Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net  

Go Back  Sculpture Community - Sculpture.net > Community Announcements > Sculpture News and Events
User Name
Password
Home Sculpture Community Photo Gallery ISC Sculpture.org Register FAQ Members List Search New posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 10-06-2007, 08:07 PM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Is this art?

jOe:

We are talking about two different things.

1. Freedom of expression

2. Art

I am a big supporter of both. Go have your fun with #1. I applaud your freedom, your fun, no boundries, no rules, etc. etc.
Just don't badger others with an attempt to force them to believe that the end product of #1 is always #2 . And don't try to limit my #1 words when I evaluate #2 using my intelligence, which fortunately has not been educated out of my grasp.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-06-2007, 08:23 PM
JasonGillespie's Avatar
JasonGillespie JasonGillespie is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 429
Re: Is this art?

One more time..

Quote:
So to protect freedom of expression for everyone,
Quote:
I've decided to thump the naysayers on the noggin, not that I have any fantasies of changing anyone. Cultural standards...thump, thump, thump.
My friend, you missed the point...you are saying two different things in the same sentence.

You profess to be a defender of freedom of expression and then say in the name if that self same freedom of expression that you are going to attack another's use of that freedom.

Hint...it's called hypocrisy.

Who touched your nose? GlennT?...he just offered his opinion....same with me...opinions are free expression! You bop other people's noses thinking it's ok so long as you do it as a self-appointed defender. Wise up you can't play the free speech card and then not let those you disagree with...disagree with you.

You talk the talk, you have to walk the walk.
GennT's remark's are his free speech...if you are the believer in it you make yourself out to be you shouldn't be getting on him for exercising it.



BTW I'm going to act like you didn't belittle my intelligence and say that yes..I understood your remarks about cultural standards. Thing is...I don't remember saying anything about cultural standards.
__________________
Ancora Imparo
Still I am learning

Michelangelo Buonarroti

Last edited by JasonGillespie : 10-06-2007 at 10:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-06-2007, 09:33 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Is this art?

Freedom of expression? I've been strangled by rising scrap metal costs, parylized by wounded machines, exiled by studio overhead and rejected by institutions both commercial and academic...but I have always found a way to make the things that I HAD to make. If you submit to being stifled, someone will do it to you - freedom of expression belongs to every human, if an individual chooses not to bother with it or decides to jump on board with another persons expressions (someone will gladly express for you), then they can't complain.

Cultural standards? Who sets these standards? The leading art farts of the era in a given geographical setting? All hogwash. If you actually care about the progress of your homo-sapien cohorts then you will do everything you can to tear-away from the things they've already done and focus on advancement. Don't be the stepping-stone, be the banana peel and send those backwards bafoons for a dipsy doodle. When they shake the stars out of their head they'll only see your ass in the distance, rushing ahead, freedom of expression firmly in hand, to your own banana peel.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-06-2007, 09:57 PM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Is this art?

This is clearly designed as a comic relief, I carve them myself but mine won't float.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-06-2007, 10:09 PM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Is this art?

evaldart:
I enjoy the flow of your words and the mood they convey.

I have to ask you about two of the words you used: progress, and advancement .

I'm willing to let go of the phrase " cultural standards " as not quite being up to the task of conveying what I was trying to say, as long as you are willing to admit that the work calling into question, " Is this art? ", for the most part have little to do with either progress or advancement ( other than that of the artist and those who profit from the artist's product ).

The problem with defining what standards are is that ultimately no one sets them but the artist. So, the artist may choose to be informed by ( but not stifled by ) 150,000 years of human achievement and its evolution, or decide that its all hogwash and " I'll do it MYYYYYY WAYYYY " .

When I compare the standards internalized by DaVinci, Bernini, Titian, Michelangelo, Phidias, Polykleitus, Sargent, Whistler, Saint-Gaudens, and a host of others who were breaking new ground in their day, with the standards of many of today's "freedom of expression" crowd, I don't see much to write home about of a brave new world of progress and advancement achieved by the later.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 10-06-2007, 10:44 PM
JasonGillespie's Avatar
JasonGillespie JasonGillespie is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 429
Re: Is this art?

Quote:
If you actually care about the progress of your homo-sapien cohorts then you will do everything you can to tear-away from the things they've already done and focus on advancement.
Sometimes advancement is tied to looking back...sometimes it is ignoring what has been done before, but it isn't the same for all people.

Different creativities use different sources to progress.

For those of the Renaissance it was the ancient Greeks and Romans. They looked back to move forward.

Jackson Pollock decided to trailblaze without reference and created his own path.

Henry Moore used antiquity, Salvador Dali, Rodin, and coalminers...all rolled together to create new visions of form.

Warhol looked to popular culture to create his own iconography.

These two lists could go on for a long time, but you get the point.

Just doing something that has never been done before isn't the formula for great art...not for everybody. Each person must follow their own particular muse. This type of onesided view is one of the the reasons I voiced skepticism that the original question can be adequately dealt with in an environment that is already polarized in two very distinct directions.
__________________
Ancora Imparo
Still I am learning

Michelangelo Buonarroti
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-06-2007, 10:47 PM
evaldart's Avatar
evaldart evaldart is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: easthampton, massachusetts
Posts: 5,637
Re: Is this art?

Glenn, I'm sure the tone of my proclamations reveals that I am merely "affecting" ownership of greater human understanding and that my all-knowing air of superiority chameleons the fact that I am actually way too cave-man for my own good.

If It seems I often disrespect the greats of history it is because it is far too easy ( and quite tragic) for someone to waste many good years, even a life as a sniveling understudy. "greatness" needn't have anything to do with the betterment of humanity. Trancendence is a thing that occurs in a place in your head so small that only a few macrobiotic electrons can exchange those high-fives there. And that place uses your body , and the dirt, and outer-space too like a shape-shifting Leatherman whittling a daily self-portrait out of your consciousness.

(Whew)

That giant paper boat up there is funny as hell. Funny is fun, art can be fun, art can be funny. And if you attach "art" to "creativity" , as I belive it should be in my present non-definition (I woudn't dare) then you and maybe some in your wake will find the road to advancement. Our futures will be directed by the questions we will ask not by the answers we have received.

Cave-man, out
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-07-2007, 12:04 AM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Is this art?

Holy crap, that was like Fischer announcing forced mate in ten moves.

All because of a paper boat!

The cave-man thing I can relate to, bring on the cave-man!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-07-2007, 02:52 AM
Aaron Schroeder's Avatar
Aaron Schroeder Aaron Schroeder is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Shelby, Ohio
Posts: 856
Re: Is this art?

What I like about sculptors.........and artist in general.........they have long vision. Meaning......they can see far into the future. Most have studied the works of the past, most have worked feverishly in the present and most see their work having an influence in the future. Most ( not all ) see some one living in the future, long past their death..........getting it. The folks of the future may not see the actual work, perhaps just a picture or a story.......but what they see will be ideas of people striving to go above and beyond the neccessities of the every day.

What I love about the big paper boat..........there's nothing like it in the history books. When I think about all the images I've seen from antiquity.......I have a hard time recalling anything that indicates people of the past had any outrageous fun. I assume they had some wild times.......I've seen images of objects that indicate folks loved to party......music,drinking,orgies...etc........but nothing ridiculus or out of bounds. It's like our ancestors never had a silly moment. Or perhaps if they did ......they destroyed all the evidence.

I feel like I'm living in the best of times because I don't have to look far to find something that makes me bust out laughing. People are funny. People do funny outrageous stuff and they document it.

If the archeoligist, art historians and the museum goers of the distant future find themselves laughing histerically at the art of our age........all the better. We had fun.....we did some crazy stuff. Not like the boring stiffs of our past. They'll see plenty of serious art too..........lots of monuments to the fallen hereos...... sacrificed to the forces of stupidity. Plenty of those types of sculptures and art objects can be found in any epoch.

I hope this period of time produces loads of funny, irreverent, silly, stupid art ...........considering all the catastrophies slated for future.........all the human suffering that is certain to happen.........the folks of the future ( our children ) will need all the commedy relief they can get. Make something funny.........it's the best medicine........for whatever.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-07-2007, 09:33 AM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Is this art?

Quote:
Further revealing my bias, I invite you read an excerpt from an article I wrote for Classical Realism Journal in 1996, Vol. III, issue 1, which was an interview I had with him:
Six days ago Glenn posted the above comment and this link to the interview he conducted . Here is an excerpt, the opening question from Glenn:

CRJ: In your 1990 interview with CRQ [Classical Realism Quarterly], you seemed to be in the vanguard of a movement to overturn the tyranny of the National Endowment for the Arts and the "modern art" establishment. How has that battle progressed for you?

Hart: We are still on the outside looking in. They still occupy the castle and they're still in there, but there are more angry peasants around the castle walls.


Here is the concept of cultural standards again. Yet Glenn says"I applaud your freedom, your fun, no boundries, no rules, etc. etc." Baloney. You don't know your own mind.



Quote:
I understood your remarks about cultural standards. Thing is...I don't remember saying anything about cultural standards.
Jason, the point is, you would have if you got it.

The ISC hosts this forum. The ISC sponsors exhibits and publishes excellent literature on contemporary art. The majority of ISC's efforts would not exist under Glenn's honest concept of artistic freedom. I'm done commenting. The obvious is too obvious.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-07-2007, 11:50 AM
Tlouis Tlouis is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 389
Re: Is this art?

"Art is anything you can get away with." Andy Warhol.

Apparently, more and more people have taken this infamous dictum to heart and are running with it as fast as they can. Too bad there isn't a stampeding heard of longhorns catching up to them.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-07-2007, 01:00 PM
GlennT's Avatar
GlennT GlennT is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,213
Re: Is this art?

Thanks jOe for volunteering to withold further commenting. That gives me a chance to untangle the web of miscomphrehension from the previous post and hopefully leave what I have said unsullied by insertions of positions that are not mine but alleged to be such.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jOe~
Six days ago Glenn posted the above comment and this link to the interview he conducted . Here is an excerpt, the opening question from Glenn:

CRJ: In your 1990 interview with CRQ [Classical Realism Quarterly], you seemed to be in the vanguard of a movement to overturn the tyranny of the National Endowment for the Arts and the "modern art" establishment. How has that battle progressed for you?

Hart: We are still on the outside looking in. They still occupy the castle and they're still in there, but there are more angry peasants around the castle walls.


Here is the concept of cultural standards again.

In this case, from a recent discussion of 11 years ago, Frederick Hart and I were looking at the "cultural standards" that the "freedom of expression" crowd had created so as to leave no room, no welcome, no acceptance to those who were at that time working in the tradition of figurative representation. I'm not sure if that was what you were trying to point out here...

Yet Glenn says"I applaud your freedom, your fun, no boundries, no rules, etc. etc." Baloney. You don't know your own mind.

I know my own mind well enough to point out that applauding your freedom to create without rules is not the same thing as applauding the results. If the freedom without rules helps you produce good works of art, I will applaud that too. Just to show that I am sincere and not just saying this, I will remind you that I have applauded some of the work that evaldart has produced, which he has created with a similar mindset. I have acknowledged the good efforts of others, sparingly perhaps, who throw out the past altogether, but still manage to come up with good ideas and actual art.

Jason, the point is, you would have if you got it.

A little reminder that Jason and I are two different people, who have expressed two different points of view, at least, ever since the doctor seperated us at birth!


The ISC hosts this forum. The ISC sponsors exhibits and publishes excellent literature on contemporary art. The majority of ISC's efforts would not exist under Glenn's honest concept of artistic freedom.

Only true in jOe's world, where it is easier to smear than to be clear. Again, for the I -don't- know- how -manyth time, I have personal standards that define for me what is art and what is not. All the stupidity in the world will not change my standards. I have never to my knowledge told another artist or even implied that they cannot create whatever the heck they want to.
So, even if I were ruling the world and my " honest concept of artistic freedom " were state policy, (which is rather absurd, to consider that I would think that I am qualified to be the arbiter of world opinion regarding art) ISC would still be publishing and exhibiting whatever they wanted. I just would not be supporting them with my resources or praise if they chose to exhibit works that mocked my standards. Which is a much different thing than works which are not anything like what I do but are at least neutral if not a positive force in the world.
Learn this please: Freedom of expression does not guarantee freedom of appreciative audiences.


I'm done commenting. The obvious is too obvious.

And it only takes a few well-chosen pieces of misinformation to muck the "obvious" up!
Thank you, and good morning.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-07-2007, 01:12 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Is this art?

Quote:
I just would not be supporting them with my resources or praise if they chose to exhibit works that mocked my standards.
Thank you, for clarifying the "issue" further. I guess at a base level we just have a different sense of humor. But then thats really deep actually, as deep as you go. What you can laugh at(mock) is what determines your tolerance, values, appreciation and understanding of life, and the biggie, the absurdity of being human. I just think its pretty damn absurd and theres a lot of good jokes out there. So I leave you with that last line to run with... couldn't leave myself more open to mockery, could I?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-07-2007, 01:47 PM
StevenW's Avatar
StevenW StevenW is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,320
Re: Is this art?

You guys definately need to get out in the studio today and let some of this go, you're wound up tighter than banjo strings over a paper boat. It's a long weekend for me and I intend to capitilize on that. I hope you can too!
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-07-2007, 02:00 PM
JasonGillespie's Avatar
JasonGillespie JasonGillespie is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 429
Re: Is this art?

Quote:
"Art is anything you can get away with." Andy Warhol.
Quote:
Apparently, more and more people have taken this infamous dictum to heart and are running with it as fast as they can. Too bad there isn't a stampeding heard of longhorns catching up to them.

An interesting aside for those who do not know it:
Andy Warhol was one of the original founders of the New York Academy of Art. He lamented his own lack of solid art training and wanted to make sure that an institution existed that was dedicated to traditional art studies. After he died and Vanity Fair was able to go into his apt and take pictures for their memorial article...it was full, literially, of Classical, Renaissance, and Baroque, paintings, sculptures, tapestries, etc....as well as other traditional periods. He had spent sizable portions of his fortune accumulating the art he valued the most.

Warhol was savvy at manipulating the market and knew exactly what to say to get people to buy into his work. From what I've come to know of him through those at the Academy that were there at the beginning...the above quote was most likely said with a wink and a nod because he knew the difference for himself and that was all that really mattered.
__________________
Ancora Imparo
Still I am learning

Michelangelo Buonarroti
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 10-07-2007, 03:10 PM
jOe~'s Avatar
jOe~ jOe~ is offline
Level 10 user
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 3,190
Re: Is this art?

I know what those thousand points of /errr boats need. Color! Look at Christo! This inspiration just came to me as I listen to the CD "Blue Bell Knoll" by the Cocteau Twins. The enlightening liner notes:

cico buff
suckling the mender
spooning good singing gum
a kissed out red floatboat
ella megalast burls forever.

Thats it! Color and the world will be right again.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 10-07-2007, 06:03 PM
Chalice's Avatar
Chalice Chalice is offline
Level 3 user
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 34
Re: Is this art?

Can art be amusing, can it be nonsensical, playfull, non-valuable/valuless?
My 9yo won a highly commended in the Bellingen Art prize the other day, it was something that floats as well, its was made of foam and wax and paper clay on water.
Was it not art because he is only 9 and playfull and did not study for years and made it from non-noble materials?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Sculpture Community, Sculpture.net
International Sculpture Center, Sculpture.org
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Russ RuBert