has to be sweet, given everything that goes into it...flowers, along with being beautiful in their own right, are also the genitalia of the plant, and the myriad of complex systems they use to deposit pollen on the bees..OMG...and all that incredible work of the bees...
Honey's like good art.
It's the sweet product of an intimate relationship.
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  #10  
Old 12-04-2009, 10:40 AM
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Re: An important clarification

Seems like the same Glenn argument: I love art that I love because the love I see in art reflects the love that I feel when I see art that I love and boy do I love seeing my love in art. You are definitely entitled to loving your view and all the love that bestows upon you. However, much great art does exist out side your parameters. That is where we always argue...about the work you can't get because it doesn't reflect the love your point of view requires.
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  #11  
Old 12-04-2009, 11:33 AM
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Re: An important clarification

And you don't seem to acknowledge an ability to "get" the art that one doesn't like, however "great" though it may be. In your world, do you only understand the things that you like, and all else is beyond your comphrehension? Come off the tower of condescension and give your fellow man some credit for being a reasoning, thinking person!
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:03 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
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Re: An important clarification

jOe and GlennT your discussion is very interesting. You are both very eleoquent in stating your points of view.
Putting aside my bias for the moment and trying to be objective would you guys please answer a question for me?

Do you believe that the universe is PRIMARILY build on ORDER or CHAOS?

I'm curious to see if this has anything to do with your particular views on art.
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  #13  
Old 12-04-2009, 01:15 PM
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Re: An important clarification

Quote:
Come off the tower of condescension and give your fellow man some credit for being a reasoning, thinking person!
I have always given you full credit for your exceptional ability to express yourself clearly, thoroughly, and humorously. We do bring out the "best" in each other.


Quote:
would you guys please answer a question for me?

Do you believe that the universe is PRIMARILY build on ORDER or CHAOS?

I'm curious to see if this has anything to do with your particular views on art.
The human brain, all brains, are designed to find order, pattern, or they won't function.
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:53 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
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Re: An important clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post


The human brain, all brains, are designed to find order, pattern, or they won't function.
OK Joe but what do you believe? Take a stand, I'm only asking you what you believe. I'm not looking to argue the point having myself no proof either way.
Personally I "believe "that the universe is primarly based on order.

Perhaps you are sugesting that the universe is based on disorder but that the mind see's order in the chaos?
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  #15  
Old 12-04-2009, 02:29 PM
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Re: An important clarification

I believe that the universe is built on a basis of order as conceived by God.

I'm not sure how jOe figures in the equation...perhaps the result of a pre-basis-of-order experiment?
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:19 PM
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Re: An important clarification

Quote:
I believe that the universe is built on a basis of order as conceived by God.

I'm not sure how jOe figures in the equation...perhaps the result of a pre-basis-of-order experiment?
God is really another artist. He invented the giraffe, the elephant, and the cat. He has no real style. He just goes on trying other things. (Pablo Picasso)
But more to the point of answering Glenn's' query about "how jOe~ figures in the equation ": If God made us in His image, we have certainly returned the compliment. (Voltaire)

Last edited by jOe~ : 12-04-2009 at 03:32 PM. Reason: answeringthe question
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:24 PM
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Re: An important clarification

It's been known for some time now that the universe is fundamentally built on the uncertainty principal both on the micro and macro levels. On the micro-level this simply means that we cannot say or predict where any given particle is or will be (protons and electrons can actually be in two places at once, which gave rise to theories on parallel universes etc..) and on the macro level the universe is not evenly distributed as we would predict/expect in an orderly big-bang, but is rather "frothy" like the accumulated flotsam and jetsam beneath a waterfall where matter can be very active in one place and quite calm in another. In short, the universe is neither ordered, nor chaotic, but rather both.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:28 PM
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Re: An important clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
I believe that the universe is built on a basis of order as conceived by God.
Thanks GlennT for you forthright and definitive answer.
So far I have one undecided and one definate vote for Order in the universe.
Kind of makes me want to here from other sculptors such as Cratex who never has any trouble stepping up to the plate.
Or Evaldart, grommet, Alfred, WillPaq, etc.
Once again the question is " do you believe that the universe is PRIMARILY built on ORDER or CHAOS.
Thanks in advance for anybody else who wants to vote.
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  #19  
Old 12-04-2009, 03:33 PM
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Re: An important clarification

Start a new thread in the poll section. Let us have order, not chaos here!
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:37 PM
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Re: An important clarification

Quote:
In short, the universe is neither ordered, nor chaotic, but rather both.
Like I've been saying...Reality is relative. Everything else is absolute.

Springfield: put a yes in both columns for Steven and me.

Last edited by jOe~ : 12-04-2009 at 03:40 PM. Reason: reply to Springfield
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:38 PM
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Re: An important clarification

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Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
In short, the universe is neither ordered, nor chaotic, but rather both.
Thank's StevenW. Since this is a poll I'll have to interperate this as another undecided.
So far two undecided and one vote for order in the universe. Thanks again.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:56 PM
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Re: An important clarification

The universe is inconsequential, just another damned extrapolated myth. Nothing is happening out there worth wondering about.... Dont bother with it or you'll burst a blood vessel in your nut. Worry about how chaotic or ordred things are at your arms length. Make the things that happin in THAT space be whatever you intend. Beyond that, its all fantasy, fun and musing.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:57 PM
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Re: An important clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~ View Post
Like I've been saying...Reality is relative. Everything else is absolute.

Springfield: put a yes in both columns for Steven and me.
jOe I think you are a very cruel person HA HA. Yes What? Your cilling me.

I just started a thread in the polls section as GlennT sugested. Hope to hear from you and everyone else.
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  #24  
Old 12-04-2009, 04:02 PM
SPRINGFIELD SPRINGFIELD is offline
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Re: An important clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
The universe is inconsequential, just another damned extrapolated myth. Nothing is happening out there worth wondering about.... Dont bother with it or you'll burst a blood vessel in your nut. Worry about how chaotic or ordred things are at your arms length. Make the things that happin in THAT space be whatever you intend. Beyond that, its all fantasy, fun and musing.
Thanks evaldart - because it's a poll I'm listing you as undecided.
That's three undecided and one definate vote for ORDER. Thanks again.
Also I've startred a thread in the polls section if you would like to change your vote.
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