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  #26  
Old 02-20-2008, 11:37 AM
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GlennT GlennT is offline
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Re: Bronze Sculpture Destroyed, Artist Seeks Moral Support

I don't know, Tired Iron, how you came to the conclusion that I sided with an underdog rather than what should be clear from my posts; I sided with what I believe to be right in this case. Relating my own tale of woe, where I was an "underdog" but did not chose litigation as a problem-solving tool, should have been enough for you to percieve that mine is a stand on principle.
I did not comment initially when the artist was soliciting support, when he was "the underdog" before he won the case, because I did not agree with his position.

Out of respect for free will, however, I refrained from comment until after the case was settled.

Here is another tale of woe...Two years into my career I gave as a gift to an organization my first bronze bust, of a historical person. A year later it was being offered for sale, for less than I paid to have it cast! unfortunately, I did not have enough money to purchase it back at that time. Can you imagine how that made me feel? But my response was not an egocentric cry of "lawsuit!", or a demand that they give me the work back. I determined instead that the work I made would be so good that no one would embarrass me like that again, because they would not want to part with it. I took it as a message that I needed to do a better job rather than attack the narrow-mindedness of someone else.

Occaisonally you read about someone discovering an art masterpiece that has been hidden away in someone's attic. Monet creates a beautiful painting, the Smelg family buys it, grampa Smelg dies and Vivian Smelg-Norpleflorph inherits it but does not care for art, and Professor Surefoot finds it marked $5 at an estate sale. Life is full of suprises.

Make the best art you can make, and hope that it enriches the lives of others. Be not attached...thus you can self-transcend and do even better with the next one.
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  #27  
Old 07-29-2008, 04:22 PM
Shades Shades is offline
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Re: Bronze Sculpture Destroyed, Artist Seeks Moral Support

I must say this has been an interesting discussion I've stumbled upon!

As an artist I am on the fence on this one.

As a commercial artist I have been commissioned to sculpt several bronze historical figures that are still in place to this day (15+ years). However, proud of my artistic accomplishments and flattered by this immense opportunity to have been chosen to create such prominent works....My attachment to them ended months after completion. As far as I'm concerned - I am proud of the work, I was paid both monetarily and with great honor. However - I DID have a contract stipulating that although the work was 'essentially' under a contract agreement - I retained the copyright and exclusive reproduction rights (in the event the statue needed repair or replacement at no additional cost to me). My "job" was done. They own THAT sculpture. If the sculpture is sold with the property and the work(s) is no longer favorable then so be it. I agree it would be a shame to learn that someone thought less of my work to have it destroyed. But, I think I'd rather sue someone for ripping off my work, having it devalued by reproducing it in Peru, selling as a lawn ornament for $200 at Pier1, making gobs of money without my consent or compensation.

I beleive the preservation of art is important. As well as the integrity of the artist. It is as important as preserving our historical landmarks.
The Guggenheim is a national landmark as well as a prominent work of art in itself.
There are many great works of art that are in prominent display that have not been recognized or regarded as such. At least not yet.

More of these types of cases may change that (who knows?)

It would have been a comfort to know that the homeowners association might have had enough consideration for works' artistic value to AT LEAST offer it for sale, before making such an impetuous, unconscionable decision to destroy it.

Not sure where I stand on this one.....They own it.

I create art because I love to. I create art for a paycheck.

shades
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  #28  
Old 07-31-2008, 08:46 PM
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Blacksun Blacksun is offline
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Re: Bronze Sculpture Destroyed, Artist Seeks Moral Support

word of caution for Mr. Werby, I don't know your tax situation, and am only suggesting that you contact an appropriate professional (CPA, etc.) - BUT, you might want to check on your tax liability for the 150K judgement...you may owe income taxes (federal & state(?)) on the total amount of the judgement - not just the 75K you got after the attorneys fee. Check with a tax professional
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  #29  
Old 08-01-2008, 07:51 PM
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Landseer Landseer is offline
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Re: Bronze Sculpture Destroyed, Artist Seeks Moral Support

Ok, here's what I see and feel about this, not being condescending or crass, nor attacking Andrew personally, just being objective and from the standpoint of "Joe Public" non artist, just me picking up the newspaper and reading this story let's say.

My first thought would be, copyright, propriety rights laws, license, morality, humanity and all of that set aside for the moment, I see that the sculptor was commissioned to create this bronze, created the work and was properly *PAID* the agreed upon price both parties had a meeting of the minds over back in the 80's when this work was transferred to the new OWNER and set on the base where it stayed for some 20 years.

Along comes a new owner who PAID for the buildig/ land and whatever was on it as a package deal, and for whatever reason they decide this thing out front is junk, dump it along with whatever renovation debris, furniture, carpeting etc they wanted to be rid of.

Along comes the original sculptor and he wants to sue under the new moral rights for art, ok, fine, the law is there, but the law is where I see the problem lay.
You are now as a result being paid TWICE for the same work you were already properly and fully paid for in 1980 whatever year it was...

Using that same logic, then the carpeting company who installed the broadloom carpet, the furniture maker whose furniture was bought for the rooms, the lighting maker who installed the light fixtures etc etc should be able to now sue and be paid again a second time for the items and work they did that is now in the dumpster, destroyed.

I fail to see any logic in that action, if you allow one then the rest should be as well. One can argue the wood furniture is artistic and designed by an artist, the lighting fixtures- same thing.

I fully see and support the idea and law that those same building owners can't take the bronze off the base, make a COPY of it and start producing COPIES, but it was already PAID FOR in full and the maker of it should not be paid for the same work TWICE- it is not in your hands to sell etc if it's on the base mounted still, or in the dumpster long gone, either way it's not in your hands and no longer yours to sell- it was sold once already.

Oh Blacksun, I believe court judgements and proceeds from lawsuits are not taxed.
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  #30  
Old 08-01-2008, 08:10 PM
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Landseer Landseer is offline
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Re: Bronze Sculpture Destroyed, Artist Seeks Moral Support

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
Not all business people are as rich as all that and can't just hand over 150k or whatever for attorney's and litigants. I'm sure that hurt them.

Thanks again,

Steve
Nah, they are a business, they'll just pass those costs along to the renters or whomever they deal with, that is what a lot of people don't seem to understand about businesses- ALL costs are simply passed along to customers.
So if you tax, fine or sue some company for this that or the other thing, they won't be paying it and they especially won't be paying it if their insurance company pays it- *YOU* all will, because they will simply add that into their prices and eventually recoup it all back and then some- eventually making a profit on that.

If their insurance paid it, you will find the next time you renew your insurances for your house, life, health, car etc the premiums have gone up- they have, haven't they? now you know why- the insurance co's pay out millions in losses to claims, and they raise the rates for everyone to get that back- they HAVE to, otherwise they would not be in business, they are IN business to make a profit not charity.

You windfall tax oil companies, they'll raise the cost of gas a few cents and eventually get it back.
There is no such thing as a win when you sue/tax/fine/cheat a business- they dont pay anything- YOU do with higher costs and prices or the goods/services you want are no longer available to you.

So if this home whatever association paid out $150K plus attorney's fees, that will be passed along in the form of rent increases and fees.
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  #31  
Old 08-01-2008, 08:58 PM
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StevenW StevenW is offline
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Re: Bronze Sculpture Destroyed, Artist Seeks Moral Support

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landseer View Post
Nah, they are a business, they'll just pass those costs along to the renters or whomever they deal with, that is what a lot of people don't seem to understand about businesses- ALL costs are simply passed along to customers.
So if you tax, fine or sue some company for this that or the other thing, they won't be paying it and they especially won't be paying it if their insurance company pays it- *YOU* all will, because they will simply add that into their prices and eventually recoup it all back and then some- eventually making a profit on that.

If their insurance paid it, you will find the next time you renew your insurances for your house, life, health, car etc the premiums have gone up- they have, haven't they? now you know why- the insurance co's pay out millions in losses to claims, and they raise the rates for everyone to get that back- they HAVE to, otherwise they would not be in business, they are IN business to make a profit not charity.

You windfall tax oil companies, they'll raise the cost of gas a few cents and eventually get it back.
There is no such thing as a win when you sue/tax/fine/cheat a business- they dont pay anything- YOU do with higher costs and prices or the goods/services you want are no longer available to you.

So if this home whatever association paid out $150K plus attorney's fees, that will be passed along in the form of rent increases and fees.

Umm, well see.. I do own my own business, in fact two of them and they do quite well, one over a million and the other will get there.

You're right, the HOA won't take the hit, the owners won't let them so they'll cut PAYROLL, which just means a couple of single, pregnant secrataries get let go. THAT my friend is the reality of business.

There's no free lunch anywhere, insurance, higher ups, lower downs, everyone is expendable except Nazi Pelosi, who just went on vacation and left us all in the lurch so her beachfront property's won't have any of those nasty old oil rigs blocking their 20 million dollar beach views. Oh wait, they want to drill 50-200 miles off shore, couldn't see them anyway..

The windfall profits the government is making off oil is disgusting, 30 cents per gallon to govt and 10 cents per gallon to the oil company and shareholders. The shareholders (unlike the picture the nutty libs like to paint of the fat, old, white, rich robber barrons, smoking cigars and laughing it up in their executive suites) are mostly your every day investors (now labeled "speculators") who have a wide-spread portfolio like me. Many of these people rely on those profits for things like their retirement and many others are just plain old minimum wage counter-working slurpee sellers.

I disagree that a sculpture is the same as a rug or granite counter top, but I do feel that intent should have played a greater role in the interpretation of this suit. I do not think that the HOA had the slightest clue that they were doing anything wrong, most of them are just low wage 20k a year employees who have barely escaped working at Arby's..
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  #32  
Old 08-01-2008, 09:11 PM
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GlennT GlennT is offline
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Re: Bronze Sculpture Destroyed, Artist Seeks Moral Support

I agree with most all of what Landseer wrote about this. I do want to point out that not in every case can a business pass on the expense of a lawsuit to the customer. In some cases, that would raise their rates above that which the market will bear, or far enough above that of the competion as to force them to lose business. More likely for a small business than a larger one to be forced out of business as a result of a frivolous lawsuit.

I see this as a taking advantage of a murky legalism to satisfy the greed and wounded pride of the artist, at the expense of other artists. Such cases could make building owners decide that commissioning a work of art is not worth this kind of potential trouble. Since such a legal precedant now exists, if I were a business owner, I would have a commissioned artist sign a carefully worded waiver as protection against this type of action.
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  #33  
Old 08-01-2008, 10:53 PM
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StevenW StevenW is offline
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Re: Bronze Sculpture Destroyed, Artist Seeks Moral Support

Are we all gonna have to sign carefully worded contracts next time we buy a rug? Just checkin..

"Change" is upon us! lol
New cheeseburger factories are now illegal in L.A., govt stealing from the rich to make themselves richer and erm, what's next?

Did all those poor Russians fair better when Stalin stole from their "bourgois"? Tap, tap, tap... The answer is NO for those sitting in back of the class...
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  #34  
Old 08-03-2008, 01:30 PM
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Landseer Landseer is offline
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Re: Bronze Sculpture Destroyed, Artist Seeks Moral Support

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennT View Post
I agree with most all of what Landseer wrote about this. I do want to point out that not in every case can a business pass on the expense of a lawsuit to the customer. In some cases, that would raise their rates above that which the market will bear, or far enough above that of the competion as to force them to lose business. More likely for a small business than a larger one to be forced out of business as a result of a frivolous lawsuit.
That can be the case in some industries, businesses and trades, but keep in mind that ALL industries, businesses and trades would have the SAME labilities. The risk differentials might be largely dependent on the SIZE of the company- the larger the company the more risk.

Some businesses that provide services the public doesn't HAVE to have and can forego if the price is higher than the public is willing to pay- for example, a self-serve car wash- a working family might pay $2.50 to run the Buick thru and get it clean now and then, if it was $15 they'd probably say screw it and not wash the car or hose it off in their driveway. Thus the self-serve car wash could go out of business if they raised the rates too much.

You NEED a mechanic to get your car repaired or towed, you NEED a dentist and a doctor, so if the costs of that goes up you don't have much of a choice.
In this bronze' case, people NEED an apartment to live in, no matter how high the rents go (within reason of course) there will always be someone who will rent it.
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