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  #1  
Old 06-24-2005, 03:54 PM
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Visualizing 3D

I posted in News and Events that I had gone to see the Gonzolaz show at the Cervantes Center in NY and also went to the MOMA.

After digesting all I saw I came to the realization that I was not all that excited by seeing, in person, the sculptures by Moore, or Lipchitz, or Giacommetti, or Baccione, or Duchamp, or Brancusi, or .......

After all, I've seen all the work in books--over and over again--for years.

Then I began to wonder, as a sculptor, am I able to appreciate a photo of a piece of sculpture because I am use to visualizing things in 3D? Do I fill in the unseen parts of a sculpture in my mind by mapping out the image based on what is visible?

I've read quite a bit on the visual influence in art including Rudolph Arnheim's "Visual Thinking" and "Art and Visual Perception" and couldn't help thinking my observation might be valid.

Any thoughts on this out there?
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  #2  
Old 06-24-2005, 05:23 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

A great number of us, especially artists are able to visualize in 3d. It is a particular blessing for a sculptor! I will often start with an idea and in my mind develop many different ramifications of the original thread with numerous branches leading to images far different from the original concept. All the while rotating and altering the images, while still being able to backspace and go off in another direction. I probably look like a total geek when doing this, but it does work.
john
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  #3  
Old 06-24-2005, 08:17 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

I'd call it a necessity for a sculptor, rather than a blessing, John.

Oddist, I know what you mean about the seeming disparity between photographed artwork and the actual work itself. Especially when a professional photographer has been used, photos of artwork are always shot to advantage, and, of course, that's the whole idea; i.e., to make the work as attractive as possible. It's especially the case with paintings that are photographed for publication, as the reduction of the image size makes the colors more vivid and heightens the overall appearance. I think this is true of just about anything that is photographed...even some people.

Gary
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Old 06-24-2005, 08:32 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Quote:
Originally Posted by oddist
I posted in News and Events that I had gone to see the Gonzolaz show at the Cervantes Center in NY and also went to the MOMA.

After digesting all I saw I came to the realization that I was not all that excited by seeing, in person, the sculptures by Moore, or Lipchitz, or Giacommetti, or Baccione, or Duchamp, or Brancusi, or .......

After all, I've seen all the work in books--over and over again--for years.

Then I began to wonder, as a sculptor, am I able to appreciate a photo of a piece of sculpture because I am use to visualizing things in 3D? Do I fill in the unseen parts of a sculpture in my mind by mapping out the image based on what is visible?

I've read quite a bit on the visual influence in art including Rudolph Arnheim's "Visual Thinking" and "Art and Visual Perception" and couldn't help thinking my observation might be valid.

Any thoughts on this out there?
Oddist - Iím not sure your issue has anything to do with 3D thinking, and whatís bothering you may be something else altogether. I admit I have no suggestions about an alternative issue. Iíve seen works by everyone you list except Gonzalez, and I think theyíre all reasonably good as sculptors.

Personally, I donít care for what Iíve seen by Giacometti or Baccione, but I consider that personal taste, and I donít question their stature as sculptors. The others I like a great deal, and Iíve seen several works by each, in person.
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Old 06-25-2005, 08:18 AM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Hi, I've seen plenty of work by all those sculptors you listed, either in person and/or in books. I think I've gotten to the point where I'd rather look at contemporary work, stuff done recently and which I haven't seen before.
They're all great sculptors and not that long ago but they almost seem like ancient history to me. I'd rather look at new work by artists I'm not familiar with because their work speaks to us TODAY in today's sculptural language or I'd maybe rather study art that I'm not familiar with from ancient times.
Of course we can still learn from those guys, but I feel overloaded with their work.
So I avoid them!
Have a nice day,
Jeff
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Old 06-25-2005, 10:42 AM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

For me, it's exactly the opposite, Ironman. In my world, Henry Moore, Barbara Hepworth and Jean Arp are my inspiration and my idols. Most of what I see done today leaves me cold; I hesitate to even acknowledge much of it as sculpture at all, because so much of it is anti-form. And I'm not even talking about figuration. If that makes me a "traditionalist," then I guess I am, though it's the modernist tradition. Minimalism, if done well, I like very much, but my main attraction is to pure, non-objective organic form. Performance art and installations, on the other hand, as well as the contemporary extension of what Duchamp termed "ready-mades," just leave me wondering whether they're art or not. I don't know, maybe it's just because I'm over fifty.

Gary
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Old 06-25-2005, 04:30 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

John Simms is the only one that seems to have understood what I was getting at about visualizing in 3D.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my posting.

All the works I saw are fantastic..I admire all the artist's and am greatful to them for leading the way for modern sculpture..The quandary is, since I visualize in 3D, have I been enjoying mental 3 dimensional images of the works just by viewing them in books for so many years? And because of this, was the viewing in person nothing special?

I'm not saying I was disappointed, just not all that moved.

The one thing that did get my attention though was the four "Back" pieces by Matisse...I had no idea they were as large, or possibly larger, than life! I just never looked at the size posted on any book image. Shame on me..
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  #8  
Old 06-26-2005, 08:21 AM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Hi Gary, I too am over 50 and having seen so much of their (Moore, Arp, etc.) work over the years that I just don't want to look at it that much any more. I lived in NYC until I was 48, so I've been very fortunate to see the best (as well as the worst) art and plenty of it.
I'd rather look at work done by MY contemporaries.
As far as performance, installation and the readymade stuff is concerned, I agree with you 100%.
Hi Oddist, The Matisse backs used to be mounted on the back wall of the sculpture garden at MOMA, NYC. I always enjoyed looking at them while sitting out in that garden.
Have a nice day,
Jeff
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  #9  
Old 06-26-2005, 11:45 AM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Hey it seemed not long ago I got pasted on this web site for saying I visualize in 3-d and I do not pre plan and draw many of my works because I did not have life drawing, I could not "See".I guess I recond I am not the only one "seeing",of course never figured I was.I enjoy looking at the"masters"works and artist today,but the performance/computer generated art does little for me.Bold statement to think NY has the best art,ever been to Italy?
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  #10  
Old 06-26-2005, 01:15 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Well, I do like the work of my contemporaries, also, Iron Ant. I have to really search to find those whose work I respect and admire, but there are many out there (quite a few are ISC members). It seems the current trend is either away from traditional technique, or back toward it; I can't decide which. I've swung both ways, myself and, though I'm now doing sculpture via digital means (for bronze casting), I'll be doing traditional modeling/carving for lost wax casting, also. As one of my graphic design professors once remarked, the more things go "high-tech," the more there is a counter-trend toward "high-touch." By "high-touch," he meant the creation of art by traditional means in traditional media, of course. So it goes with me. I can only do digital artwork for so long without becoming inspired to do something with my hands besides type and wield a mouse.

Gary
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  #11  
Old 06-26-2005, 01:48 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Quote:
Originally Posted by oddist
...
Then I began to wonder, ... Do I fill in the unseen parts of a sculpture in my mind by mapping out the image based on what is visible?


Any thoughts on this out there?
Yes----filling in the missing parts with rational constructs enhanced through education and studied referencing.

me to

it's a blessing and a curse----

----When I'm working on something and it just doesn't "feel right"----and I can't quite nail down the problem---
---I find that I am mentally filling in the missing right stuff and glossing over the wrong stuff---
---that's when I take lots of photographs of the work, and/or start sketching-----
I find that by detaching my invested mind from the 3d work at hand and viewing it from 2d representations of various views, the "wrong stuff" becomes more obvious.

the trick is in keeping the 3d editor detached from the 2d eyes while trying to see the flaws

on a similar note
I suspect that there is no such thing as a memory as commonly understood, and that we all have (core memory) vignettes around which we build rational constructs, and then call the end product a memory.

so, when I like someone else's work, I keep perusing various views until i find my favorite site line vignette, then focus, defocus, refocus.....again and again to burn that image into a personal "memory"---

so when someong mentions a certain work, I may only have a good memory of a shoulder, or a foot, or the way the lips part.....or the way the arm's position defines the shoulderblade...etc

rod
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  #12  
Old 06-29-2005, 08:52 AM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Quote:
Originally Posted by oddist
I posted in News and Events that I had gone to see the Gonzolaz show at the Cervantes Center in NY and also went to the MOMA.

After digesting all I saw I came to the realization that I was not all that excited by seeing, in person, the sculptures by Moore, or Lipchitz, or Giacommetti, or Baccione, or Duchamp, or Brancusi, or .......

After all, I've seen all the work in books--over and over again--for years.

Then I began to wonder, as a sculptor, am I able to appreciate a photo of a piece of sculpture because I am use to visualizing things in 3D? Do I fill in the unseen parts of a sculpture in my mind by mapping out the image based on what is visible?

I've read quite a bit on the visual influence in art including Rudolph Arnheim's "Visual Thinking" and "Art and Visual Perception" and couldn't help thinking my observation might be valid.

Any thoughts on this out there?
Oddist-
I recently read an article about how a single neuron in the brain can recognize a celebrity. It's probably a simple 2D tag, something like what an infant uses to identify Momma. Remembering a sculpture must be a different kind of rememberence, because we are seeking more than identification-I believe that when we recall a sculpture we've only encountered in 2D, it is the complete form that we constructed in our minds the first time we saw it that we recall. The reason why I say this is because once something deemed important is prioritized in memory, it becomes a reference for all other later views of the thing. Now when you think of Matisses' backs, they are still larger than you expected. But what about their form - are the formerly invisible areas like you imagined? This is a very interesting question you've brought up. gorillaonfire
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  #13  
Old 06-29-2005, 12:13 PM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Well, stated. Adding to that effect is the fact that memory is schematic. That is to say, it is built up from fragments known as schema and the more schema there are for a particular image or subject, the more persistent and the more detailed the memory of it becomes. Recall time also increases as schema become more dense and cross-associations with other schema serve to build multiple triggers or cues for memories of kinds, thus, a smell or a sound or a word can trigger a cascade of associated memories in an instant.

That said, all the pictures one may have seen of a particular sculpture are interwoven, so, if you've seen several still images of the same piece, taken from different angles, even if you saw them years apart from each other, you have a more or less three dimensional memory of the object, built up of your memories of those still images. I know I've seen, for example, Henry Moore's "Knife Edge" so many times in print and from so many angles, I know what it looks like from nearly any vantage point and would immediately recognize "Knife Edge" if I saw it in the round, from whatever view I had of it, and all of this owing to my books on Moore's work.

Gary
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  #14  
Old 06-30-2005, 12:07 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Hi All
It often amazes me how one can recognize a persons face from a great distance or from a tiny very low rez image.
Obviously the expectation or likelihood of seeing an individual in a particular
context plays an important role here, but nonetheless I am still impressed.


Mark
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  #15  
Old 06-30-2005, 07:12 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

About object recognition...look up "Gestalt" at Artlex for a good description.

Look up "Movement" too.
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  #16  
Old 07-10-2005, 09:09 AM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Hi there.The beneffit of looking the books is big not dought.The 90% of all information that we get is visual.But you mantion Brancusi the great sculptor.He has one pice of art "Pieta Slepi".The sculpture is inside of someting as metal conteiner with two holes .You put your hands in this holes and only tach it .The message is clear.Not vicion not smel The sculpture the sape is over it .The sape existh indipendant in the space and visualizind in 3D is not enought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oddist
John Simms is the only one that seems to have understood what I was getting at about visualizing in 3D.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my posting.

All the works I saw are fantastic..I admire all the artist's and am greatful to them for leading the way for modern sculpture..The quandary is, since I visualize in 3D, have I been enjoying mental 3 dimensional images of the works just by viewing them in books for so many years? And because of this, was the viewing in person nothing special?

I'm not saying I was disappointed, just not all that moved.

The one thing that did get my attention though was the four "Back" pieces by Matisse...I had no idea they were as large, or possibly larger, than life! I just never looked at the size posted on any book image. Shame on me..
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Old 07-12-2005, 01:45 AM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Hi Ironant, In reference to my statement about seeing the best art in the world in NYC, I stand by that. First of all, you're asking if I've ever been to Italy (yes I have), as if to compare a city to a country, and the city in question being the art capitol of the WORLD from shortly after WWII until at least the mid 90's and maybe it still is!
The works in the galleries and museums that I've seen when I lived there is beyond compare. To give you a few little examples, one of Mike's Pietas was in the 1964 worlds fair, 2 blockbuster Van Gogh museum shows, exchange show from Russia of Matisse's work in Wildenstein Gallery, King Tut, Moore retrospective, Gonzalez retro, Monet retro, Picasso retro, Rodin at the MMA, Bernar Venet in Chelsea, Serra's "Torqued Ellipses" at DIA. That's just a few that came to mind in a couple of minutes writing this. Not the sort of stuff you find in Mountaintown Ga. or Silver City NM where I live now. I'll tell you this, I got a priceless education just doing the galleries and museums on a regular basis and feel very fortunate to have grown up and lived most of my artistic formative years in NYC. I doubt if you could have seen as great and diverse art in all of Italy as I saw in NYC.
Have a nice day,
Jeff
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Old 07-12-2005, 08:09 AM
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Smile Re: Visualizing 3D

I tend to think imagination comes into play a great deal with sculptors or maybe it's just me!. I find myself sometimes drifting into imagining how an object looks from above etc. Its unerving and I feel terribly wierd when I do this! However I am suspicious of photos of work versus being in the presence of a work or better still touching the work. I do think that size of a work and the location can really blow your mind vs a photo. I also think touch is extremely important and when I used to carve marble I would routinly close my eyes and feel the whole piece registering high/low spots and transistion errors, Ihonestly believe I could be blind and still carve . I paint as well and I am not challenged nearly as much as I am dealing with only visual. My only caveat regarding 2d photography is... I looked at Mattise and Monet but I didn't see them until I was physically looking at them. I could not believe the beauty left behind by the camera. Same for Michelagelo, I was truly inspired in the presence of those works and spent the day walking around them endlessly!
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Old 07-12-2005, 02:29 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Looks like visualizing in 3D is a lot more important than we are lead to believe.

I found this description of a project at the University of Washington.

And don't you know..at their Departments Web Site they have a picture of the Numan's sculpture "Broken Obelisque"
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Old 07-12-2005, 04:03 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Oddist,
That was an intersting link, I would like to get into it more but have to book mark so's my plaster won't dry!!!
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Old 07-18-2005, 10:36 AM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

The other day, while driving on I-84 through Connecticut, I approached a billboard where I saw what appeared to be an African mask. It was lying on its side, was bright colored and had sharp geometric planes defining its features---but there was something wrong with what I saw. As I looked from road to sign a few times the image fluctuated between definable and undefinable until finally recognizable. To my surprise it was as a "Bowl of cut fruit." I never did notice what the sign was for.

Then this morning while driving to work I saw what I thought was a female Mallard standing at the side of the road as though getting ready to lead its brood across. After tapping the brake to slow down I found it just to be a fallen tree branch twisted in growth, appearing to me as a ducks body, neck, and head as I approached.

Although we may recognize what is really there, sometimes we recognize what is not...

(Pay attention to your grilled cheese sandwich)
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"Important artists are innovators whose work changes the practices of their successors; important works of art are those that embody these innovations."
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Old 07-20-2005, 03:08 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

Oddist,
Well said indeed. I spent several days by the river (not methophoric) gazing at the water. I began taking pictures of the geometric illusions created as the water moved. I instantly got inspired to create these "fluid forms" into my sculptures. Indeed, coming back I looked at a traffic light and so wished I had one because it is sort of an african mask. Hey I wasnt trippin... other people either don't see or don't take the time to record what they see, that is our job, to magnify perceptions and add value to those perceptions!
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Old 07-20-2005, 08:08 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D

As for seeing what is not there...I came across the following in Art and Illusion by Gombrich... in Chapter VI, "The Image in the Clouds"

From da Vinci's Treatise on Painting he speaks of his method of "quickening the spirit of invention."

You should look at certain walls stained with damp, or at stones of uneven colour. If you have to invent some backgrounds you will be able to see in these the likeness of divine landscapes, adorned with mountains, ruins, rocks, woods, great plains, hills and valleys in great variety; and then again you will see there battles and strange figures in violent action, expressions of faces and clothes and an infinity of things which you will be able to reduce to their complete and proper forms. In such walls the same thing happens as in the sound of bells, in whose stroke you may find every named work which you can imagine.

There are other passages, even more interesting, in which Leonardo discusses the power of "confused shapes," such as clouds or muddy water, to rouse the mind to new inventions......


--------

Sounds familiar doesn't it?
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Old 07-21-2005, 09:09 AM
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Question Re: Visualizing 3D

Yes oddist you are correct regarding imagining images while basically observing with your creative mind. Such is the exersize of countour drawing while intensly observing the object being drawn, it is clearly to me a form of meditation in which my mind starts working on a different level. But what about the Platonic observation that artist are simply people that replicate what is and do not go beyond the "shadow on the wall?" That is the philosophy 101 question I have been trying to break through all my life. In other words trying to connect directly with the CREATOR to bring forth that which had not been seen and not the muse within that simply is driving us to create. Follow what I'm trying to get at? Kind of like that metophoric "river" that some artist seem to be able to drink from and when we see the work and where it is going we say YES, GOD YES this person has just opened up a new super highway of creativity?
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:39 PM
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Re: Visualizing 3D; moving 2D imagery

Randy - Interesting that you describe this mental mechanism of synthesizing images from different views into a 3D picture. Iíve seen that discussed only rarely, though it did come up on this board a year or two ago. I may have been the person to mention it in response to something else. I became aware of this phenomenon about 30 or so years ago, in my scientific career in crystallography.

(Crystallography is the science of metaphorically looking at the detailed internal structures of molecules, atoms, and so on, by studying the way the crystals scatter Xrays, electrons, neutrons, or other high-energy radiation or very small particles. Often, people think Iím talking about fortunetelling when I use the word!)

Anyway, crystallography has been the tool most commonly used to prove the 3D molecular structure of very complex biological molecules such as hemoglobin, many other proteins, RNA, DNA, and so on.

Someone from the University of Pennsylvania, a private research foundation in Buffalo, NY, or at Oak Ridge National Lab, Iím not sure which, showed a short movie of a rotating protein diagram, after explaining the phenomenon, and it was amazing to see the effect for the first time. The diagram consisted of nothing more than short line segments connected at bends, with each bend representing one of the amino acid residues in the particular protein. (As further explanation, even the smallest protein molecules are made of chains of amino acid residues which contain a hundred-twenty or more links. These chains are bent, twisted and folded in very complex ways.)

Back to the ďmovieĒ. It consisted of nothing more than a computer-generated image of this very complex zig-zag line, but as the image rotated, the 3D structure popped into view mentally, probably in every member of the audience. This example is different from the one you gave, but both illustrate a very valuable property of the average human mind, of which most people are unaware.
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