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  #101  
Old 06-11-2010, 04:40 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

When I first read about Kennywood, I thought, cool, what a riot, a theme park based on the South Park character. Imagine my disappointment.
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  #102  
Old 06-11-2010, 05:12 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

To give jOe and Ries the benefit of the doubt, I will assume you two still do not fully understand the question.

I can believe that you think that the shark in the tank is to you more revealing about the 20th century mind than a Disney movie. That is because you are living in a historical stream of thought that has a dialoque about the frigging shark in the tank.

But imagine that there is no other context except a film and a shark in a tank.
My best guess is that from the shark in the tank, and no context around it, it would tell a future archeologist that someone, perhaps a zoo or a medical lab, had preserved a shark in a tank. And besides the science involved in so doing, that's about it.

From the Disney film, all sorts of things about character, language, costume, mythology, dramatic meter, archetypes, morals, etc could be observed WHETHER OR NOT THEY WERE ACCURATELY DEPICTING 20TH CENTURY THOUGHT AS YOU OR ANYONE ELSE WOULD HAVE IT DEPICTED.

And this is why I think more cannot be said. If this seemingly obvious difference in the amount of content for analysis that these two different examples provide is not understood, where do we have a basis for clear communication?

So what if you don't like that Disney is unrealistically free of negativity, or sterile, or whatever you don't like about it. That is totally irrelevant to the point. It probably would have been a lot easier for you if I had chosen "Easy Rider" instead of Disney as an example, but I was responding to the instant branding of Disney as "not art" and hoping to stretch ones perceptions a little about this. And not to any conclusion that i have drawn, because I really don't have one.

I might also point out that I have never in my life been to Disneyland, and thus have no opinion one way or the other about it. I prefer nature and sports to amusement parks. And I don't have any Disney cartoon movies on tape or DVD. I'm not trying to wave the Disney flag here, just trying to have a conversation, and not even sure why any more.
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  #103  
Old 06-11-2010, 05:20 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

believe.
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  #104  
Old 06-11-2010, 06:14 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Quote:
To give jOe and Ries the benefit of the doubt, I will assume you two still do not fully understand the question.
To which the reply is: it is you who do not understand not only your own question, but its proper answer. Go to the movie thread for the link to Sister Wendy's comments on Piss Christ, tape #6. Then watch the remainder of the series, in backwards order; 5,4,3,2,1,. She gets "IT", art AND religion. She is one one of the most enlightened people out there. But she only commented on art and religion, not Disneyland.
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  #105  
Old 06-11-2010, 07:13 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Fine, but what has further distraction and obfuscation have to do with the questioned I asked?

"it is you who do not understand not only your own question"
Sheesh squared!!!

"She gets "IT", art AND religion. "

Yes, undoubtedly you are the go to guy for knowing who gets "IT" on both art and religion.

Sister Wendy is a smart cookie, nontheless.

Last edited by GlennT : 06-12-2010 at 09:13 AM.
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  #106  
Old 06-11-2010, 11:35 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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Of the following two examples from our modern culture, which do you think draws a closer parallel to the art of ancient Greek vases; Disney's animated film or book of the story of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, or Hirst's Shark in a tank of formaldehyde?
It's a vexed question. A film is not a fair comparison to the static objectness of the Grecian urn or Hirst's shark. The urn is able to project cultural significance because of the implied narrative or representational depiction. The film IS pure narrative because it is many, many individual images. Choose one cell from the film and ask the same question in comparison to Hirst's work.

I like the hypothetical questions you pose regarding Hirst's shark. Perhaps future generations wont understand it as art at all! Likewise, perhaps we ascribe too much value to ancient objects that were once little more than commonplace utilitarian objects.
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  #107  
Old 06-12-2010, 12:10 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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Yes, undboutedly you are the go to guy for knowing who gets "IT" on both art and religion.
Hardly. Bill Moyers is way ahead of me, as anyone should be able to to tell from his shows and especially the interview with Sister Wendy. There are countless others. I do sometimes recognize those who aren't deluded.
Quote:
Fine, but what has further distraction and obfuscation have to do with the questioned I asked?
Its all related and to the point. You ask me to explain quite often and when I do, or point to someone much better equipped than myself you say I'm offering "distraction and obfuscation". If, as a person of faith, you don't get the message from a kindred spirit in Sister Wendy, there is nothing I can do.
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  #108  
Old 06-12-2010, 08:10 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

There were painters working out great formalities on those ceramic "canvasses". No doubt they also did such (to a greater degree) on the flat murals that didnt survive. If it is only incidental that the thing was a vessel and issues of foreshortening (or any other 2-d formality) were being confronted and celebrated then the thing is Art. But if its just another decorative depiction or ode to a god then its an urn...just an urn.

The shark will be easily recognized by future generations as one of those plain ol utilitarian things people did as a method to wealth and celebrity. Hirst, and a host of others, will be remembmered......just an urn.

Hmmm, well, sounds like its not cool to like to go to Disneyland. Seems us artfarts arent suppose to like such common stuff. Oh well, I never did figure out what was cool...what artfarts were supposed to like.

And responding to the narrative "menacing" qualities of the fabbed spiders is exactly the same as responding to the cuteness of a giant winged-eared elephant. They are BOTH just exercizes in affecting a tourist with a prescribed and obvious visual sensation. They are the same thing.
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  #109  
Old 06-12-2010, 10:36 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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And responding to the narrative "menacing" qualities of the fabbed spiders is exactly the same as responding to the cuteness of a giant winged-eared elephant. They are BOTH just exercizes in affecting a tourist with a prescribed and obvious visual sensation. They are the same thing.

I think the same thing about giant explorer guitars, endless columns, and gates to hell- along with everything I have ever made- because what you have described is how every human being responds to every 3 dimensional object.

When it gets interesting, of course, is when the viewer ignores what the artist intended.
You can write all the prescriptions you want. But in the real world, they aint gonna get filled.

And I didnt say Disneyland wasnt "cool".
If it isnt cool, then I am sure not "cool", as I have been 4 or 5 times- I said, TO ME, its soul destroying. This is a fact about MY reaction, not any kind of judgement of you- I am merely reporting on the physical, emotional, and mental reactions I got the last few times I went.
Its gross. Plastic, fake, manipulative, expensive, and designed from the get go to be a massive case of blue balls on every level. Plus, they put something in the air there, similar to the stuff they pump into WalMarts AC system, that dulls the brain, sickens the soul, and makes you a listless consumer.
Been there, done that, puked afterwards.

You want the real experience that Disney is trying to replicate, take the kids to Tokyo for a week. Better food, better rides, more ridiculous costumes, crazier experience in every way...
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  #110  
Old 06-12-2010, 10:47 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

It gets interesting when an individual can imagine the throes of another individual's creative process...and yer right, it doesnt make a diference WHAT the thing happens to look like. When a "viewer" can make a personal connection to the personal connection of another's act of creative excess and can walk away with a piece of that experience, gains have been made. Such experiences do not occur by the diluted efforts of multiple humans. No matter how big and well crafted the thing, it is not as pertinent as the solitary trials and uncalled-for tribulations of an artist at work. The sensation of the "doing" is ALL the reward, and a tidbit of that resonates in good Art...but just a tidbit. So we forward thinking antlings would be well served to accumulate tidbits where they are available and NOT try to wring tidbits out of opulences or charades that are obviously (to a discerning thinker) unyielding.
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  #111  
Old 06-12-2010, 11:20 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

I couldnt disagree more.
The "process", the "act", the "trial", the "tribulation", the "effort", the "sensation"- these are all transient, momentary nerves firing in the head of the artist, totally irrelevant to anyone but the artist in the moment.

You can have all the fun you want, and, just like you, I do, making the shit.

But once its made, its got a life of its own- much like kids.
Maybe yours are too young for you to have this 200lb sledge hammer slammed into your head every 30 seconds on a daily basis- but the reality is, artworks, like kids, could care less about all those experiences that you prize so much.

They dont look back, they dont say thanks, they dont even remember you exist most of the time (kids, or artworks)

You birth em, you sweat, and toil, and "experience", and then, its all completely meaningless to the result.

You could vanish into dust tommorow, along with all those fancy words that describe the cool electrical effects that happened in your meat brain- and the work would survive on its own, making its own agenda, telling its own story, making new friends whom you wouldnt even like.

Artists are usually the worst judges of their own work- they are too busy remembering the experience of making the stuff.
We think things are important for the wrong reasons, and like things based on body memories, full stomachs, adrenaline and sore muscles- all totally meaningless once the paint is dry or the weld is cooled.

With art, just like kids, the world is telling you how meaningless your own ego is, and how you were just a donor- but, to keep making the next piece, we have to ignore those truths, and keep feeding our brains those feel good chemicals. The chemicals are real, they make the motor run, but the meaning aint in the chemistry.

I tell myself the same lies. It works, and I make things.
Doesnt make em true.
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  #112  
Old 06-12-2010, 12:54 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

gettin' pretty philosophical in here.
All we are is transient moments, and the best you can do is to squeeze your own peculiar cocktail out of as many moments as possible. sometimes the detritus is received favorably. sometimes not. Keep squeezing.
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  #113  
Old 06-12-2010, 01:15 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Artists are the ONLY proper judges of their own work...having been there. And it is not a serviceable simile "art is like kids". We didnt "make" the kids, and plenty of artists dont know and dont care about the experience of having kids. Kids can indeed be one of our springboards, (along with the bowls of fruit, mythologies and variations on the circle) but they have nothing in common with the experience of manipulating conscious-less matter.

I dont ever have fun when I make Art. I have fun at Disneyland.

And it doesnt matter one bit how or what an artifact "communicates" to passersby, viewers, audiences and general consider-ers. Such is not something that should distract the go-time or taint the glory of the 12.3% or cause a shift of momentum by afflicting with aims towards "saying" anything to anyone.

maybe your pertinent instances fire-away in a transient manner but mine are quite elongated and enduring. In fact they quite wear me out...I eventually crumple back into the restful 87.7% Where there are kids and burgers and tasks and regular stuff to accomplish.

I dont think I would like Tokyo...too exotic...are there Walmarts there? What if I lose my suitcase? Pretty lights like Times Square?
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  #114  
Old 06-12-2010, 01:48 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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Artists are the ONLY proper judges of their own work...

And it doesnt matter one bit how or what an artifact "communicates" to passersby, viewers, audiences and general consider-ers. Such is not something that should distract the go-time or taint the glory of the 12.3% or cause a shift of momentum by afflicting with aims towards "saying" anything to anyone.
Oh no!, artists are the worst judges of their own work - and their opinion doesn't matter much anyways. It is ALL about what the viewer brings and takes away. I know nearly nothing about what I make - except what I am told by others.
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  #115  
Old 06-12-2010, 01:49 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

After all of this discussion, one thing is clear-

A blue sky.

Otherwise, we come across as we are, artists who are so engaged in a personal creative process and understanding of art that makes perfect sense to us and is nearly incomprehensible to the next person...at least, when the words get in the way.
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  #116  
Old 06-12-2010, 02:00 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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Oh no!, artists are the worst judges of their own work - and their opinion doesn't matter much anyways. It is ALL about what the viewer brings and takes away. I know nearly nothing about what I make - except what I am told by others.
so you're just an oblivious automaton? a vessel to be filled by invisible pixies & the viewer? I know your life is all fodder for art, so are you just in a constant state of indistinguishable euphoria?
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  #117  
Old 06-12-2010, 02:11 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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so you're just an oblivious automaton? a vessel to be filled by invisible pixies & the viewer? I know your life is all fodder for art, so are you just in a constant state of indistinguishable euphoria?
I just make stuff. Others give it value. What it means to me occasionally aligns with the opinions of others - but not often. I'd much rather turn my work over to the masses and let them figure it out even that means the work ends up just propping open a shed door.

The pixies are no help at all - but there sure are plenty of gremlins in my studio.

Last edited by cheesepaws : 06-12-2010 at 03:32 PM.
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  #118  
Old 06-12-2010, 02:21 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

If you must have assistants, the gremlins are better than the pixies. They are easy to stimulate to the proper level of intensity and they have a high pain tolerance. And they like beer (the pixies like tea).
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  #119  
Old 06-13-2010, 09:53 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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I just make stuff. Others give it value. What it means to me occasionally aligns with the opinions of others - but not often. I'd much rather turn my work over to the masses and let them figure it out even that means the work ends up just propping open a shed door.

The pixies are no help at all - but there sure are plenty of gremlins in my studio.
indicating a stature that means you answer to no one

the poltergeists are way better at cleaning the studio
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  #120  
Old 06-13-2010, 11:02 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

E you never have fun while bending a great big unk of steel ? I find this difficult to believe. What about scouring the scrap yard? Cutting grinding welding burning melting.....
You got to have some fun doing this man. Whats the point if not?
It cant all be about blah blah blah art art art talk talk talk . Can it? should it? I dont think so !
Have some fun
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  #121  
Old 06-13-2010, 11:06 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Yes, tromping through the scrap IS fun and yes that is a part of the "process" - but the manipulation and fabrication is always duressed. Of course I am aware of the satisfaction that will come, and that is pleasurable, but I wouldnt say the bending is fun.
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  #122  
Old 06-13-2010, 11:24 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

The whole process, at least the creative part of it is fun, the rest is just hard work. but at the end of the day when you're dog tired, having a cold one and surveying the days progress, that's when the satisfaction kicks in.
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  #123  
Old 06-13-2010, 02:20 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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but I wouldnt say the bending is fun.
Then, as Grommet said earlier in another context, you must be doing it wrong.
With the right tool, nothing is more gleeful than bending metal, hot or cold.

Torches are messy, loud, ungraceful and crude. Any allure they have quickly pales beside the applied leverage of a hossfeld bender, easily bending 1" round stainless cold into pretzels.
Or the big chicago finger brake, making 1/8" plate stand to attention.
Or the power rolls, making thick sheet curl up and say uncle.
Or the Curvatricci, my sexy italian power angle rolls- there is something about hitting the foot pedal, and watching 1/2" x 4" flat bar curve the hard way, quietly rolling over and giving up, that is inherently amusing, satisfying, and, yes, fun.

And dont even get me started on the ironworker.
1" holes in 3/4" plate, soundlessly, effortlessly, and quickly, gets my juices flowing faster than about anything else.

But all of that is just meaningless grunt work- I got 4 or 5 ways to bend, or cut, or weld most anything- its just technique, and not where the real fun lies.

Actually seeing the work go in new directions as you go, and seeing new and unexpected results is my main fun producer.
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  #124  
Old 06-13-2010, 03:06 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

No machines can wrap a 6" x 1" x 60 " strip of plate around the 14 foot high section of an asymetrical 3000lb piece of gesturally composed sculpture-in-the -making. I can do that though with just me alone.

No machine can thrill me (or infuriate me) with an unanticipated disaster or adrenaline my efforts with fear and trembling.

No machine can nuance the nose of a life-and-a-half head atop a life-and-a-half body atop a impossibly heavy 4 foot base of glorious junk as the whole "character" imperfects its way to something I couldnt imagine having to live without.

Machines, and I have a few, are bland permitters, one-dimensional doers, only wishing to level the playing field. Facility is the constant hope of nature, a streamlining and "easing" of the possibilities only gets you to same-ness. Production line, etc.

No machine can bend steel so that it LOOKS like it does when I do it with my bare hands. Not unlike a signature...every human being has his/her own "way" of moving that cannot be duplicated. Machines are made FOR duplication of task.

It is possible to be delighted, impacted, verified, vitalized, fueled, enriched, sublimed, and IMPROVED without ANY fun having occurred.

And then, like Jeff said, there is always the "after"; when one can bask in the overcoming...wrap the wounds and regard your efforts with a cold beer. THAT is good fun (and then fouling the kiddy pool with an inspired leap inside, fully-clothed).
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  #125  
Old 06-13-2010, 03:58 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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Actually seeing the work go in new directions as you go, and seeing new and unexpected results is my main fun producer.
yep, still being able to surprise yourself is the fun thing.
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