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  #76  
Old 06-10-2010, 09:49 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

We are quick to say that Disney is not art, yet I don't see much difference in effect, only perhaps attitude and technique, between large theme park sculpture, or Macy's parade creationsm and those large shiny "balloon" animals by Koons.

And there are books on "The Art of Walt Disney", so some people seem to see Disney as having produced art even if we who are intellectually superior think otherwise.
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  #77  
Old 06-10-2010, 09:58 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Every individual is permitted to identify Art for him/herself. Exactly as much as every individual is permitted to "dismiss-away" those things they decide are not art.
Agreeing to disagree must be the foundation of community and civilization. All the bad stuff happens because folks cant quite do this. Agreeing to disagree is also nourishing to the intellect - as samples of surrogate or parallel thought.

Plenty gets called art that is not art for me (the Disney and the Koons). But there are more possibilities than there are instances. Changes occur. The churn.
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  #78  
Old 06-10-2010, 10:45 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Well said, e.

Here is further food for thought.

We have in our art museums ancient Greek vases of great beauty. They were functional vessels, but they also were "canvases" for art which depicted interpretations of the mythology or religious beliefs of their times, along with depictions of heros and of daily life. We look back at that culture and learn about what they thought from interpreting such art.

Of the following two examples from our modern culture, which do you think draws a closer parallel to the art of ancient Greek vases; Disney's animated film or book of the story of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, or Hirst's Shark in a tank of formaldehyde?

One is the result of artists interpreting a myth or some such tale and translating it into vsiual imagery with a distinctive style, and the other is...what?...a zoological specimen?...an circus act for the "elite"?

Which of these two examples would give a future race greater insight when studying the minds of a culture with which they were otherwise unfamiliar?
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  #79  
Old 06-10-2010, 10:56 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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Which of these two examples would give a future race greater insight when studying the minds of a culture with which they were otherwise unfamiliar?
I say Disney this time, only because you remind me of one of the seven dwarfs--dopey. Grommet and Rika will have to arm wrestle for the Snow White part.
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  #80  
Old 06-10-2010, 11:26 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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I say Disney this time, only because you remind me of one of the seven dwarfs--dopey. Grommet and Rika will have to arm wrestle for the Snow White part.
Me too

Bob
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  #81  
Old 06-10-2010, 11:47 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

It is so reassuring to know that one's efforts at discourse are not in vain.
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  #82  
Old 06-10-2010, 11:57 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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It is so reassuring to know that one's efforts to discourse is not in vain.

Quite right Glenn, feed Damion's shark a diet of Disney and he will poop plaster gnomes--THE PEOPLES CHOICE.

Art has never been about circus--circus are about circus for Vulgate or hoy-poly--decoration is Decoration*--Art is provocation to thought

RD

*Come see The Art Gecko--even the cavemen prefer it.
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  #83  
Old 06-10-2010, 11:57 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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It is so reassuring to know that one's efforts to discourse is not in vain
" I haven't had a chance to ask the questioners the questions they've been questioning." George W. Bush

"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream" Barry Goldwater

There, I did my part.

Last edited by jOe~ : 06-10-2010 at 12:02 PM. Reason: double whammy!
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  #84  
Old 06-10-2010, 02:52 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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Me too

Bob
The role of Snow White is all yours as far as I'm concerned. I don't think I could be that chirpy & keep a straight face.
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  #85  
Old 06-10-2010, 04:08 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Well I'm saving up for Disney right now. Cant wait to get there. Rollercoasters, giant salty turkey legs, Margaritas by the poolside, carousing with the kids, maybe even a hilarious art-criticism book on the hotel nightstand (cause its THAT kind of time). I wont see any sculpture, but there is lavish spectacle and visual treats abound.
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  #86  
Old 06-10-2010, 05:32 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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The role of Snow White is all yours as far as I'm concerned. I don't think I could be that chirpy & keep a straight face.
Ha Its not the face that will be straight--Robin Williams, "The Mouse does not have a wewe"
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  #87  
Old 06-10-2010, 06:23 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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Ha Its not the face that will be straight--Robin Williams, "The Mouse does not have a wewe"
Not sure what the above has to do with you playing the role. Ya just gotta believe & i don't believe.
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  #88  
Old 06-11-2010, 09:51 AM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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Ha Its not the face that will be straight--Robin Williams, "The Mouse does not have a wewe"
And again, SHEESH!
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  #89  
Old 06-11-2010, 12:41 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Personally, I cannot think of anything more soul destroying than 3 or 4 days at disneyworld. I would rather be waterboarded.
When they were that age, I took my kids to real amusement parks like Kennywood, in Pittsburgh, instead, but thats another story.

Anyway, I think the mouse not having a wee wee is actually the most relevant thing said lately-

It describes exactly the difference between Bourgeois and Disney.

Nothing Disney ever did had a wee wee.
Because nothing was scarier to him, or more antithetical to his entire corporate message, than sex.

And, of course, it is absolutely central to everything Louise ever did.

Her spider has an egg sac. Even the sound of that would get those christians out picketing. With big marble eggs!

No disney character ever had nipples, much less genitals, and every disney animal is relentlessly anthromorphosized.

Which is the exact opposite of her spiders, which are very much "other". They are scary, and alien, and not cute and pretty with big woogly eyes.

Disney is about infantilizing everything, about taking all the risk, bodily fluids, sadness and lust and anger, and, ultimately, joy, out of life, and leaving a clean, safe, sickeningly cute empty husk.

Real spiders are hairy.
There is nothing more terrifying to the disney consumer than a hairy female anything.
Real spiders are carnivourous, and often eat their mates and their young, which Bourgeois was well aware of.
Disney is all about denying death even exists.

Oh- and by the way- I pick the shark. Hands down, no contest.
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  #90  
Old 06-11-2010, 01:17 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Spot on Ries. Of course, I would have picked the shark. But, I couldn't resist humor over obvious truth. Life is just too funny sometimes, the way it sets up its lessons. It is cruel and painful too, hence the art of L.B. There is no life in Disney. They created a fantasy that could be marketed, and they were experts in that arena too. But, hey, I've never smoked cigarettes, and they've been marketed quite well too, like all consumers goods, alcohol and religion and art. The biggest use of images and icons are mind persuaders-- the corporations and interest groups. That is why art can and must do whatever the fuck it wants to do, to keep us awake.
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  #91  
Old 06-11-2010, 01:54 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Disney movies have more in common with LB than pehaps Disneyworld.
http://www.history.vt.edu/Barrow/His...ngs/bambi.html
Interpreting the harshness of the world for children where LB did the same for adults.
I'm guessing Disney understood that there's more to sex than nipples too. Though that seems to be a focalpoint for men and the recent fatwa.
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  #92  
Old 06-11-2010, 02:06 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Grommet, couldn't read that entire dissertation. Wonder if anyone does? Last year while using a loud gas powered bush cutter, a Bambi slowly trotted by and brushed my leg, while I was madly wacking brush. My wolfhound mix was a few feet behind, taking it for a friendly stroll. However, I'm quite sure this didn't have a Disney ending. I know he has a fondness for venison.
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  #93  
Old 06-11-2010, 02:09 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Having two kids, I have watched most of the Disney movies, both animated and live action, on the order of 50 to 100 times EACH.

I see no resemblance with Louise in them.

Nipples or no nipples (and I am not hung up on them, they are just an obvious and everyday real life item strangely missing from the Disney world) there is NO sex in any Disney movie.

Every birth is immaculate, every mother is a madonna, and there are only fathers at all in maybe half of the movies.

Sex is dirty, smelly, messy, far too real for Disney, and the crux of Bourgeois' art for exactly those reasons. Plus, it might hurt AND be fun at the same time. Which the audience of eternal children Disney is aiming at creating could not handle, could not even conceive of.

Of course, you could substitute the word "life" for sex, and it would apply equally to Disney- everything vital and real about life is missing from Disney, and is present in Bourgeois.
Difficulty. Pain. Hard work. Compromise. Dissapointment. Ambiguity. Moral Failings. Death.

I like the big spiders.
I dont like Disney.

The older I get, the more I realize that life is complex, and must include both good and bad, which her work does, to me.

But hey- if you wanna go watch "Pete's Dragon", its fine with me.
I have seen it already, myself, a few dozen times.
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  #94  
Old 06-11-2010, 02:25 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

so I looked at kennywood & saw that it was a place to go & puke. We have one of those nearby. I expect we may go someday, but my 20 year old still gets carsick, so rides don't have any real appeal to us.
Epcot center was pretty cool as was the aquarium restaurant. Simple things like the choreographed fountain that's flush with the ground so kids can play in it were a big hit. The (albeit packaged)cultural samplings that are available is an accessible introduction to kids. And the island/zoo area was beautiful & memorable. And it's all about memories with the kids, isn't it?

If sex is dirty, smelly & messy for you, I'm sorry. Earthy would be a better description. perhaps you're not doing it right.
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  #95  
Old 06-11-2010, 03:01 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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If sex is dirty, smelly & messy for you, I'm sorry. Earthy would be a better description. perhaps you're not doing it right
Ahhhh, if only all women could be like Snow White, fresh, clean, odorless, easily and patiently multi-orgasmic. Earthy? Yuck!
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  #96  
Old 06-11-2010, 03:09 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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Ahhhh, if only all women could be like Snow White, fresh, clean, odorless, easily and patiently multi-orgasmic. Earthy? Yuck!
oh well, 6 out of 7's not bad...
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  #97  
Old 06-11-2010, 03:29 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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Oh- and by the way- I pick the shark. Hands down, no contest.
"The single biggest problem of communication is the illusion that it has taken place" George Bernard Shaw

Ries, you might have paid more careful attention to the question posed, which was not "which of the two examples do you prefer?" That type of question on this forum would provide little for insights or suprises.

Pondering how quick we are to say, "This is art" or "This is not art", the question actually was attempting to have the responder step outside of their own mental box for a moment and imagine being a person thousands of years in the future, trying to piece together an understanding of 20th century earth culture. Would such a person be able to learn or perceive more about the thought process of 20th century minds (whether or not conclusions were correct) by looking at a Disney movie such as "Snow White", or by looking at a dead shark in a tank of formaldehyde?

If your choice is still the shark in the tank...there is nothing more that can be said.

Last edited by GlennT : 06-11-2010 at 03:57 PM.
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  #98  
Old 06-11-2010, 04:21 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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If your choice is still the shark in the tank...there is nothing more that can be said.
For me, first choice absolutely would still be the shark. And I understood you question perfectly. But I see that I would still end up replying as I did:
Quote:
I say Disney this time, only because you remind me of one of the seven dwarfs--dopey.
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  #99  
Old 06-11-2010, 04:29 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

Theres always more to be said.

And I was, actually, answering your exact question.

There is no doubt in my mind, that, given THOSE two choices, the imaginary future observer would learn more from the shark about who we really are...


Its interesting you choose to contrast Snow White with greek art-
As it happens, I was born before videotapes, and instead of watching Snow White endlessly, like kids today, I pursued the quaint antique habit of reading.

One of my favorites, of course, was the Illiad and the Odyssey.
Written by Homer, a greek.

It features everything that Snow White is lacking-
War, murder, torture, disfigurement, adultery, gluttony, lust, shameful pride, arrogance, greed, stupidity, and all the reality of life.
Sex, of course, figures prominently- there is homosexual sex, pedophilia, lesbians, beastiality, and, again and again, sex with the Gods, who will basically bang anything that moves, and a lot that doesnt. They enjoy changing genders, playing horrible tricks, and lying thru their teeth to get their rocks off.

The greeks, I would say, had a basic, down to earth understanding of real life that is totally lacking in Disney.

Later on, in 9th grade, we read the Lysistrata- a gritty depiction of sexual politics that reminds me far more of Louise Bourgeois than Mickey Mouse.

If I was going to nominate a cinematic record for the future, I would lean towards all five seasons of the Wire, myself.

But if I was trying to come up with a sculpture or artwork that corresponded to greek vases, I think Jeff Koons paintings of himself bonking Ciccolina might be a more fair comparison.
I mean, after all, the Greeks were no strangers to nipples or even more naughty bits...
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  #100  
Old 06-11-2010, 04:30 PM
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Re: Louise Bourgeois, RIP

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When they were that age, I took my kids to real amusement parks like Kennywood, in Pittsburgh, instead, but thats another story.
I used to go to Kennywood as a kid. Great fun.

I just watched a movie called Adventureland that was filmed there.
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